[CagnacciKid]

Hey everyone,

I've been laddering a lot recently in preparation for the ladder reset, playing as Zerg and Terran (going to main as Terran for S3, Zerg is just for fun) and I've noticed that I can defeat Protoss and Zerg players quite easily, assuming I don't make major macro mistakes. I put this down to my basic knowledge of the strengths of P and Z, for example:

Against Protoss, I generally need to avoid the mid/late-game deathball of Colossus/Stalker/Sentry/Blah. I can do this by harrassing his expansions, leaving him broke to slow his army growth, or, if his army does manage to grow to a "critical mass", I can use drops and multi-faceted attacks to force him to split up his army into manageable chunks. Usually I win via point one alone.

Against Zerg, I need to stay ahead of him in economy and pressure him to prevent mass droning. I can easily do this with Bio/Mech units, taking a third/fourth expansion if needed, using my pressuring units to scout army composition and building counters back at my base (i.e. if I see mass Mutas, I pump Marines and Thors). Marine/Hellion/Thor works wonders (Tanks always seem so defensively orientated to me).

This is kind of a long-winded way of getting to my point: I can't seem to win against a Terran opponent. I don't know what I should be aiming to do. Trying to handle it like a Protoss opponent has me suiciding raiding parties into Marines and Tanks, whilst trying to out-expand as I would against a Zerg leaves me extremely vulnerable and I usually die to drops. I've had a game of TvT where the two of us just turtled, slow-pushing towards each other - he ended up winning because he pulled SCV's to repair his tanks, and he had equal macro/better micro.

So, against a Terran opponent, what should I be trying to do? Pressure/harrass his economy? Turtle up a deathball and roll into his base? Wait until he's overextended and punish him with multiple drops and distant expansions? I can't seem to find a general "goal" to work towards like I can with P or Z. Please help!

Thanks in advance,

Cheers.

TL;DR: What should I be doing to defeat a Terran opponent?

[PiG]

I would really recommend watching GSL code S if you aren't already. About 50% fo the games are the absolute top level of TvT. TvT you only want to out expand your opponent when you have an advantage so that you won't just die to a hard push. Basically from here it is a war of attrition where positioning and getting the most out of your units is of the utmost importance.

Some important points:

1) Tank/marine/viking/medivac is the simplest and easiest combination to use where you want to hold any watchtowers and have either a contain on your opponent or atleast on your half of the map. with tanks spread out in lines and marines interspersed with them you should be able to hold pushes cost efficiently.

2) As soon as you reach the midgame (and often before then) make sure you are ready for drops with a squad of marines in your main and add turrets all over in the lategame.

Vikings patrolling likely drop/banshee harass locations will help stop these damaging you.

3) Watchtowers/vikings/scans are essential to give your tanks vision. Get used to trying to hold good positions.

4) Practice your spreading so you can use marines to overwhelm tank lines efficiently wherever they are spread to thin.

5) Get comfortable in long drawn-out games where constant macro and preparation for attacks are essential.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[CagnacciKid]

Originally Posted by PiG

I would really recommend watching GSL code S if you aren't already. About 50% fo the games are the absolute top level of TvT. TvT you only want to out expand your opponent when you have an advantage so that you won't just die to a hard push. Basically from here it is a war of attrition where positioning and getting the most out of your units is of the utmost importance.

Thanks! Any particular games I can look up specifically?

Originally Posted by PiG

Some important points:

1) Tank/marine/viking/medivac is the simplest and easiest combination to use where you want to hold any watchtowers and have either a contain on your opponent or atleast on your half of the map. with tanks spread out in lines and marines interspersed with them you should be able to hold pushes cost efficiently.

2) As soon as you reach the midgame (and often before then) make sure you are ready for drops with a squad of marines in your main and add turrets all over in the lategame.

Vikings patrolling likely drop/banshee harass locations will help stop these damaging you.

3) Watchtowers/vikings/scans are essential to give your tanks vision. Get used to trying to hold good positions.

