[Satu]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=202876 for the thread in which I am concerned with.

Im completely redoing the OP so that it doesn't sound like a bitchfest. This is only because nirvana ordered kelly not to lock it. That had to be in bold to show my opinion on it, because I realised that this made me look kinda stupid, regardless of if Im right or not. I believe the maths in it should be correct now.

Heres the issue:

To do an overlord sac, I send one overlord in, it dies as a result of the scouting information I gain. I had spent 100 minerals towards that overlord, and thus have 100 minerals less than what I had originally. The overlord gave me +8 max supply while it was alive, and I could have used 0-8 supply that it enabled me while it was still alive, by making units.

Since that overlord was sacrificed, it has to be remade. This means that I spend another 100 minerals. The supply that this overlord gives me will serve the same purpose as the first overlord, and the supply that I haven't yet used I can now use with this overlord. The amount of supply used up on the first overlord will change the effectiveness of this overlord (If I didnt make any units while the previous overlord was sacrificed, then the second overlord will be more effective in giving me supply). Unfortunately, this doesn't mean you will be better off, if you make no units during this period, you will more likely be behind.

Now, if I spent 200 minerals in total on both the overlord and the replacement overlord both of which were required for this form of scouting, then that is 200 minerals that I now do not have. It is not 200 minerals lost, as you still have the second overlord alive. But its 200 minerals you can no longer use.

When comparing this to evo chamber scouting (making a hatch, cancelling, making an evo chamber on the creep), there is a 50 mineral difference. The drone costs 50 minerals, the hatch cancel costs 75 minerals, the evo chamber costs 75 minerals, the replacement drone is 50 minerals. The only reason I listed the replacement drone is because this is a scouting option, not a cheesing option. The replacement drone will most likely be made, and make no doubt about it, that drone is replacing what you previously have lost.

So, the 200 minerals spent of the overlord sac can be compared to the 250 minerals spent of the evo chamber scout. This is a negligible difference.

The argument against it is that the second overlord gives you +8 supply. It can, if you make no units. Otherwise, it can be a number between 0-8 on the supply it allows you to use. This means the second overlord could be not cost effective, but regardless had to be made. That is why it should be considered in the cost, as it could be 100 minerals you have essentially lost.

Sure, you can make two overlords at once, and raise the price up by 100 minerals, assuming you already have one overlord out to scout with. Because then, it is 300 minerals spent. The third overlord will most likely be cost effective though, and as a result, only the initial replacement overlord should be considered.

As a result of all of this thinking, you shouldn't consider the cost difference between the two methods of scouting, but rather the effectiveness. If you think one method is more effective than the other, use one instead of the other. The TL.net thread lists pros/cons of either method and can help you decide on that one. Or you could go with one you just prefer. I realise that majority of people will stick to overlord saccing because it will keep them in their comfort zone and that is the method the majority of players use.

Me discussing this has gotten me banned from posting in the sc2 strategy section on TL.net, as I did not address concerns correctly. I am not a maths student, but I believe that I NOW correct. Im not saying that it means that evo chamber scouting is better, I was only arguing against people saying that a whole extra 100 minerals lost was bad. Instead, I decided that it was minerals spent that should be considered, because the second overlord is a replacement, and may not actually increase you above the point of being supply capped.

tl;dr

+ Show +

Minerals lost (unit cost) for overlord sac = 100
Minerals lost (unit cost) for evo chamber scout = 200

Minerals spent due to overlord sac = 200 (with 0-8 supply added to max)
Minerals spent due to evo chamber scout = 250

Minerals spent is more important to consider and there is less of a difference between the two numbers. Thus, don't consider cost, instead consider effectiveness.

[Cute]

Oh man, I actually laughed out loud while reading that thread.

As for the maths, I have absolutely no idea. I'm so confused after reading that haha

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Cute

Oh man, I actually laughed out loud while reading that thread.

Yeah, looking back at it now, I derailed the thread by being correct.

[Crankenstein]

He used caps lock. His logic is immediately inferior due to that, no matter how flawless it may have been.

[cruxis]

I think the overlord would be built regardless, therefore, the cost of the first overlord shouldn't be equated into the problem.

IMO.

[UncleTom]

Does 1+1 equal 42, what makes the Sun and moon merge into one being. If a kringe bad manners in the middle of a forest and no is there to hear him, does he get out of bronze league. There are many questions in llife yet fewer answers, I have a feeling that with my help we can all find the truth within us all.

Quick Comments

Digby:

[TAminimat]

I think the way to look at it is if you are at 188 or w/e the supply for zerg is 2 before 200 and you make 1 to get to 200, you sac one, you need to spend another 100 minerals to get back to 200 so:

188 - 200 = 200 minerals
sac overload
194 - 200 = 100 minerals

therefore it costs 300 minerals

Not sure if you were talking about that but yea.. w/e lol

[Canx]

Yea I think you nailed it in your edited post. The evo chamber scout costs more minerals but less supply.

[Satu]

Another update: I now cannot post in the TL.net SC2 Strategy Forum, because of this. Lolwut?

[Aean(:]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Another update: I now cannot post in the TL.net SC2 Strategy Forum, because of this. Lolwut?

Did you get banned? o-o

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Aean(:

Did you get banned? o-o

I can post elsewhere, just not the strategy forums.

[ZergGirl]

Words cannot describe how hard I'm laughing.

[deL]

I think I just lost a dozen braincells.

[NvRossi]

i want to slap you upside your head with my dong

[x5_Potter]

+ Show +

Overlord saccing
One overlord = 100 minerals.

Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac:
One overlord to scout + one to replace.

Two overlords = 200 minerals.

Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting.

Sacrificed overlord supply = -8
Remade overlord supply = +8
Total overlord supply change = 0

I think this bit is wrong. You are at 50/50. Sac overlord. 50/42. Remake overlord you sacced + one to not be supply capped = 50/58. So sacced overlord would be -8 and remade ov would be +16?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Potthead

+ Show +

Overlord saccing
One overlord = 100 minerals.

Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac:
One overlord to scout + one to replace.

Two overlords = 200 minerals.

Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting.

Sacrificed overlord supply = -8
Remade overlord supply = +8
Total overlord supply change = 0

I think this bit is wrong. You are at 50/50. Sac overlord. 50/42. Remake overlord you sacced + one to not be supply capped = 50/58. So sacced overlord would be -8 and remade ov would be +16?

It depends on the situation though. If you were at like 50/58 then go down to 50/50 and back up to 58/58, you wouldn't need the third overlord straight away. Im not going to assume that.

[Satu]

You Tube

You Tube

Enjoy.

[Cute]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oLO24zCSN8

Enjoy.

You have actually made my night. Oh god hahaha

[TADedvo]

I hope you know how retarded you are

[Donefor]

zergtastic, sorry to say this but you are wrong.

Think of it this way, when you sac an overlord. What does it take to get back to what you had before the OL sac ?