[SiF]

Spanishiwa, we all know him; he came out of nowhere and into the spot light with his "innovative" zerg build.

In my recent experiences there are a lot of fan boys using his build on ladder at the moment in high Masters. The thing that bothers me though is that everyone seems to be copying a player who in my opinion isn't that talented.

This may seem ironic as my skill level is nowhere near that of any pro player but I label Spanishiwa as nothing more than a build order winner. Sure it was cool that he came up with something new; and I do agree that his build counters a variety of other builds thus enabling zerg's ability to make drones en mass.

The problem with this though is that now, because everyone knows Spanishiwa's play style his default build order win button is nullified. Simply take his recent game vs. Drewbie. Spanishiwa failed to demonstrate any adaptability in his build to counter what Drewbie was doing.

So my plea to the SEA community is to stop using Spanishiwa's build as a staple. Ensure that you work on your game as a whole with different builds.

Otherwise I'm just going to rape you every game gg~

[Benji]

I fail to understand what you mean by a build order winner. Spanishiwa's style is a safe, macro style that forces the game into the midgame. Build order wins usually happen in the first 8 minutes.

[deL]

Benji's right, we should overlook the fact that using Spanishiwa's build is bad practice in order to argue semantics.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by deL

Benji's right, we should overlook the fact that using Spanishiwa's build is bad practice in order to argue semantics.

I've never used it, so i'm not exactly an expert on it, i'm sorry I made a post, but if its such bad practice, why are people mixing it into their play (Idra in NASL, Zenio in NASL and GSL)?

[Satu]

Step 1. Claim that Spanishiwa isn't that talented

Step 2. Have ONE example of his build failing

Step 3. Wait for the people en mass to agree with you

Unfrotunately, Spanishiwa IS a talented player, he has to be to be able to make that build, execute it correctly and pull off some of the stuff I've seen him do while streaming.

For example, spine crawlers at the front of his base, four queens and a handful of lings. Then he finds out his opponent proxied a pylon in his main, and was fourgating. No problem! Move two spines up, dont lose anything while he tries to attack your queens and completely demolish the push.

Not to mention he 4-0'd TLO.

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

[SiF]

Sorry please let me clarify.

What I mean by build order win is that if Spanishiwa secures a large economic lead (as intended with this build) it is very difficult for his opponent to match the sheer size of his army / production.

Additionally it is very difficult for a ground or air army to disrupt the drone production due to the spines and queens.

Therefore I believe the mid game as you put it is rather one sided and a default win. I can see that there are exceptions but I'm only going off my experience so far.

I've found that if you:
1. Try and compete in the macro sense it very difficult due to drone production.
2. Try to disrupt drone production through prodding with your army it is difficult due to spines and queens
3. Try to abuse the zerg's lack of gas you can often gain the advantage early on

[SiF]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

Yeah I understand what you're saying and I agree that he is a talented player when you consider the whole spectrum of players. I didn't specify that my opinion is that he is not as talented or well rounded as other PRO players such as idra and oGsTheWind.

Obviously you're a fan boy though so feel free to 1v1 me with his build anytime ;D

[Benji]

Isn't zerg aiming for a super large econ and pulling ahead in the midgame what EVERY ZvX strategy is like?

I am curious as to how you gain a BO win vs it, he has options for spines vs Gateway allins, 4 queens + options for spores vs Stargate play, I am curious as to how you hardcounter it.

[SiF]

I don't want to say what my counter is on a public forum however I'd like to show u in a custom tonight - k?

[Benji]

I dont use the build, so no.

If your build only works by suprise, its hardly a solid build counter.

[Satu]

I dont use the spanishiwa build either, only really on special occasions (lol).

Even if I am a fanboy, that does change his recent results in games vs other pros.

His build is pretty well rounded, even if theres a clear counter to his build, he doesn't go for it 100% of the time, so you can be caught off guard very easily if trying to blind counter.

[cruxis]

oGsMC, we all know him; he came out of nowhere and into the spot light with his "innovative" Protoss build.

In my recent experiences there are a lot of fan boys using his build on ladder at the moment in high Masters. The thing that bothers me though is that everyone seems to be copying a player who in my opinion isn't that talented.

