[Kyfoid]

I would like to share my story of how I had a startling revelation about protoss when I was trying make adjustments to zerg so that they could fight marine/marauder/tank with the proper counter, roach/ultralisk.

I've always felt like something which was very problematic in this game is what the intended counter against Marine/Marauder/Tank was suppose to be for zerg.

There are actually 3 general options that zerg has which come at different times, and I would like to lay those out from earliest to latest.

Earliest: Roach, Infestor

Middle: Roach + Ultralisk

Late: Broodlord

Now, why do I keep saying Roach instead of Zergling?

Reason A: Because Zerg is suppose to match what terran gets in marines with roaches.

Reason B: Zerg is trying to spend their extra minerals on drones to keep their macro going.

With zerg having to match terran's marine force with roach force, it makes it very difficult to get armored ultralisk to counter the tank/marauder in return. But the scenario should end up being zerg with Roach + Ultralisk, and then Terran countering this with Banshees.

The zergling is more of an outsider unit like the Reaper.

So I made a map with some experimental changes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expiramental Changes:

Roach Warren Cost: 200/100 (0, +100)
Cybernetics Core: 150/50 (0, +50)
Roach Cost: 100/0 (+25, -25)
Stalker Cost: 125/25 (0, -25)

As you can see, I lopped 25 gas costs off the stalker and the Roach, added 25 minerals to the cost of roach (Considered adding 50), and added 50 gas costs to the Cyber Core and 100 gas to the Roach Warren.

Why?

I've felt it to be kind of strange that Zerg and Protoss were able to unlock their secondary tech unit across all hatcheries and all gateways with out having to pay a dime in gas, while terran had to pay gas for each individual barrack to unlock their secondary tech unit.

With roaches not costing gas, Terran still handles them perfectly fine, the problem occurs between Zerg and Protoss as roach does well against both Zealots and Stalkers.

That's why I added a 50 gas cost to the Cybernetics core, and took away 25 gas cost on the stalker.

Keep in mind that Protoss are not deviating from the main branch of their tech when they go stalker, where as Zerg and Terran must deviate from their main tech branch in order to access Roach and Marauder...

This could be one of the smaller reasons why Zealot + Stalker do not aggression well against ling/roach and marine/marauder.

But at this point, I had a startling revelation about protoss....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Startling Revelation of Protoss:

Even though the balance changes seemed to work fine, I realized that when Zerg and Terran deviate from the main branch of their tech tree from the start, they access units Bane/Roach and Marauder, whereas, when Protoss deviates from the main branch of the tech tree at the start of the game, they make forge and macro with photon cannons..... Defense....

Now, everyone claims that a very real and standard approach to fighting zerg with protoss is the Forge/Cannon FE.

I've always wondered how this makes sense when considering the traditional wisdom of strategy gaming, "The best defense is a good offense"

Sure, it might be viable play, but I think that starting out with defense, regardless of getting more income, is kind of damning against good zerg players who play aggression with the bare minimum of offense.

Idea:

What if, included with the other changes that I mentioned above, that when protoss make a forge, it unlocks the ability to "Transform" their probes in to some kind of slow fighter unit that costs gas?

Something hardier then a queen obviously but...

You see, currently, there is this concept of offensive proxy with Protoss when they make forge... But this is cheese...

I'm saying that, I think protoss should be able to fulfill this concept of proxy, but it should be in a more viable fashion, something with out cheese....

So Just as how when Terran and Protoss Deviate from their main branch tech path with a Roach warren that now costs gas and roaches that do not, and terran with their tech labs...

When protoss deviates from the main branch using the forge, protoss must mine gas to make this new unit which transforms out of the probe, which is slow enough that in order to be offensive you need to proxy it, but mobile enough that it keeps protoss expanding and protecting those expansions.

There is still the option to go cannons, and their perk is that they don't cost gas....

Can anyone see the potential light of what I'm talking about here?

This might be a huge hole that could be filled in the protoss design.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Reason Why the Infestor is Problematic

So we're all sitting here after a good deal of balances changes so far, only to stare at a potential nerf to fungal, infested terran or both, from the words of Dustin Browder?

