[ToRSpookToR]

Hello friends,

I have just played this build on ladder 2 times in a row by the same guy and i must say it makes me sad about life .

Anyway the general just of it is he stays 2 base for ages and cuts probes at around 50ish hits around 16 mins with 3/3 160 supply a few colli (3 i think) chargelots and a few blink stalkers. there is no expand after this it is 100% all-in.

From what i can tell from watching the replays he seems to skimp on whilst he gets up tech and gateways, i feel if i searched hard enough i could find a good timing to abuse this but i feel perhaps it is unrealistic for a couple of reasons.

1. Sentries, i played him on Shak in game 2 i feel as though with my timing i could have won the game however was kept out by sentries for a good couple of minutes. Standard way of playing against a terran mid game (i assume, its what i seem to see :S) is that you keep lots and sentries at nat and stalkers in main. Reviewing the replay i saw i could have dropped in the main and it would have been quite effective as i believe he only had 1 stalker at the time.

2. Scouting there is no way to definitively tell this build apart from the standard 5 gate robo expo, as far as i can tell anyway. If i come across this build again im not sure if i would be aware it was happening 'till it was rather late.

Engagements - i feel game 1 i had a decent chance to win or hold it off however i took a bad engagement.(I didn't take upgrades into account when engaging a mistake on my part) also on cloud my timing was inexcusably late and probably would have been more successful had i hit it correctly.

Any off you Terrans have any suggestions on how to hold this or scout it at the very least or Protoss for that matter, i am not 100% on this but with scv scouts seeing he has 3 sentries and has both the nat gases may indicate towards something like this, or the natural gas timings on it self im not 100% on the gas timings for standard 5 gate robo something to look at.

Replays attached any help would be greatly appreciated

[MooZfY]

I feel you brother

Quick Comments

ToRSpookToR:

<3

[wTlzq]

one of the few reasons why i switched from Terran to Zerg---> TvP is quite micro orientated

[ToRSpookToR]

yea but so is tvz mind you, unless you mech....

[SanG]

1/1/1 is your answer

[ProAnnn]

If a protoss turtles on 2 base like forever, just grab a third, double upgrades, ghost + vikings. With a decent unit mix, good engagement(Spread out ur army so collossi splash not so painful, nice emps). Even with a little upgrade deficit, you should be able to win

[ToRSpookToR]

o.O thats what i did i think a bit late on the ghosts i was 2-1 to his 3/3 however my engagements where not the best so something to work on thank you!

[ROOT`iaguz]

Ahh 2 base turtling Protoss's...

I shall watch rep and give advice (because I'm trying to become a heaps sick coach and apparently this is part of it)

WATCHING SHAKURAS GAME

Your scout timing was good. Do that.

Always wall off with your second depot. Always. Protoss might try to walk past your bunkers and up your ramp and if it's open then they can win for free sometimes. It's also worth it to have a wall off so if DT's walk in the front you can wall off before one makes it into the main for damage control. Always wall this off!

Your scout saw 1 gate, 1 gas, no zealot and no chrono energy. 4 gate is unlikely, probably a fast expand. In this instance if you're quick and lucky you can move to his natural and block his expo with an ebay. As long as you cancel it before he finishes destroying it you can massiveyl delay his expansion for very cheap. This can really throw off a Protoss. If you do it though, be prepared for some Protoss's to respond in a weird way like going 5 gate all in or smth.

As it was your SCV saw a nexus anyway and that's useful. You're still going to need a bunker at your natural but you can be reasonably secure knowing that protoss can't pressure you for a while.

Oh ho! Thorzains 1 rax FE variant! Hah, haven't done this for a long time! The key of Thorzains TvP is superior tech timings. If you study Thorzain compared to other terrans, his tech all comes at a much faster timing then other terrans, particularly his first 2 ghosts. This style is well suited to dealing with a 2 base turtling P because he is less ahead in tech then he could be normally.

Ok I'm at 7:30 and everything's looking fairly comforatble. If there's one piece of advice I could give it's that you should consider also moving out with your units and clearing the watch towers whilst also sending a marine otu to check for pylons. A marine can scout all around the vertically opposite main/natural (most common proxy pylon position). Typically a protoss who is not doing some ******* lame gateway timing is only keeping 1 stalker just out the front of your base or at the tower and you can remove it very easily. You have to keep on top of your control because it is possible to be surprised by a group of sentries and FF's can ruin you, but you have to get into the habit of doing this. You have to wrestle Protoss a bit for the map. It givse you good information and can sometimes result in Protoss misreading what you're doing. It's safe and generally worth it.