4) Practice your spreading so you can use marines to overwhelm tank lines efficiently wherever they are spread to thin.

5) Get comfortable in long drawn-out games where constant macro and preparation for attacks are essential.

Thanks for the tips! Will definitely focus on these.

Cheers.

[nextbigthing]

try going to blitzshouter's youtube channel and watch marineking prime vs ogs thestc, tvt series of 5 games... hope it will give u more variations in ur builds..

[PiG]

For games in particular I would recomend watching previous seasons of GSL as mech is getting very popular at the top level but requires alot more finesse in how it is played. So anything GSL March to GSL May would be good to look at.

[Yonge]

Great thread mate! I feel like this topic isn't discussed as much. I'm the same as you. I'm fine against P and Z, but vs T I just find it so hard to win unless I get a lucky break where my opponent makes a mistake.

The main pice of advice (which btw, i haven't really taken to heart yet) is control the air (this tags on to what PiG says above). Get vikings to do this. At the same time, get tanks (with all the usual toppings like siege, etc) and marines to back them up. Siege near watch towers or outside the opponents base, depending on the part of the game, and then because siege attack range > tank sight, use the vikings to gain the sight (or scan) to take out their army. Then you inch your way to victory.

Even if I know the above, I can't say I like that type of game...not the most fun match up for me...

For me, the main reason I've won TvT is because I've either bunker rushed to hold them in their base or win the upgrades race!

[ke_ivan]

TvT seems to be more complex these days. As a bronze player, I generally see a lot of cheese, but it just seems that players now are looking for longer more drawn out matches these days. Yesterday, I went 1 rax FE into Marine/Siege Tank/ medivac/ viking against marine/marauder expand into marine/marauder/tank/medivac/viking on shakuras plateau. But because his composition was kinda confused and he didn't abuse his mobility, I just ended up having more siege tanks than him. I'm guessing my macro was better so every time we engaged and we traded armies, i would just gradually have more units. In the end, it really came down to a game of position and attrition. I sieged at the choke on his side of the map, and basically kept his forces from connecting. I had sensor towers around to take away map control, and when he dropped, I took a small squad of marines and a medivac to deal with it. Turret ring and patrolling viking to stop drops. Behind that, I took more bases than him. The game lasted like 45 mins. Of course, I kept on trying to end the game (no! bad move), and kept on losing marines. He went battlecruisers in the end but the vikings just ate them. I also kept on upgrades (3/3 on infantry/ 3/1 on vehicle weapons/ 2/1 on air weapons). In the end I spotted his last mining base.

I guess what I learned from that TvT is:
1) positioning is everything. If you reach an impasse, find a way to make him change his position. (I used a nuke to force his siege tanks back, while I sieged in a better position. He used banshees.)
2) Control the air. More vikings are good. Generally I have 6-8 vikings at any one time, and depending on how many vikings he had. I also have 2 vikings patrolling possible drop/banshee points. In late game, I build turrets too.
3) Build some sensor towers if you have the money. It helps you spot for drops.
4) at 3/4 base get a second factory, that really helps.
5) Keep up on upgrades. They help your units last tons longer.

You're probably a better player than me, but I guess the principles are the same for marine/siege tank/medivac/viking. Better positioning with air dominance wins the day. Better upgrades help your stuff last longer. In the end, it leads to you taking more bases. I played against a top-ranked silver player so playing from a pretty low bronze position (i'm ranked 40 now on sea lol) made me feel pretty good, since it was a macro game. my gf though has refused to talk to me cuz the game took too long. lol. Bad positioning. :P

[porkchop]

positioning/pressure/ army composition . ive noticed this from all high level pro play, i dont like terran alot , im a toss, and there will always be this timing , that both of you will try to mine , maybe get a 3rd or secure a gold, there is a whole in that timing , i guess u should know that since your a terran , but try to check that whole , more times than none, i win when i push between that gap ,