What could be the reason for this?

From the start, I've always found it strange that....

-Khaydarin Amulet was removed
-Pathogen Gland Remained
-Infestor Unlocks both fungal and infested marine with no research.

-Last, but not least, zerg unlocks their spell caster with out having to deviate from the main branch of the tech tree.


With that said, it's probably pretty obvious why everything funnels down to a problem with the infestor.

Now, if the gas cost was removed from the roach and the roach now costs 100-125 minerals, they would have to do a few things that would make it balanced.

A.) Roach Warren has a 100 gas cost, at the very least. (Gas cost added to cyber core, compare to terran tech labs)
B.) Infestors now have to research their destructive spells for a damn cost like how other spell casters have always had to do so, and continue to do so in sc2.
C.) Add back Khaydarin amulet?

It's outrageous, really.... to go from a mid-game spell casting queen that must research its spells for a cost, one of which is actually destructive... to this?

And you could say that zerg had the lurker.... but technically the roach is more effective for macro purposes and co-harmonizes in cost with their spell caster better then queen/lurker.

Look, the root problem of the game, as I said, comes back to the fact that protoss are missing some type of defensive unit unlocked by the forge that costs gas, and built, transformed, or morphed in the same duration it takes for a pylon and a cannon to complete, so that no pylon is sacrificed which limits the proxy approach as cheese....

Once this is corrected, the mineral only roach with a gas cost added to the roach warren, and proper research time/upgrades can be added to the infestor....

A gas cost can be put on the cyber core, the gas cost of the stalker can be reduced...

The zealot and terran can be buffed back to normal...

And then we can all sit around the fire singing songs about how amazing starcraft 2 is...

Then finally, zerg can properly combat Marine/Marauder/Tank with roach/ultralisk instead of having to over shoot with broodlords, or undershoot with roach/infestor.

Quick Comments

TABiggun:

Do you even play Starcraft 2? Because whatever game your playing is really different to mine lol

[Satu]

kt:dr

I missed you kyfoid, best troll ever.

For anyone who doesnt know, he was trolling battle.net forums and here as well around a year ago. They are good reads.

[Fairyking]

Instead of spending all your time trying to find things wrong with the game how about just enjoy and play it.

Quick Comments

UHF:

well, if he isn't enjoying it then he can't really do that

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by xGKingSatu

kt:dr

I missed you kyfoid, best troll ever.

For anyone who doesnt know, he was trolling battle.net forums and here as well around a year ago. They are good reads.

Thank you...

I just want to say that I've been banned from the battle.net forums on my 3rd account titled as "AtlasMeCH" and I'm really pissed at myself for becoming emotionally compromised.

My most recent thread there was deleted and I was penalized for harassment on a thread that was completely unrelated to the important one.

I have the writing saved here on my computer and I would upload the file as a link for you if I could as the writing is kind of long.

But the problem is that it only sees things as zerg being UP, but the corner I feel like I have been pushed in to has resulted in a myriad of crazy ideas and logic.

People find it entertaining to read, but it seems unrealistic for balance... that is, Blizzard doesn't seem to be unable to use it or implement it in anyway.

Out of my recent writing, which I feel was my best work, I had this startling revelation about protoss and now I am ashamed at how focused I was on the idea that the root problem with starcraft was zerg weakness and flawed design....

If I had just been more open and looked at things from protoss' point of view, and how they have the divided option to play macro defense and macro offense....

I would have realized that the macro/cannon route is a flawed concept...

Protoss is expected to either switch to offense, or switch to using cannons offensively....

Switching to offense after cannons is too large of a jump...

Offensive cannons is too cheesy.

This reveals the weak point of protoss design that I believe could be fixed, not even by data changes perse, but recognizing that there is a missing piece here which means there is an amazing opportunity to put a new unit in to the game for protoss.

I bet if the community came together and cooperated on what this unit might be and how it would function, that it could be very interesting, tactical, and fun to use.

in turn, we might be able to consider the further, more extreme changes to the other races.

That is all.

