[Firehawk]

Hey guys,

Me and my mate are having trouble beating ZT teams that go pure roach + fast tech to siege tanks as ZP. They push at 6 minutes and it's always when I'm just starting to warp in. This is for the CyberGamer 2v2 CGo finals, and our next match is against a team we've lost twice to.

Don't have any replays unfortunately.


Thanks for any advice!

[ZergGirl]

Proxy gate and 10 pool gogo.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

you understand 2v2 :)

[TABjornbrandr]

From my mediocre experience in 2v2 (ZT team, Diamond level; myself being zerg), I've personally found that zerg should be applying sufficient pressure initially to allow for their team-mate to approach the tech they wish to have mid-game. If the zerg player in your team is not currently being aggressive, try a heavy ling opening (bling potentially as you don't have the hellions that I do in my team).

Other than that, my knowledge really isn't that fantastic so a replay could help if you can get one sometime.

[mGGAequitas]

Im master 2v2 and i've found the biggest difference is coordination, if you can coordinate your attacks and defense well with your teammate you will most likely win.
Also when you coordinate well you can try exploiting your opponent lack of coordination. A lot of the time I scout that they are attacking my teammate and myself but they're armys are really split up. My partner and i attack as soon as possible so that it is essentially 2v1 and we completely destroy the first army then the 2nd army falls easily too

[Next_rim]

I'm plat 2v2 with friend (I'm random, he is protoss). When we face PZ vs TZ, he does fast HT (like very fast, gate-core-TC-archives), I do 1-base sling roach and feed my P some gas (200-250 is enough usually). I maintain map control and do pokes, buying time for storm. Once storm is done, any no-ghost push can be cleared ez-mode, especially if T is heavy bio.

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I'm plat 2v2 with friend (I'm random, he is protoss). When we face PZ vs TZ, he does fast HT (like very fast, gate-core-TC-archives), I do 1-base sling roach and feed my P some gas (200-250 is enough usually). I maintain map control and do pokes, buying time for storm. Once storm is done, any no-ghost push can be cleared ez-mode, especially if T is heavy bio.

what do you do against standard early pool into sling/hellion?

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Trusty

what do you do against standard early pool into sling/hellion?

If done by a really good team on NA, usually I die (as ZP). Multiple Rank 1 2v2 Masters player here.

Best bet for ZP seems to be for Z to also go early-ish pool (10pool is abit safer than 14/14 given ZT often opens 6/7/8 pool) and P to do optikzero's very fast version of triple stalker rush (he does this in 2v2 as well). B/o is 12gate/14gas/16 pylon & core/18 gate, 19 stalker, stop probes on 22 (20 probes), 22 Stalker Stalker (which should bring you to 26 supply). Make second gas/pylon on 26 and then resume probes. Chronoboots should be 2x Nexus, 1x wg, and 1 on second and third stalker (not the first). Gives you 3 Stalker at around 4.30, to allow you to survive the hellion/ling timing push, which hits about this time. Depending on how hard they're rushing, you can also cb out two further stalkers off 2gate (5 stalkers around or just after the 5 minute mark).

Your aim should be to survive the attack, which hits at 4.30 to 5 minutes. In the battle, you should use the stalkers to target the hellions. Try to avoid having your stalkers isolated by his lings etc. If you survive, counter or tech as desired. Incidently, this build also works fine against the other powerful ZT timing attack, the ling/gasless marine rush, which usualy hits 30 seconds to 1 minute before you get wg up.

Yes I know Zerg is going lings and you don't have a zealot. This is why I suggest your zerg ally opens (at the latest) 10pool. Think about it like this - your job is to smash the hellions (or kite the marines) and hopefully go for a quick counter against terran if he overcommitted to the rush (hellions are pretty much useless against stalkers). I am assuming your zerg ally at least matches your opponent ling for ling.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Hey guys,

Me and my mate are having trouble beating ZT teams that go pure roach + fast tech to siege tanks as ZP. They push at 6 minutes and it's always when I'm just starting to warp in. This is for the CyberGamer 2v2 CGo finals, and our next match is against a team we've lost twice to.

Don't have any replays unfortunately.


Thanks for any advice!

ummmm i'm a predominantly 2v2 player (season1: 3k masters 2v2r season2: 2x ZP team 78%+, ZT team 89%) but I haven't played in a while so I might not be 100% on the ball.

