[Next_rim]

Struggling really bad in PvP, winrate is under 20%. I lose 8 out of 10 pvp's. I have no feeling of the flow of the matchup whatsoever. In PvZ, I win by being greedier than greedy zerg + tech. In PvT, I win with DT, warp prism and blink harass, with eventual colossi stompage. I go in a game with a straightfoward and precise game plan.

PvP is much different. First, it's more dynamic. Seconds, it's very micro-heavy. Third, you can't play macro.

Day9 says at any point of the game in a PvP, there are certain "edges" I can exploit. It's either army size, probe count or gas (aka tech). If my army is bigger, I should push. If my probe count is higher, I should keep production up, and eventually get a bigger army. If I have tech advantage, I should combine it with timing and push. In PvZ i know that at min 9-10, a 2-base push will come, and it will be either roach-heavy, infestor-heavy or hydra-heavy. Based on scouting info at min 7, I adjust my build in response. Cookie cutter. PvP can go a lot of ways with a blink of an eye, all due to warpgate and tech being readily available for rapid switching.

I picked up this defensive 3-gate build from TL, that people offered me earlier. Perhaps, it doesn't suit me well, because it's precisely designed to fight off a 4wg. The TL article that explores this build is very vague on particular transition and comes down to "well, if it's not 4 wg, get blink and figure it out from there". I find this build very inflexible if opp isn't going 4-wg.

I need help with planning out deviations from my build to respond to opponent's game.

Some common builds I have encountered so far:
1) Early blink. Opp sits at base till he has blink, then arrives at my base to harass and abuse my late blink. My edge here is supposed to be higher unit count, so I'm supposed to get blink, and no robo, and keep pumping units out. Is it the right response? I usually get TC up, but crumble even before my blink is done, because I can't keep up with mobile stalker force. And I have no idea how to tell early blink from anything else. And I have lower probe count, because defense 3-gate cuts probes at 24. I'm also supposed to expand after blink is done, since I have more units, but I often die to zealot-archon switch or DT's.

2) 2-gate robo immortal-sentry. Very easy to scout, but how do I break it? Opp sits in base till he has enough zealots and immortals. Most move down the ramp when 3-rd immortal is done and expand. My edge here is supposed to be tech, because he is already invested in sentries and immortals, so I need to build a counter tech, which is chargelot-archon (right?). But since he has early robo, he has early obs too, and scouts it easily, transitioning into mass blink stalker. Now I face immortal + blink stalker + zealot, which is stupidly hard to kill with zealot-archon. Stargate is theoretically an option due to initial low stalker count, but again, easily scoutable.

3) 3-gate into colossi. Do I even have any edge? If I go robo, I'll have lower colossus count. If I expand, I get crushed with superior 1-base army. Stalker+immortal? Have no idea. I respond by putting up a stargate and getting voidrays. I want to abuse colossus immobility and low stalker count to do heavy damage. Then, in battle, focus fire. However, voidrays need to be present in heavy numbers to make a difference, and opp pushes way before I get them rolling.

4) 4wg...well, I'm supposed to clear a 4-wg push, which I do. Only if opp commits. Most 4wg these days poke ramp, see a sentry, maybe lose a stalker or a zealot, then cancel pylons and retreat. What' my edge? Blink? He has more units (4 gates vs 3 gates). I do have higher probe count (3 more, all on 2nd gas), so I can technically get DT's, but most failed 4wg do in fact switch to robo, while massing zealots. Then emerge with zealot-immortal. So, even when I scare off an occasional 4wg, I have no idea what to do next.

What I did so far is squeezed an illusion research into the build. If opp isn't going 4wg, I don't really need that early sentry energy. Might as well get a hallucinated phoenix and scout with it. Question is - what exactly to do next?

Or, maybe, I need a more flexible opening. I saw WhiteRa play gate-robo-double gate, get warp prism and go lol at enemy with it. And every time he engages an opp, no1 ever focuses his warp prism loaded with immortals. So he drops 2x immortals right on top of colossi. Idk, when I tried it, first thing opp did is 1-shot the prism. Do I need an WhiteRa aura to make it invulnerable or something?

6x most recent PvP's attached:

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?...dacbd237b6abbd

[iM yang]

PvP is a difficult matchup to learn because you have to eek out advantages wherever you can get them. It's hard to explain the subtleties through text without any other material, my advice to you is to upload a couple replays; it's a lot easier to explain where you are supposed to go inside a replay because you have all the information.

[ProAnnn]

Alternatively you can 4gate every single game. Get a winrate of proly 60% np.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Yeah just need to learn a few variations of 4 gate an u'll be fine.

[Cyanide]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Alternatively you can 4gate every single game. Get a winrate of proly 60% np.

Haha, that's my problem, I can't even 4 gate effectively anymore. Don't know what's wrong.

I think i'm facing the same problem as Next_rim. The only thing I can tell myself is this. "Do exactly the same as your opponent, only do it better". I think my overall game has suffered because of this disillusionment with all matchups.

So much so that I'm definitely a Plat level MMR player despite sitting in Diamond.

[Daboo]

PvP is still bothering you rim...at my level a well executed 4 gate works wonders, (most 4 gates at the gold level land at something like 6:30 lol).