[Thrasher]

I must admit I am somewhat confused as to the point of this. Are you just sharing for the sake of it?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by Thrasher

I must admit I am somewhat confused as to the point of this. Are you just sharing for the sake of it?

Well, It appears as though I am looking to the long future of legacy of the void...

I knew that if I put enough time in to this, that I might be able to squeeze of a glimmer of hope before the major foundational design points of the game were said and done, and before the 3rd installment of the game.

As for now, it appears that, yes, this is just for the sake of it... but as for the long future, and legacy of the void?

Maybe there is hope for something truly awesome here.

[Kyfoid]

Oh one last thing, I just want to add that it is ironic that the name of the 3rd installment will be "Legacy of the Void"

I am very moved and inspired by the Tao Teh Ching 45 when it states...

3

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
4

The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities.

It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.

Tao Teh Ching 45: 45.1 A man's work, however finished it seem, Continue as long as he live; A man, however perfect he seem, Is needed as long as he live: As long as truth appears falsity, The seer a fool, The prophet a dumb lout,

[Thrasher]

Quick Comments

	SLCN.Kez:	LOL
	Stallion:	HAHAHA

[Reere]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Quick Comments

SLCN.Kez:

reere are you retarded? LOL

[Kyfoid]

There is one last thing I want to point out.

So the idea would give protoss a mobile yet slower style of defense that has the option to be used in an offensive manner in a legit proxy fashion. In other words, taking the forge macro direction would now be legit.

With that said, I almost feel like the Roach was suppose to fulfill that same concept with zerg, but some how this function got passed over to the hydralisk.

So instead of the roach having a speed upgrade, I believe it should not. Instead, the roach should be faster on creep, and slower off creep.

The hydralisk should function like a normal unit and have a speed upgrade at the den...

Currently, the hydralisk is treated as zerg's macro defensive philosophy with its natural highest speed on creep and slow speed off creep while not having a speed upgrade.

This role, in my opinion, is clearly suppose to be with the roach.

So, look at my proposed changes one more time...

A gas price is placed on the roach warren, let's say 100 gas.
The roaches cost is now 100-125 minerals with no gas cost.
The infestor now has to research its upgrades like a normal spell caster always had to....

Last, but not least, the Roles are switched between the hydralisk and the Roach, as the roach acts as zerg's macro defensive unit, but just like the new protoss unit, should have potential to be used offensively. I'm not sure if some sort of way to proxy the roach should be implemented for more offensive potential? But maybe the zergling already covers that.

Anyways, by slapping a gas cost on the roach warren, making the infestor upgrades priced and researched, and then making the roach less aggressive by switching its situation with the hyralisk...

I think this totally balances out to keep the roaches from being over powered if the gas cost was taken away from it. And you could take the gas cost away from it if fricken protoss had the unit that I am talking about.

Added point: With the slower roach, I think that this proves that the Ultralisk is suppose to be the legit answer for tanks, and with the new charge ability on the ultralisk, I think that pretty much says it all...but wouldn't the natural speed on creep be enough to handle tank threats somewhat until the ultralisk is got?"

[TADivinity]

OH MY GOODNESS - ATLASMECH - YOURE THAT KID THAT MADE THE "Protoss and Terran is Green, but Zerg is Red" argument.

I had that quote in my signature on this site for ages - naturally for its sheer retardedness.

If you create enough buzz I might be able to get a new quote from you

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

OH MY GOODNESS - ATLASMECH - YOURE THAT KID THAT MADE THE "Protoss and Terran is Green, but Zerg is Red" argument.

I had that quote in my signature on this site for ages - naturally for its sheer retardedness.

If you create enough buzz I might be able to get a new quote from you

Oh yeah lol, back when I said that

"Starcraft is a double layered trichotomy"

Reaction
Aggression
Position

+

Quantity
Quality
Ability

=

Protoss = Aggressive Quality
Zerg = Reactive Quantity
Terran = Positional Ability

And all the evidence I had to support it?

Protoss - Shields regenerate faster then zerg life, can warp in units, (agressive quality)
Zerg - Delayed Reaction because they make queens, but results in greater numbers (reactive quantity)
Terran - Bunkers can be placed anywhere and repaired... Tanks get a siege mode that holds their position (Positional, Ability)

And the point was that when you implement a double layered trichotomy that it represents a concept of 3 purely unique bodies and therefore Red, Green and Blue? The primary colors?

