[jason]

Hey guys,
I'm a high diamond terran player. I think I'm alright with TvZ and TvT, but when it comes to TvP, it is just really hard for me to beat toss.

I mean, when the game drags on, toss just literally pwn if they tech up. 3 base toss is actually really scary. I have a lot of problem dealing with late game toss when they have chargelots, blink stalkers, upgrades, colossi, templars, sentries and maybe a few voidrays. I mean if u go for infantry ur pretty screwed unless you land a few perfect EMP, but now that EMP only take away 100 energy, it's really hard to tell if they still have energy left ( I know there's something called energy bar, but when they clump up, you just don't have the time and ability to figure it out).
You have to micro your vikings perfectly to hit and a good angle and back them up when they get targeted. You have to EMP, you have to stim ur infantry and dodge storms and back up if he FF you. I just can't do that much. Also you have to macro up and stuff.

Also if you get hit by a storm, hell you're screwed. If you get hit twice, literally man, gg... and people actually start feedbacking ghost in this level of play, and I think feedback range out ranges emp range? not sure but I mean it just makes it really hard for terran to overcome toss in this late game situation. Drops won't work well cuz they have cannons and a few HT around the map can easily feedback the dropship ( good players with eyes on their minimap).

My point is if the toss actually holds on until late game, what is the way to win a TvP? Mech? They just add immortals. Any help would be deeply appreciated.

Edit : Even MarineKingPrime said, as the maps are getting larger, it is harder for terran as terran is a pressure putting race. And toss is therefore made stronger and can hold off til LATE GAME, which toss dominates. Video of him saying it :

You Tube

You Tube

(Interview with MKP by Artosis)

[eXcLusiVe]

didnt jinro win with mech

[jason]

the thing is, I'm not Jinro

[eXcLusiVe]

Give it a shot then? just try new things different builds more aggression, less aggression and expand more or something different units use ur imagination

[jason]

I ma try raven banshee or maybe nukes. !

[iMSystem]

Honestly its just comes down to micro if all else is is even (macro etc.) It may be hard but you want to try to deny the Toss' 3rd for as long as possible, drop harras and all that jazz. Make him scared to move out, while your doing this, take your own 3rd

Cloak for ghosts helps slightly with feedback until they get detection.

You might want to even change up your early game, try mech out (as stated above) or go for a more heavy Marauder build, and force him for immortals, then throw out some early ghosts, hell even banshees.
(I'm not sure what your early game build is, so just stating some ideas)

The way I see it is you want to control the early and mid game as a T for as long as you possibly came and wear the Toss down. If it comes down to a 200v200 battle, the toss will most always win.

Good luck

[inFeZa]

just build maraudooors dood

[clock]

Hey Jason,

dayNine just did 2 absolutely ridiculous daily's on TVP, its a hard matchup for me aswell and the detail he goes into here is just unbelievable!

I found that not only did i learnt alot more of the timings, but he actually taught me some really intricate ways of analyising a matchup, here is the links:

Part 1 : http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4987955/
Part 2 : http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4992030/

Enjoy

P.S its alottt of watching, i recommend with the weather a hot milo and some cookies and maybe put it on the laptop and snuggle up in bed instead of sitting at computer desk, but make sure you have a notepad !!

[nirvAnA]

Watch thorzain's games vs tyler from TSL3 today.

He won with a few different styles and basically made Terran seem super imba.

In game 3 he designed his play to counter the increasingly popular dual forge upgrade style popularised by Tyler himself which revolved around hitting the terrans third at 2/2 with a massive wave of gateway units. Instead of getting baited out, thorzain camped abit and got super fast infantry upgrades himself as well as bunkering up to defend the 2/2 timing attack and it worked out fantastically.

Btw when i read this OP title for some reason my first thoguht was borrowing charlie sheens brain and you'll be like dude cant handle it!

You Tube

You Tube

[ROOT`iaguz]

Don't watch thorzains games. He does the wrong things and wins because he plays against Tyler's style, not against Protoss. Also, Tyler played extremely poorly.

Learn 1 or 2 rax FE into 5+ raxes and medivacs. Learn how to read the protoss openings and how to multitask drops and your main army to multiprong your foe. you can NEVER attack him head on without a really big advantage, so stop doing that (I get hella complacent and lose tons of TvP's because I think I can just take 'em).

Don't play mech. Play bio. Mech play is mostly balls unless you have a carefully engineered strategy or it's close positions map or a 2p map.

What you are probably doing wrong are simple mechanic issues like not building enough scvs or maintaining continuous production from your barracks.

And late game TvP is almost entirely about landing great EMP's. You can be ahead or behind in a thousand ways and as long as you hit 2 or 3 money EMP's you win.

