[ToRSpartaz]

Hey all,

Over these last few months an issue that has becoming ever more prominant has been the writing and establishment of such bills/legislations/laws that are really cutting back our freedom and use of this wonderful thing we call the internet.

I was just watching this video this morning and I came to think that, if this bill is past there is a large possibility it is going to harm the eSports revolution and really begin to take apart what everyone has worked sooo hard to build.

I for one, am strongly against this bill (as is Husky ^^) so guys, just thought Id bring this issue to the general public and see what you guys think on these issues.

Cheers guys

[Apth]

It's a pretty lame thing, but what's going to happen is what happens every time a legislative body comes up against nerds - the nerds find a way around it.

Alternative DNS root servers are already in place, and if SOPA goes through, we'll just use those.

Will it undermine the integrity of the DNS system? Yeah. And that'll suck. But that'll be the extent of the damage.

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Apth

It's a pretty lame thing, but what's going to happen is what happens every time a legislative body comes up against nerds - the nerds find a way around it.

Alternative DNS root servers are already in place, and if SOPA goes through, we'll just use those.

Will it undermine the integrity of the DNS system? Yeah. And that'll suck. But that'll be the extent of the damage.

What they will actually end up doing with these laws if they pass may be one thing. But what they would be capable of doing is a lot more than I think you realise. Example, you post a copyright infringing video on youtube. The government can shut down youtube. This law basically allows them to take down a site for having copyright infringing material on it, regardless of blame.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[Apth]

Originally Posted by FaDeJoshboy

What they will actually end up doing with these laws if they pass may be one thing. But what they would be capable of doing is a lot more than I think you realise. Example, you post a copyright infringing video on youtube. The government can shut down youtube. This law basically allows them to take down a site for having copyright infringing material on it, regardless of blame.

I don't think you read my post.

They take these sites down by changing the DNS entry for that site. The DNS servers they can control have to reside in the United States.

While the root DNS servers are in the US, setting up a DNS server that isn't controlled by ICANN and is outside of the US would be trivial - and I believe has already happened.

[breadfan]

And not just that, but it allows the US govt to take down sites featuring copyright infringing material in any country in the world, regardless if it is a site owned or hosted by a US entity.

The whole thing is just a way to shove the internet into the tiny oddly shaped box that is copyright law and make it fit. What needs to be done instead is reconsider copyright laws to better suit a world with the internet

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Apth

I don't think you read my post.

They take these sites down by changing the DNS entry for that site. The DNS servers they can control have to reside in the United States.

While the root DNS servers are in the US, setting up a DNS server that isn't controlled by ICANN and is outside of the US would be trivial - and I believe has already happened.

Yes but do you really believe if these laws pass they stay isolated to the United States? I believe there are already a few European countries with similar laws already passed, such as Spain (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details but I could look it up if pressed). So far they haven't really done much with those laws yet, but it's still scary the power those laws give them.

[breadfan]

Apth, have you got a source for that? I don't think it'll be just "changing the DNS entry" - I could just change it right back? But they are able to block all DNS routing to and from a website, regardless of where it's located.

So even if you could set up a foreign website, your site becomes no longer accessible by anyone inside the US. That's not a real solution.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by FaDeJoshboy

Yes but do you really believe if these laws pass they stay isolated to the United States? I believe there are already a few European companies with similar laws already passed, such as Spain (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details but I could look it up if pressed). So far they haven't really done much with those laws yet, but it's still scary the power those laws give them.

The only feasible action they can take is changing DNS entries, the workarounds for which are childishly simple.

Typing the IP address of the website into your browser instead of the hostname, for example.

Is SOPA bad? Yes. Is it a step in the wrong direction? Yes. Should copyright legislation be reviewed? Yes.

Will SOPA stop people from getting to websites? No.

Originally Posted by breadfan

Apth, have you got a source for that? I don't think it'll be just "changing the DNS entry" - I could just change it right back? But they are able to block all DNS routing to and from a website, regardless of where it's located.

So even if you could set up a foreign website, your site becomes no longer accessible by anyone inside the US. That's not a real solution.

Wikipedia SOPA Article:
The Domain Name System (DNS) servers, most often equated with a phone directory, translate browser requests for domain names into the IP address assigned to that computer or network. The bill requires these servers to stop referring requests for infringing domains to their assigned IP addresses.