Generally in ZT my teammate opens 3g robo if no gas before rax scouted or early cheese. Depending on the map I either open 13p lings or 13/14p roaches (most maps I open roaches). If terran is going rine/tank and looks like he might be aggressive, it is important I think for protoss to get out an immortal (they are probably more useful in latest patch too) whilst teching to 1-base collo with some gas feed from me. I like to tech fast to lair and get roach speed and either +1 attack or +1 defense. The most important thing is to try and not get contained which is why roach speed is so important, and maneuvering your roaches between enemy base and yours in the situation of a contain. Picking off reinforcements to either buy time, weaken the enemy or split up enemy zerg/terran team. Against tanks I would most likely get +1 armour because I require my roaches to tank as much damage as possible whilst the protoss deals the damage.

Originally Posted by Tom

If done by a really good team on NA, usually I die (as ZP). Multiple Rank 1 2v2 Masters player here.

Best bet for ZP seems to be for Z to also go early-ish pool (10pool is abit safer than 14/14 given ZT often opens 6/7/8 pool) and P to do optikzero's very fast version of triple stalker rush (he does this in 2v2 as well). B/o is 12gate/14gas/16 pylon & core/18 gate, 19 stalker, stop probes on 22 (20 probes), 22 Stalker Stalker (which should bring you to 26 supply). Make second gas/pylon on 26 and then resume probes. Chronoboots should be 2x Nexus, 1x wg, and 1 on second and third stalker (not the first). Gives you 3 Stalker at around 4.30, to allow you to survive the hellion/ling timing push, which hits about this time. Depending on how hard they're rushing, you can also cb out two further stalkers off 2gate (5 stalkers around or just after the 5 minute mark).

Your aim should be to survive the attack, which hits at 4.30 to 5 minutes. In the battle, you should use the stalkers to target the hellions. Try to avoid having your stalkers isolated by his lings etc. If you survive, counter or tech as desired. Incidently, this build also works fine against the other powerful ZT timing attack, the ling/gasless marine rush, which usualy hits 30 seconds to 1 minute before you get wg up.

Yes I know Zerg is going lings and you don't have a zealot. This is why I suggest your zerg ally opens (at the latest) 10pool. Think about it like this - your job is to smash the hellions (or kite the marines) and hopefully go for a quick counter against terran if he overcommitted to the rush (hellions are pretty much useless against stalkers). I am assuming your zerg ally at least matches your opponent ling for ling.

I have never tried your build but generally what me and drone would do is still go 3g robo but make slight changes to our builds and play-style (ultra-defensive).

I would throw down 2 spinecrawlers in my base and go mass roach with quick +1 attack and only tech till tier 2 later. I will never move out against mass-ling with roaches until I have a size-able force and won't lose everything to a ling surround. Till then I make sure to hug walls to minimise the ling surface area.

Drone will still go 3g robo but focus on making more GW units and a slower tech to collosus, skipping immortal production. The biggest difference is that we don't attack until we have at least 2-3 collosus. The reason being, against good players who macro well, even if we manage to defend first ling/hellion attack and kill all their units, by the time slow roaches and gw units get across the map to counter-attack, the enemy team will have reproduced lings and have hellion+stimmed marauder which will DESTROY our army.

The weakness of their build is that the longer the game goes on, the further behind they get because of their lack of economy. My roaches become far more cost effective in mass as the game goes on, and so does my protoss teammates units who now has collosus thrown into the mix.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Hey guys,

Me and my mate are having trouble beating ZT teams that go pure roach + fast tech to siege tanks as ZP. They push at 6 minutes and it's always when I'm just starting to warp in. This is for the CyberGamer 2v2 CGo finals, and our next match is against a team we've lost twice to.

Don't have any replays unfortunately.


Thanks for any advice!

ummmm i'm a predominantly 2v2 player (season1: 3k masters 2v2r season2: 2x ZP team 78%+, ZT team 89%) but I haven't played in a while so I might not be 100% on the ball.

Generally in ZT my teammate opens 3g robo if no gas before rax scouted or early cheese. Depending on the map I either open 13p lings or 13/14p roaches (most maps I open roaches). If terran is going rine/tank and looks like he might be aggressive, it is important I think for protoss to get out an immortal (they are probably more useful in latest patch too) whilst teching to 1-base collo with some gas feed from me. I like to tech fast to lair and get roach speed and either +1 attack or +1 defense. The most important thing is to try and not get contained which is why roach speed is so important, and maneuvering your roaches between enemy base and yours in the situation of a contain. Picking off reinforcements to either buy time, weaken the enemy or split up enemy zerg/terran team. Against tanks I would most likely get +1 armour because I require my roaches to tank as much damage as possible whilst the protoss deals the damage.

Originally Posted by Tom

If done by a really good team on NA, usually I die (as ZP). Multiple Rank 1 2v2 Masters player here.