[nGenLight]

Don't 1/2 rax expo on maps with wide naturals, because the consensus between many of us higher level Protoss players is that a 3gate pressure into 6 gate push outright kills this.

As TADeth once put it the best "1 rax expand into... lose".

There are two styles which I find the most troubling:
(1) oGsSuperNova's mech/bio style.
BO: Techlab Marauder opener, In-Base CC, Seige tank expand, Techlab Starport makes a Raven and a Banshee(Don't ever let this die, fear of the banshee) before switching to a reactor make Medivacs, add on multiple barracks, transition into mass MMM/Tank/Raven off 2 saturated(w/mule) base and deny Protoss third.
(2) MMA/QXC/Select Bio/Heavy drop harrass style.
BO: 2 Rax, Reactor+Techlab, In-Base CC, Reactor Starport, start map controlling off multi-pronged attacks/drops and outexpand the Protoss.

[jason]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Don't 1/2 rax expo on maps with wide naturals, because the consensus between many of us higher level Protoss players is that a 3gate pressure into 6 gate push outright kills this.

As TADeth once put it the best "1 rax expand into... lose".

There are two styles which I find the most troubling:
(1) oGsSuperNova's mech/bio style.
BO: Techlab Marauder opener, In-Base CC, Seige tank expand, Techlab Starport makes a Raven and a Banshee(Don't ever let this die, fear of the banshee) before switching to a reactor make Medivacs, add on multiple barracks, transition into mass MMM/Tank/Raven off 2 saturated(w/mule) base and deny Protoss third.
(2) MMA/QXC/Select Bio/Heavy drop harrass style.
BO: 2 Rax, Reactor+Techlab, In-Base CC, Reactor Starport, start map controlling off multi-pronged attacks/drops and outexpand the Protoss.

yeah I 2 rax FEd on Xel and he 3 gate expanded.
He then 6 gates and i lost straight up.

Originally Posted by iaguz

Don't watch thorzains games. He does the wrong things and wins because he plays against Tyler's style, not against Protoss. Also, Tyler played extremely poorly.

Learn 1 or 2 rax FE into 5+ raxes and medivacs. Learn how to read the protoss openings and how to multitask drops and your main army to multiprong your foe. you can NEVER attack him head on without a really big advantage, so stop doing that (I get hella complacent and lose tons of TvP's because I think I can just take 'em).

Don't play mech. Play bio. Mech play is mostly balls unless you have a carefully engineered strategy or it's close positions map or a 2p map.

What you are probably doing wrong are simple mechanic issues like not building enough scvs or maintaining continuous production from your barracks.

And late game TvP is almost entirely about landing great EMP's. You can be ahead or behind in a thousand ways and as long as you hit 2 or 3 money EMP's you win.

It's really hard to drop and attack with main army cuz if he only moves like 10 stalkers back, he can easily pull it back if it's on a map like xel or backwater, as the distance between the main base and natural is so short.

One strategy that I find really useful and works really well is tank marine bunker contain. So u go rax > keep pumping marines and gas + fact + gas. U get tech lab after fact is done and research seige mode and get tanks out. Once u have 2 tanks ( also the timing when siege mode is done ) u push out with 2 tanks and your bunch of marines off the no add-on rax. U bunker under the ramp ( not too close as toss can shoot it down with stalkers) and siege behind it. Then expand yourself and add more rax and a starport to get vikings (if he gets stargate) or medivacs, mainly to give sight for the tanks to abuse their range so they can shoot at the toss buildings. You literally keep making tanks and spread them up, and just wait til the toss runs out of mineral and for the final push. But 2 base > 1 base, so yeah...

This works only if it's a small ramp with no backside, and make sure u get vision around their base, incase they warp in zlots outside to do a flank. And also if it's cross spawn on a huge map like taldarim altar, then it won't work as 1st of all the ramp is massive, 2ndly the distance is too huge that the toss can get a lot more units when u get there.
The only problem is if you get caught when ur not sieged (the walk to their ramp), it's GG.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Oh yeah, xel naga is straight up impossible to rax FE on. Figure out a different build on that map. I personally use a really weird mech play I learnt fromm watching Gretorp's stream/Drewbie which is really weird and I won't go into it.

And possibly do those build Light suggests, haha. His advice is really good (it should be, his pvt is ******* scary)

Also, that build is bad. Ignore it. Any good protoss will already have secured his expansion or will be able to fend off his first attack with just pure gateway units. Or he's going DT's or Stargate or robo, any of which can beat or outmanouvre the contain. Containment strats vs Protoss are super weak, excluding an early bunker from 1 or 2 rax really early on for some cutesy delaying. Other than that, protoss can easily go around a contain and kill all your scvs. Totally not worth it.