Go read this article: http://news.techeye.net/internet/aus...ers-are-a-joke

[breadfan]

According to that same article, it's completely unknown if any steps to circumvent the DNS blocking will actually be effective or not, so I still don't know how you can be so sure?

Also, SOPA is not the same as the Australian censorship bill

[Apth]

Originally Posted by breadfan

According to that same article, it's completely unknown if any steps to circumvent the DNS blocking will actually be effective or not, so I still don't know how you can be so sure?

Because I work for an ISP and know how DNS works?

Website hosted at 1.2.3.4
DNS Server 1 points www.website.com to 1.2.3.4
SOPA changes DNS Server 1 to point www.website.com to www.sopa.com

I use DNS Server 2, which points www.website.com to 1.2.3.4
SOPA can't change DNS Server 2 because it's hosted in Tokelau

Once again, DNS integrity is going to be broken, at least for awhile, but it's not going to stop people getting to websites.

Originally Posted by breadfan

Also, SOPA is not the same as the Australian censorship bill

The way it censors websites is the same, which is why I linked the article.

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Apth, SOPA gives the US government the ability to shut down websites for copyright infringement. DNS blocking is just one measure they would use. The problem with SOPA is that currently anything that is regarded as copyright infringement has to be proved before it is forced to be taken down. The onus is on the claimant to prove so. With SOPA as soon as someone claims there is something on the website that infringes copyright the entire website goes down, no questions asked.

If SOPA went through Youtube would disappear overnight. This is just one example.

I'm currently at work, so I can't get to Youtube, but if you look up SOPA Total Biscuit you should hopefully find a detailed video he put up as to why SOPA is such a terrifying piece of legislation. Because so much of the Internet is routed through the US, and so much of the content that we view is hosted there we would be affected as much as anyone else.

One more example that I just thought of, which could potentially happen. Someone creates a custom map in SC2 that infringes copyright, or is claimed to have infringed copyright. Battle.net would be shut down under SOPA!!!

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Bugalugs McScruffin

Apth, SOPA gives the US government the ability to shut down websites for copyright infringement. DNS blocking is just one measure they would use.

I'm well aware of how retardedly powerful SOPA would be, if passed. I'm not agreeing with it's measures or sentiment in the slightest.

However, I'm not aware of any feasible measures other than DNS blocking that censors have in their arsenal.

Deep packet inspection was considered by the Australian Government as an alternative to DNS blocking, mainly because DNS blocking is a joke, but was rejected as entirely infeasible by ISPs.

[breadfan]

Then say that, don't refer to a bunch of articles that don't support what your're saying and call them evidence? Basically, until we see something about how they are going

It could surely not just be a DNS change at one single point.

Also, you're forgetting the other restrictions being put on sites. Imagine someone posts the logo of some designer brand - say Louis Vuitton or whatever - on this website, and say NirvAnA is on holiday, and as possibly the only person notified, doesn't take any steps to remove it in time.

This website gets all DNS routing blocked. All payment transactions are barred. All search engines drop sc2sea from their listings. The host is ordered to remove the website.

Even if you are completely right Apth, and he is able to change the DNS address to once again be accessible, he has to get a new host (costing money, and there will be reimbursement for the remaining monthly/yearly/whatever service that was paid for), the store and donations that keep the site running are cut off. No new users can arrive here by search engine. And he won't be able to re-register the URL because it won't be released by the SOPA and that URL effectively dies.

Even if the site managed to bounce back at first, I don't think it is possible that it would last too much longer. And this is using the example of a dedicated community site. So many other sites out there don't have dedicated users who, once seeing the SOPA block message, will probably just find an alternative and never think about it again.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by breadfan

Then say that, don't refer to a bunch of articles that don't support what your're saying and call them evidence?

You asked for an article. Before that, I didn't feel the need to refer to one, because I thought I was explaining myself rather well.

Originally Posted by breadfan

It could surely not just be a DNS change at one single point.

It's actually that simple.

Try it for yourself - ping www.google.com, and type the IP address into your web browser. You just circumvented DNS blocking - all that's required is knowledge of the IP address that the website is hosted on.

Originally Posted by breadfan

The host is ordered to remove the website.