I remember those days

I later had the theory that lings should produce in Quads for 100 minerals in each larvae, so that zerg's macro defensive philosophy would have been zerglings, but those zerglings would have had to slowly lose life off creep to balance out...

But apparently blizzard wants that role to be with the Roach... heh...

Sigh....

It seems that people really don't like my retardation when it reaches that high of a level...

I've had to really tone it down and first figure out the most obvious root problem with the game...

I think this protoss point could be the perfect start.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

The zergling is more of an outsider unit like the Reaper.

You've... never actually watched anyone good play this game, have you?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

You've... never actually watched anyone good play this game, have you?

Well, let's be realistic and discuss the role of the zergling.

It is definitely more of an outsider unit until adrenal, let's be honest about that.

Until that point, it's great for taking out constructing expansions that you catch as you can easily have zergling speed ready...

Finally, you really want to save as much larvae as possible for macro, so when you go two different types of units, let's say, roach + ling, it can really slow you down, so the best combo that uses zerglings for macro purposes ends up being zergling + infestor... next in line, zergling muta.

The roach is typically always more cost efficient to make over the zergling.

this game follows a sort of counter system in the following way...

Ground to Ground > Ground to Air
Air to Ground > Ground to Ground
Air to Air > Air to Ground
Ground to Air > Air to Air

Once you put the units from each race in to this counter system, ALL the units outside of this are designed to fulfill a particular role.

For example

Banelings intended for workers in particular (Fungal will always be better then banes against marines)
Zerglings intended for buildings

Which is why, at one point I felt like bonus damage to buildings should have actually been on zerglings and not banelings, and that zerglings should actually be breaking the banelings in to hit workers and units, not the other way around where zerg kind of wastes a lot of gas on merely buildings. I just felt like there could be some role confusion going on there...

But, as I was trying to say, all the units outside of that primary counter system example are intended to fulfill a role... like worker harasser, or building destroyer, etc, etc.

I don't know, that's just how I see it, what about you?

[|Erasmus|]

Well, you talked about as a counter to bio. Every zerg will tell you that roaches are less cost efficient. They are also supply inefficient, so you have to make more ovies = even more cost inefficient.

Have you ever seen a pro zerg counter bio with roaches?

The only time roaches > zerglings vs. bio is if you are incredibly larvae capped (but you probably lost anyway in that case).

and banelings used only to counter workers... I'm almost convinced now you've never even PLAYED this game, let alone watched some actually good players before making incredibly bad arguments.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Well, you talked about as a counter to bio. Every zerg will tell you that roaches are less cost efficient. They are also supply inefficient, so you have to make more ovies = even more cost inefficient.

Have you ever seen a pro zerg counter bio with roaches?

The only time roaches > zerglings vs. bio is if you are incredibly larvae capped (but you probably lost anyway in that case).

and banelings used only to counter workers... I'm almost convinced now you've never even PLAYED this game, let alone watched some actually good players before making incredibly bad arguments.

I guess I'm wrong but I'm not so sure you are clarifying yourself properly...

When you say zerglings, are you saying zerglings alone? Or are you saying that what you make with the zerglings is critical to the point?

Second, Fungal will always be better against marines... and honestly, I can't think of much anything else I would use banelings on besides marine... zerglings actually micro quite well against banes... um.

So yeah? I mean, I might be able to see where you are coming from if you went in to a bit more detail...

[Kyfoid]

Hmmm silence for a while....



I think the real question is, would you know when to say GG when playing a 1v1 of philosophical debate?

Maybe I should start my own gaming forum and call it "entertaining philosophy battles"

Believe me, I would be making sure that people said GG when they lost because I honor "respect and manners" when it comes to competitive sports...

[FaDeBadger]

Didn't this idiot get banned here too, or did he just **** off? Either way, can we make it happen again please.

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

no dont be mean

[Fairyking]

Lol this guy.

[wTlzq]