Most people tend to go blink stalkers nowadays, and if they think a 4 gate is coming they add a robo and pump out immortals. Colossi, have almost disappeared. And interestingly, ToD and White-ra tend to wall off their base with 2 gates-zealot while doing this build.

[AvPoker]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Alternatively you can 4gate every single game. Get a winrate of proly 60% np.

I can confirm this. 70% win rate pvp in GM with 4gate for me.

[Halstrom]

I found the best approach to PvP for me was to switch to Terran and have some fun

(Sorry......not helpful, but had to be said)

[Next_rim]

pokerface,

wtb replays. Especially on TA, Antiga, Shakuras. Especially vs 2-gate sentry immortal.

[xGKingdelete]

if you scout a 4gate, don't be afraid to 4gate yourself and just defend. you'll have the same timings, except you'll have the defender's advantage.

if you hold off a 4gate, just remember that you're in the same place as your opponent, except with a few more units and a couple of free pylon kills. you're ahead.

if your "edge" is the second gas, that means that you'll be ahead in whatever tech you choose. if going dts doesn't work against their robo, get your own robo instead and beat them that way.

[Next_rim]

Attached a replay pack of most recent 6 pvp's. Whatever mistakes I make are 90% due to me not knowing wtf I'm doing and wtf I'm supposed to do.

[Estancia]

3gate robo is imba if you are playing defensive. Probably most flexible build. Early scouting, 4gate gets countered by zealot immortals.
Also allows you to rush to colossi and roflstomp the opponent. Also allows you to expand while the opponent catches up in terms of tech.

[Daboo]

I watched the first game on antiga shipyard ...and honestly, I dont know what build you were trying there.

Firstly you manner pyloned yourself, which made you lose gas income quite a bit (you were getting 30 gas lower than your opponent). That in itself puts you behind by a bit.

It seemed like your plan was to get 3 gates and then react to what you saw. Teching up to a stargate, a twilight council. a dt shrine and an expo. it's quite clear that your pretty confused, maybe even panicking. The other guy went for a defensive 4 gate, followed by dts, which is a common build. I think you could've used any robo build/blink stalker and won especially because he was being so defensive. Blink stalkers could've killed him earlier, robo could've spotted the dts and then taken the zealots down w/ colossi.

I think in PvP it's isnt very easy to guess what the opponent is doing and react to it just because of how fast and volatile the match up is, I've pretty much accepted it thataway atleast, so I do whatever tech I want to do, and if I can react in time so be it, else it's a build order loss. But then I win more games this way.

If you want a more reactive build, you might want to look at the three stalker rush which allows you to do some early aggression and see what he might be upto, but then it is still a guess and you could be caught off guard and lose anyway.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Listen to this dude.

[ProAnnn]

Other than the 4 gate build, you can do defensive 3 gate robo into blink which is what every korean is doing now.

[sRFullstop]

I don't play Protoss, but in terms of improving, you shouldn't 4-gate every game just for the sake of winning. Playing to improve will help you in the long run.

[AxSGRiM]

I like going 1 gate 1 robo (and then addign 2 more gates). It counters 4 gate because I get the immortal out before he gets his second round of reinforcements. Basically I get the robo before I make my first stalker so that my immortal comes out faster and my 3 gates will go up the same time his 4 gates go up so i will have equal amounts of zealots and i have one ff. I then go for a Zealot Archon Immortal Composition, using observers to check when he expands and I make sure I have an expo around the same time. The comp I go (with upgrades) will easily A-Move my way out of Collosus play which is what I see Masters level Protosses still do.

[Estancia]

3Gate robo is the best defensive build that I've got so far.
- 4gate gets owned by zeal immortal.
- Immortal zealot rips apart mass stalker rush.
- Early scouting
- You can expand earlier, with the scouting info, or
- Choose to go for 2 colossus push

[PiG]

Adelscott's Late Gas PvP is pretty cool but takes precise timings on your BO:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...s_Late_Gas_PvP

Check it, found it can really smash.

[Xeen]

BLINK STALKERS EVERY GAME

EVEN IF YOU LOSE TO ROBO YOU LOOK LIKE A BOSS

Except on taldarim then you just 4gate

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

haha that and TDA part is so true. yea blink only loses to robo+good defence

[iM yang]

Adelscott's late gas expand build is really outdated and not at all recommended.
I practically go 3 gate robo into colossus every game. Basically if they hit a 7min blink stalker push you need 1 immortal, 8 minutes you need 2 immortals. Counter fast expansions with 2 colossus timing push w/o range. There are subtleties in any PvP build where you can eek out advantages everywhere from beginning to end, you basically just need to have a plan going in to a game to learn from what works and doesn't work and go from there.

Just saw the gate robo gate gate suggestions, this build dies to really aggressive 4gates and can't be disguised well enough to not die to regular 4gates.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Halstrom]

If you are ok with precise builds, check this out. It's Liquid Tylers variations of Day 9's 10 gate fast Immortal build. Not sure how robust it is vs. other stuff, but it's designed to waste aggressive 4 gates.
http://blip.tv/file/5266273

Also, this is worth a look. Day9 talks about finding the edge in PvP with the prominence of 4 gates.
http://blip.tv/file/5360495