Not going to happen, takedowns are temporary. Permanently removing websites - as far as I'm aware - isn't in the scope of the bill. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Bugalugs McScruffin

If SOPA went through Youtube would disappear overnight. This is just one example.

Not exactly true - this is possible, but one of the features is that and sites that actively fight copyright infringement get full immunity, and it was established that YouTube already meets that requirement, and so will be immune. This is just one of those things that people use as an example, it's not a certainty.

I mean, a judge in the US COULD decide they weren't doing enough and order their shut down anyway.

[Rockstar]

Welcome to China.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Apth

Quote:
Originally Posted by breadfan
Then say that, don't refer to a bunch of articles that don't support what your're saying and call them evidence?
You asked for an article. Before that, I didn't feel the need to refer to one, because I thought I was explaining myself rather well.

I asked for a source, not an article. A source would be a credible (i.e. involved with SOPA) publication actually defining something as being the case.

I found it for you though, and according to the bill itself, you're correct

Originally Posted by Stop Online Piracy Act H.R.3261 Sec. 102c

(2) REASONABLE MEASURES- After being served with a copy of an order pursuant to this subsection, the following shall apply:
(A) SERVICE PROVIDERS-
(i) IN GENERAL- A service provider shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures designed to prevent access by its subscribers located within the United States to the foreign infringing site (or portion thereof) that is subject to the order, including measures designed to prevent the domain name of the foreign infringing site (or portion thereof) from resolving to that domain name's Internet Protocol address. Such actions shall be taken as expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may order.
(ii) LIMITATIONS- A service provider shall not be required--
(I) other than as directed under this subparagraph, to modify its network, software, systems, or facilities;
(II) to take any measures with respect to domain name resolutions not performed by its own domain name server; or
(III) to continue to prevent access to a domain name to which access has been effectively disabled by other means.

It is interesting to see the 'other means' referred to, it's a long read but I'll update if there is anything else

Originally Posted by Apth

Quote:
Originally Posted by breadfan
It could surely not just be a DNS change at one single point.
It's actually that simple.

And when ISPs block those IPs also?

Originally Posted by Apth

Quote:
Originally Posted by breadfan
The host is ordered to remove the website.
Not going to happen, takedowns are temporary. Permanently removing websites - as far as I'm aware - isn't in the scope of the bill. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

How long is temporary? What's in the bill doesn't really matter here - the fact is, they force a third party company (your host) to comply with them by removing the copyright infringing material on your site. Not only is there nothing to stop the host straight up cancelling your service, but it's actually easier for them, especially with the contract you sign with any host (at least the ones I've seen) that say that if they don't like your material for any reason, they can/will remove your site. Why would a company go to the effort of sifting through your site, looking for copyright material, and removing it individually, when they are at risk of being seen as not in compliance and lose their immunity?

[mGGDaedalus]

SOPA isn't about stopping you accessing a website. It's about them being able to shut down the website entirely. Now will they entirely shut down a website like youtube or facebook? Most likely not. But they will be able to shut down content on it. Really it's about corporate censorship.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by FaDeJoshboy

SOPA isn't about stopping you accessing a website. It's about them being able to shut down the website entirely. Now will they entirely shut down a website like youtube or facebook? Most likely not. But they will be able to shut down content on it. Really it's about corporate censorship.

I understand why everyone latches onto facebook and youtube as two big examples, but as so many people point out... what happens if we had this bill 7 years ago, when youtube was first starting up? youtube would never have got the chance to become what it is today, it would never have been acquired by google. Both of them began as very small startups. Youtube was a basement operation for two guys during uni.

Small startups may not have the power to control content to the extent that youtube and facebook can today. SOPA can deprive us of many lifestyle-impacting websites in the future, not just today.

[Paroxysm]

Personally, I believe that in all countries throughout the world, legislation SHOULD develop at a rate that is similar to or equal to the societal development of the nation in question. In this scenario, the internet has become an increasingly popular place to relax and have fun in all places over the world.

As someone said earlier, because the internet is becoming more and more frequented by people all over the world, it is time that legislation regarding the internet is questioned and a new series of legislation needs to be introduced that caters for this. In all honesty though, the SOPA laws are pretty much stupid, threatening almost every online business in the planet. Sadly, this could be the end of the internet as we know it.