[jayaiwhy]

Hi,

I have an issue with ZvZ, mainly on how to deal with Mutalisks properly

My opener for ZvZ is:
14 pool
16 hatch
16 queen
18 spine
17 overlord
17gas
2nd Queen to block ramp

then,
If opponent 14/14, I make a Baneling Nest
If 15 hatch, I sometimes try to play greedy and skip Bane Nest and instead go for Roach tech
If, in rare cases, mirror build order, I get Roaches

My build doesn't include Speedlings and I pretty much turtle until I get roach speed

The issue I'm having is "How to deal with Mutalisks"

I'm pretty much never surprised by Mutas showing up in my base because I scout in time with an Overseer

I usually resort to getting Hydras (because infestors take too long to make, and a decent player will split mutas) and lose because I can't secure a third, Banelings are good, etc.

I would post replays up, but I lost my replays :| (maybe if I bump into the same scenario again, I'll upload it)

I know it would really help to have a replay with this question, but any tips on how to deal with Mutas correctly?

Quick Comments

Bash:

always get ling speed. maybe not immediately, but always.

[iM SundeR]

I loathed mutas in this matchup as well, for so long, but it's actually really easy and kind of fun once you work out what you need to do.

So let's say we're in a situation where I'm on two bases and so is he. There might have been some speedling skirmish early on to test the waters. You need to constantly send single or double lings into his base and scout around - early 4 gases means he is lair teching to either fast infestors, muta, or something elser eally weird. Scout 3 gases, probably a roach push.

So you scout 4 gases and he hasn't made many (or any) roaches at all. You know he's going muta. If you don't like this option of reading your opponent, you can always go a 6 or 7 minute Lair yourself in order to get an Overseer and scout directly. The advantage of this is he might also think you are going muta and overcompensate, or even make the wrong read altogether.

So right now, it's 2 base vs 2 base and you've scouted his Spire. Immediately, I make a macro hatch if I haven't already (if it turns out, after all the speedling and baneling skirmishes, you know you have map control, you can take a third, but it's kind of risky), and make a queen from each Hatchery. Immediately throw down an Infestation Pit as early as you possibly can. You're going to defend his first wave of mutas with 2-3 spores in each base and 5 or so queens. This is long enough to get infestors out, and you have to think of your infestors like Thors. Use them to regain map control and take a third.

There are a lot of different ways you can transition into your third. You can make one round of roaches before you tech to infestors for ground dominance, or you can make a huge round of drones while you are still on two bases, so when your third comes up you are on full saturation (or close to) on 3 bases. From here, you make around 8-12 hydras and push immediately. Turn it into a timing, most preferably a 2-2 roach-hydra-infestor timing or a 2-1 timing. Your 3 base push is going to consist of around 6 infestors, a huge amount of roaches and 8-12 hydras. It's VERY important that you push as SOON as you hit ~170-180 supply (ie, make your 8-12 hydras when you have around 160 supply of roach infestor.

The most common thing muta players are going to do is use mutas to deny your third, while they take their third, drone up and transition into roach infestor hydra just like you. You need to push before he has caught up to you in upgrades. He's going to think he has solid map control and take a fourth and if he's silly he will overdrone and undermake units. Take a fourth as you push, if the timing works and you take out his fourth and his third, continue the push, he won't be able to sustain. If you trade evenly, drone the fourth up and tech to either broodlords or ultras, depending on your chosen lategame style.

The splitting up of mutas that you complained about can be hard to deal with if going straight to infestors, but 5 queens are very good at picking off split up mutas. They have the same ranged damage as a stalker.

[Snx.FigJig]

If you don't have a third and some spores up before mutas come your third will be denied and you shall be so far behind, it makes it very hard to come back. The muta player will be 3 base and can transition into roach infestor while you struggle to take your third, and can just throw roaches at you due to his superior econ.

Also I think Hydras are a very poor choice to transition into and to solely relying on them won't get you far. If I see someone go Hydras I just do a timing with ling bane muta and I win 99% of the time from there since Hydras just melt to the banes and at the least, your third is denied and stuck on 2 base. Infestors are a much better choice, yes they can split and if they do throw down a few IT. It takes some practice to know how many IT to put down, if you should fungal etc but it's well worth the trouble learning. If you secure the third you can turtle with roach infestor and attack, you'll have a stronger army since a chunk of his supply will be in mutas, and your econ will basically be equal so the muta player won't have the advantage that he needs by going mutas. Good creep spread is a must to go from base to base too.

[PiG]

How to spot mutas?

*fast gases
*multiple spines
*no roaches or roach warren (staying on lingbane a long time)

How to react?

1) Roachbane allin - pretty self explanatory, break spines/lings/banes with ur banes and kill everything thats left with roaches. Have to hit before or just as mutas are popping. Even if mutas are out as you're hitting you can still win as they don't kill your shit fast enough and are forced to defend.
*Targabane allin - Check Targa's reps from ACL
*Roach-hydra aggression off 2/3 base - Watch Stephano's stream for this, he streams around midnight AEST, or just go watch his stream vods and find some zvzs.
*Get infestors and steadily take a 3rd, transition into winning. Watch my reps from ACL for this. Basically you just sit on 2 base and add queens + infestors and spread creep + spores/spines towards your 3rd, then take it and just drone it up, go roach-infestor, add a small group of gydras to time with your push.

Now back to you're build.

Get ling speed if you want to be improving at the matchup you absolutely need it. You can get away without it to quite a high level, but you're basically playing quite blind which doesn't help your understanding of the matchup. Speedlings are vital as they allow you to scout your opponent through direct vision and pressure. Scouting in zvz is incredibly important.

If anything not clear or more queries plz reply

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:
	Reere:	that sums it up~
	Theend:	i have learnt the hard way roachbane allin hard counter multa T.T
	mGGDaedalus:	ling speed is 100% vital to the matchup
	Pox:	gogo roachbane

[jayaiwhy]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm keen on trying out Queen + Spores into Infestors

I've been using 14/14 but I dislike the whole speedling baneling wars

One micro mistake and a game can turn around so, I thought I'd use a safer build that skips the speedling battles. But ofcourse, as PiG mentioned, I'm playing in blind with this (I do try to spot the third with overlord and attempt to scout with slow lings)

I can get away with it in Masters, but when it comes to playing top 50 GMs, they just know what to do aha

&I'll check out the replays