This may seem ironic as my skill level is nowhere near that of any pro player but I label oGsMC as nothing more than a build order winner. Sure it was cool that he came up with something new; and I do agree that his build counters a variety of other builds thus enabling Protoss's ability to make sentries en mass.

The problem with this though is that now, because everyone knows oGsMC's play style his default build order win button is nullified. Simply take his recent game vs.(Insert a game where he lost here). oGsMC failed to demonstrate any adaptability in his build to counter what (Player) was doing.

So my plea to the SEA community is to stop using oGsMC build as a staple. Ensure that you work on your game as a whole with different builds.

Otherwise I'm just going to rape you every game gg~

[SiF]

It's not a blind counter - you can scout expo + pool with no gas :P

[SiF]

LOL @ Cruxis ...point taken.

[matthras]

There is one apparent weakness in Spanishiwa's build - the late gas means one going for this build essentially gives up map control in order to secure a strong economy. This essentially means one's opponent can easily double expand since one will be incapable of pressuring throughout the early game.

However, I don't use it myself (getting gas that late makes me really uncomfortable) so I wouldn't know about any 'hard counters'. Regardless, it's a good build to mix into one's repertoire and allows for a bit of tweaking with gas preferences.

[aztecx]

I may still opt for 14p 14g against terran but against Protoss i love using the spanishiwa build. It has also taught me a lot about things such as gas timings and droning whilst staying safe. If you ever watch spanishiwa he's a VERY good player.

EDIT: Trust a protoss player to not understand anything about the game, except that 4gate wins you games.

Quick Comments

Skitz:

[pikk0n]

Despite what you may say, I still believe that Spanishiwa should be respected. His BO is not something ANYONE can follow. It requires a great amount of gamesense. You should tune into his livestream before making those claims. He may not be as talented as other players with their crazy build orders and I believe that he has spent a significant amount of time in the lower league losing games in order to perfect his playing method. However, in that process, he has gained a significant insight into his race. His knowledge on zerg is rather incredible. He's able to spit out build times and health points instantly. I was certainly impressed by his knowledge when watching his stream. He may not be as talented but he is definitely a very hardworking player and should be respected on that basis alone. As for his BO, it's doable but only if you have the gamesense that he has (scouting and prediction of your opponent's BO) and that certainly involves losing lots of games. Spanishiwa did take a long time to break into the scene. There is a reason why even IdRA himself finds Spanishiwa's BO impractical despite how effective Spanishiwa is able to make it. Diss his BO but do not diss the man. His effort to get to where he is is admirable.

Please check the Spanishiwa vs TLO games. TLO is one of the most talented players with the craziest BOs and Spanishiwa was able to beat him rather convincingly.

[deL]

@pikk0n - That's exactly a reason you shouldn't use it. You should go through a similar process to understand the race instead of just imitating a build. There are more efficient builds to perfect in order to properly understand the game/race than Spanishiwa's.

[Skitz]

Spanishiwa is great, you don't get to the top of GM without having some skill, though I'm not as impressed with his build, it has it's uses but I don't think you should be using it every single game.

You forgo any form of map control and delay your tech, for an econ boost that is spent mostly on queens and spines. Has it's advantages and weaknesses like any other build.

It's safe from harass, you still get a solid econ, but you can't do shit all to the other player until 50 food at least... So what do you do against someone who just expands to the gold? They don't have to worry about any unit other than slow lings for a long time. You have no chance to put on pressure, they don't have to worry about any kind of bust at all.

Good build but it isn't magic, it has weaknesses, so mix up your play.

[pikk0n]

@deL: Yep. That's quite my point but I was defending Spanishiwa himself more than the BO. :P I agree with the part about lower players not using his BO unless they plan to be demoted. However, I just find that Spanishiwa shouldn't cop so much flak over his BO because he is able to make it work which is testament enough for his ability. The ones who should be copping the flak is the players who are copying his BO and epicly failing though if they are prepared to lose, we really shouldn't care that much. Everyone's willing to lose in order to find something that works for them in the future (though it's hard to see how the BO is able to work for any other player apart from Spanishiwa). Just giving credit where it's due.