If the protoss is getting really focused on preventing drops then send out empty medivacs. 10 stalkers to defend against one medivac whilst you take on his army is a fair trade. And a note about medivacs, they are for dropping. Not fighting. The heal is a luxury, it's purpose is for drops. So don't just add medivacs randomly! have 2 around for drops and healing and no more, get vikings (if collosus, obv).

6 gate all-ins are extremely powerful. The only ways to stop it are to do a siege tank opening (they prob won't do a 6 gate all in if they scout tanks. Prob) or a ton of bunkers and a 6 rax startegy yourself. To scout it you're only real chance is to sneak in a reaper at ~7 minutes and count his gateways.

Oh, and to that earlier poster, Jinro won with mech a looooooooong time ago. Mech is, imo, incredibly ******* bad. I don't know how Goody manages to have success going mech but it's really weak cuz of mobility and getting outexpanded and the fact that, compared to BW anyway, Mech got weaker and Protoss anti-mech just got stronger.

[jason]

I personally think that toss is a bit op. Like not trolling but storms? colossi? chargelots?

I mean if u see colossus u immediately switch to viking, but if he sees u going that many viking, a switch to storms, bam.

And storms just do SO MUCH damage. I mean 2 storms can literally wreck ur whole army up. And forcefields are just, u know, good. Not that it's op but if ur skilled, it can change the game. 4 good ff can win u a game.

[mGMUSE]

thanks for the posts iaguz and light, highly informative ^^

[NDG.Stitch]

Yeah, I've definitely been having CRAZY problems with Toss. I've went 0-8 with Toss and I find really hardly any openings to kill the toss out at any point of the game. It feels like they have a huge power to kill u off early game, and also a huge power late game. But I can't find an opening in mid-game that can really pressure the toss. Yeah, like jason said, it's really hard to deal with colossi, zealot and HT's. It requires so much micro that most players would be very stressed out about, whereas the toss only has to lay a few storms, ffs... But the help and advice given here is very very great. Thanks

[Dox]

A few weeks ago I was losing nearly every single game to Protoss. Didn't matter what they did. 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, FE, whatever. I was trying to 2 Rax expand and play very passively but it just doesn't hold up. Then I watched a few SuperNoVa replays and followed his trend of applying early pressure with like 2 SCV's, 3 Marines and 2 Marauders with Concussive Shell, and just streaming units down for constant pressure from 2-3 rax while expanding.

If the Protoss gets cocky and doesn't pull any Probes or screws up his FF's, you can often end the game right there. If not, simply pull back with a pair of bunkers at your fully saturated expansion and from here, you can transition into a whole bunch of shit. 6 Rax MMM if you want to continue pressuring them and deny expansions, or lately I'm seeing a lot of Thor integration as the huge damage means the Protoss can't really engage you without losing a guaranteed handful of units. It puts you in a good position if they went 3-gate Robo and intend to produce Immortals/Colossi.

Ever since taking up this style, I found TvP to be a whole lot easier and I just feel so much more comfortable with my position on the map at all times. You always hit the Protoss base before Warp Gate is finished researching so the potential to do SOME damage, even if it's just a Pylon or delaying their Robo or SOMETHING... you're pulling ahead. I feel especially good when I manage to take out like 2 Stalkers, a Sentry and a Zealot while my expansion is going up safely.

My only real issue with this matchup is when they start throwing 30+ Zealots at you with Charge and Armor upgrades. They're so hard to kill, and with Colossi behind them, you can't economically justify kiting them.

[iMSystem]

What I like to do when the Protoss starts massing zealots, is get blue-flame hellions.
The zealots will drop so easy, leaving enough room for your bio to stomp the rest of the army.
Not to mention, with a medivac you can harrass probe lines too.

[Dox]

Yeah I've tried it out quite a few times, but I always find that once I've got the Zealots down, there's just not enough invested in the rest of my army to take down the Stalkers/Colossi. As much as I hate to admit it, using the "SuperNoVa" style, I've beaten a lot of Protoss who were mechanically better than me. The early game pressure followed up by huge economic advantage just makes the matchup feel so easy to control.

If the game does progress to mid-late, I tend to use small groups of Vikings to harass Colossi and force the Protoss to pull them back away from their army, while I flank the lone Colossus and snipe it with a small group of Marauders. Keeping the Colossi count low for the whole game is so critical.

[jason]

Dox, are there any replays that you particularly recommend us to watch? (of supernova using that style of play ) That would be really helpful :P

thnx