[Statix]

seen a lot of activity with this over the last few weeks and ive yaboted the hell out of it . . even yabot has a build for it! Most people are saying this should be the standard opener for zerg over the 14 14 and especially against toss.

Has anyone got a super crisp build of this with roach play against an immortal push timing

On that note has anyone got a good counter to an immortal push timing? Getting beat by these all the time.

[Fenner]

ZvT: This build is worthless because you can just hatch first, better economy and hatchery up earlier to put spines up earlier vs hellions

ZvZ: Haven't tested it but I think it will hit too late to do damange against a hatch first build, meaning that if you want to open gas then 14/14 is a stronger safer opening since you get that speed nice and early and if you want to go heavy econ then hatch first is better. If you wanna cancel or do real damage vs a hatch first just 9/10 pool

ZvP: This is where it possibly has some strength, I've played with it myself here. What I found is that it is even with pool first and you get those lings earlier allowing you to get your expansion much more smoothly against pylon blocks and silly stuff, it also stops them from going nex first as far as i know. The problem is if they go with a gate way expand fitting gas into this build becomes extremely awkward, the economy just doesn't work out correctly. With that said barely anyone goes gateway expand anymore so I think this build should definitely get some more usage in ZvP

Quick Comments

TASlowHands:

I didnt know we had a UK emote wtfbbq stealing nao

[TADivinity]

Agree with fenner on T and P, but not Z.
ZvZ it works pretty well - you get out an earlier queen compared to a 14/14, which has the -chance- at sniping first-overlords against clumsy players (Very rare for me now). You can also get a +1 drone over your opponent if they 14/14 once it turns into 1-base versus 1-base play.
Strictly a 1 base build (For the opening part anyway).

You kind of need to get used to it too. Things like your queen / speed / baneling nest / even first few zerling pairs pop at different times relative to your opponent.
I personally like it as I prefer to avoid build order mirrors.

EDIT: The reason why I disagree with Fenner is you can actually hit a really direct little timing just before the spine and 2 queens are set to defend a 15 hatch. Its very niche though, and its not hard to interrupt your baneling production (Which will indeed cause for you hitting too late). You just need to figure how to make sure you get those first 4 banelings up on time

Quick Comments

	deL:	m8 aren't you only in Tier 4? Why are you giving advice?
	Fenner:	Aye like I said haven't actually tried it myself, just theorizing :)

[SLCN.NXZ]

Agreed with fenner for zvp and zvt. For zvz though 11 pool can work, I know vile chance does it and has some interesting transitions to get to a macro game but personally I wouldn't recommend that. However you can do a bane all in off an 11 pool and have a slightly slower speed then a regular 14/14 but have 4 extra lings due to your much quicker inject. Unfortunately u have to have either less banes or less reinforcing lings due to money constraints but it is a very nice alternative to 14/14 bane all in. I personally use it every game on tda.

Quick Comments

TADivinity:

yup yup!

[Snx.Mufasa]

11pool is kinda outdated isn't it?

It's was used as an opener to apparently stop cannon rushes and safely get down your hatch zvp.

Pretty sure you'll find the 12pool19hatch better or you can do what most players are doing zvp which is a 14 or 15 pool into a 'whenever you can get your hatch down' build.

drones can easily deal with a cannon rush so i don't see the point of such an early pool... zvp anyways.

[Fourby]

I HATE VSING THIS BUILD !!!!! XD
good build vs stupids like myself

[SLCN.Kez]

Yeah i dont like it zvz i think 14/14 is better and zvt its completely worthless.
zvp you can catch greedy players who either scouted you last or just fucked up and win a few games, its rare but maybe like 10% of the time it happens? can also be good to find probe quicker, ull feel much safer, and generally is pretty solid without interrupting your economy much. In saying that you need to get ur 3rd down a lil later to have non stop drone production, and in general i do prefer the 15 pool get ur hatch down whenever but this build definitely does have its strengths zvp

[cruxSpoon]

scrounge the team liquid forums there was a build like this waaaaaaaaaaaay back, when FFE came out. It went to the effect 11 overpool, 18 hatch (not sure what else after that, I play terran :P)

[SGquaZa]

I like 12 Overpool better because it gives a extra drone and u have more larva in general but for myself i use 14 pool 16 Hatch be gasless till 40 supply if its a FFE it firs better for Stephano style in ZvP

[Reere]

I only use 11overpool in ZvP, cos those early lings help my build order go smoothly against pylon blocks or cannon harass~

Quick Comments

Fenner:

[x5_dot]

I find most early pool builds in ZvP are bad if the opponent is smart enough to just not pylon block in response. I'm pretty sure they can still go nex first on maps like shakuras/entombed and get the wall/cannon up in time. But for maps where that isn't the case it seems decent.

Personlly I like a 13 pool on maps like TDA and shattered as there's no good surrogate natural and I need early 8-10 lings to kill destructibles.

Haven't tested it in long time so can't go into much detail.

Edit: This is PiG at dot's house, forgot to login.

[mGGDrGooSe]

My standard is usually 14p16h and then either gas or hatch as soon as I work out whether they FFE'd or not. The only thing I've been thinking in regard to early pools is that they might be best against a pylon at both nat and 3rd. But that's pretty rare these days IME.

[AlopexToT]

11 overpool allows you to get lings in Protoss' base if they go FFE

[Statix]

yeah ive been trying it out and i rally like the 12 lings or so i have after the first larva pop this can really delay the toss, im only using it zvp atm but not getting enough games, but its like one of you said, the timings are all over the place and the first 5 mins of the game you have to be thinking if its not commited to memory

Anyone got any good replays of this build up to the 50ish sup mark vs toss?