I think your +1 timing on your ebay is a bit late because you didn't put 2 scvs back on gas at the right timing. Not 100% sure though, I don't remember the thorzain timings 100%

Ok, we're entering midgame. Midgame TvP is so crucial, games are won or lost at this stage. At this point we're trying to do a lot of things all at once:

1) macro properly. This means not losing any rounds of scvs or barracks units and adding on more production at home so we don't float. We need 2 more Rax and a command centre. If we're doing the Thorzain build properly then we also want a 4th gas at about the time we start the medivacs and we use this gas for 2 ghosts (we delay the 4th and 5th rax for this, maybe even after the 3rd too. Again, not sure, too unfamiliar with thorzain FE).
2) Search and destroy any targets of opportunity we see. Protoss is turtling and we need to find a way in to do any damage we can because he's trying to get some big scary tech out fast. Any building too close to a cliff? It dies. Any units too close to cliffs? They die too. Any observers we see floating? Scan and destroy them. You should float your factory and send it out too so you can scout the Protoss. Generally at this stage, Protoss does not have enough units to cover every possible attack angle, he's trying to feel you out and position his units properly so he can hit a faster tech timing. Observers help a ton with this. So kill them! Kill whatever you find, you HAVE to delay whatever he is doing as long as you can.
3) 4 medivacs and solid dropping. If you're unsure where to drop, throw out a scan. On shakuras there are a lot of good paths for dropships to hit all around the Protoss base. You can load up and move aroudn the back of his main or natural and drop into his probe line, load up 4 dropships and drop right down his centre, or move a drop right toe the back corner of his base and pick off tech structures. If you watch how pr0 KR terran players play out this part of the game it's all about deft drops and positioning. In this game you started vikings after only 2 medivacs and without any information on what the Protoss is doing. I don't think this is the right idea.
4) check his 3rd. He might have already taken it. Leave a unit there so you know when he does.
5) Check everywhere for pylons!

In this game you made a few mistakes at midgame, ones that you don't have to make. You floated a lot at home because of bad multitasking, and your harass consisted of forcing him to throw out forcefields. His main mineral line and the vital forges at the back end of his base were begging to be dropped on.

You also didn't clear out both watch towers, which gave him so much information on your movements. TvP is all about deception, manouvre and trickery! If you play straight up even a disadvantaged Protoss will annihilate you. So learn how to multitask your macro and drops as well as you can. This is a lot harder for Terran then Protoss mechanically imo (obv bias) but it's what you have to do to win this game! It's not about intelligence or game sense it's about hitting your buttons properly.

Oh, and front on attacks are so hard to get working against sentry/immortal. It can be done if your micro is good though. In this case you didn't really seem to lose anything but neither did he. FF's do not cost money, Protoss is happy to trade them.

GOING INTO MID/LATE GAME

So what we've scouted here is double forges, twilight (since all double forge play has to have a twilight or it's ****** stupid) and colossus. Here we can deduce:
1) Protoss won't attack until 2/2 at the very least, we are under absolutely no pressure.
2) We don't know if Protoss will move out to secure his 3rd or keep sitting until templar or 3/3.
3) We didn't kill anything so we're extremely behind.

Oh, you're attack at 13 was.. interesting. It was well timed, you hit just before his 2/2 finished, but normally an attack like this would struggle to be effective. What was really good though is that you killed the important units, ie, the colosus and sentries. It's a huge wait for him to rebuild the colossus and it's hard for him to expand or attack. So that was really good! At this point we want to power out everything really hard and DO SOME ******* DROPS! At the very least have a drop or two just chilling outside your opponents base so when you do see him moving out you rock up and kill a bunch of probes. If you can kill a shitload of probes and force him to warp in/keep a bunch of units then that majorly increases the amount of damage you can sustain in the next engagement.

The fight at your 3rd was poorly handled. You're in a hard spot, tis true, so let's talk about how to handle it.

When protoss has a big colossus army like that we want to keep a massive concave so colossus splash is reduced. And against any 2 base colossus timing we want to pull a massive amount of scvs. We can lose a lot of scvs in a situation like this because (especially when we drop when he moves out and kill a bunch of probes) Protoss's ability to remake this deathball is weak because his economy sucks. So in this case what you really want to do is lift up your CC, make a huge arc with all your units, stim and run 'em in when he tries to engage. Hopefully it ends well for you.

Welp, there we go.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Snx.FigJig:
	TCPLemminks:	you're too nice........and manly
	SPGDoG:
	akky:

[ToRSpookToR]

Wow thanks heaps for that the +1 was delayed cant remember the cause for it but it was delayed none the less, as far as the thorzain timings go i have been going off 2 replays i found lol so its a bit fail atm your points on that are awesome. Drops are one of the things im trying to work on in my play. in my experience that third is harder to defend then the other option up north regardless bad engagements are whats done it. Sometimes it seems terran has to work harder then protoss.... sigh

[ROOT`iaguz]

I generally take the northern expansion in TvP I don't take the pocket expansion. this increases the amount of surface area you can engage a big colossus army like his and it takes longer for his army to move across the map giving you more time to preapre for it (assuming you're properly assessing map vision!).

Getting a 4th against a 2 basing Protoss is a waste of time and money btw. If he's stuck on 2 bases then we have to focus on destroying his 2 base strategy with only 3 of our bases. And that's fine!

I'm not 100% sure how the Thorzain style goes into drop play especially since it has fewer bio units and more ghosts. I'd have to watch a lot more of it tbh, I might be leading you down some wrong paths.

[ToRSpookToR]

rofl if your tvp can beat high masters/low gms then i think we will be fine haha