Best bet for ZP seems to be for Z to also go early-ish pool (10pool is abit safer than 14/14 given ZT often opens 6/7/8 pool) and P to do optikzero's very fast version of triple stalker rush (he does this in 2v2 as well). B/o is 12gate/14gas/16 pylon & core/18 gate, 19 stalker, stop probes on 22 (20 probes), 22 Stalker Stalker (which should bring you to 26 supply). Make second gas/pylon on 26 and then resume probes. Chronoboots should be 2x Nexus, 1x wg, and 1 on second and third stalker (not the first). Gives you 3 Stalker at around 4.30, to allow you to survive the hellion/ling timing push, which hits about this time. Depending on how hard they're rushing, you can also cb out two further stalkers off 2gate (5 stalkers around or just after the 5 minute mark).

Your aim should be to survive the attack, which hits at 4.30 to 5 minutes. In the battle, you should use the stalkers to target the hellions. Try to avoid having your stalkers isolated by his lings etc. If you survive, counter or tech as desired. Incidently, this build also works fine against the other powerful ZT timing attack, the ling/gasless marine rush, which usualy hits 30 seconds to 1 minute before you get wg up.

Yes I know Zerg is going lings and you don't have a zealot. This is why I suggest your zerg ally opens (at the latest) 10pool. Think about it like this - your job is to smash the hellions (or kite the marines) and hopefully go for a quick counter against terran if he overcommitted to the rush (hellions are pretty much useless against stalkers). I am assuming your zerg ally at least matches your opponent ling for ling.

I have never tried your build but generally what me and drone would do is still go 3g robo but make slight changes to our builds and play-style (ultra-defensive).

I would throw down 2 spinecrawlers in my base and go mass roach with quick +1 attack and only tech till tier 2 later. I will never move out against mass-ling with roaches until I have a size-able force and won't lose everything to a ling surround. Till then I make sure you hug walls to minimise the ling surface area.

Drone will still go 3g robo but focus on making more GW units and a slower tech to collosus, skipping immortal production. The biggest difference is that we don't attack until we have at least 2-3 collosus. The reason being, against good players who macro well, even if we manage to defend first ling/hellion attack and kill all their units, by the time slow roaches and gw units get across the map to attack, the enemy team will have reproduced lings and have hellion+stimmed marauder which will DESTROY our army. The weakness of their build is that the longer the game goes on, the further behind they get. My roaches become far more cost effective as the game goes on, and so does my protoss teammates units who now has collosus thrown into the mix.

EDIT: just thinking about it for a bit, I don't think that the quick stalker play can ever really win against a ling/hellion build when executed by a team of equal skill. The aoe from hellions on your lings gives a gigantic advantage to the ZT team, even with sick stalker micro. Once your lings are dead the zerg is free to surround your stalkers. After defending the first attack, what is your follow up plan? Continuing mass ling/gw production won't win you the game because a good ZT team should transition into ling/hellion/stimmed marauder which will destroy you, and that comes really quickly from a player with good macro.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by aztecx

EDIT: just thinking about it for a bit, I don't think that the quick stalker play can ever really win against a ling/hellion build when executed by a team of equal skill. The aoe from hellions on your lings gives a gigantic advantage to the ZT team, even with sick stalker micro. Once your lings are dead the zerg is free to surround your stalkers. After defending the first attack, what is your follow up plan? Continuing mass ling/gw production won't win you the game because a good ZT team should transition into ling/hellion/stimmed marauder which will destroy you, and that comes really quickly from a player with good macro.

I agree. As I said, when done by a good NA team, I usually die as PZ. However, I don't think sunken is the best bet, as any passive opening means you can be easily isolated and then double teamed by your opponent in a variety of ways. I presume your P ally also walls in when you sunken. This becomes a liability if your opponent goes (or switch to) reactor marine/tank. This build looks pretty similar (or identical) to the reactor hellion rush for the window in which you can scout it in 2v2!

I still think super fast 3/5 stalker is your best bet. My follow up plan if I see reactor hellion into marauder is robo/immortal. For instance, we got select (T)/optikzero (playing Z) 4 games in a row, and they did this build in the first three. Finally took the third game with the very fast stalker build above (cb 5 stalkers off 2gate/robo).

As to the aoe damage vs zerglings, this is correct. However, provided you focus fire the hellions with stalkers during the engagement, and let the stalkers tank ling hits to save hp for your allies lings, you actually come out ahead. You're correct that its all over if your stalkers get surrounded by lings. I think best positioning is to leave the stalkers in the middle of your ally's group of lings and move in this position (takes some coordination, but then this is what 2v2 is all about). Trick is for Z to not overmicro his lings in the engagement, or be overly timid of hellion hits - its only red flame after all. Sure the lings take a few hellion hits, but you'd be surprised how fast the stalkers clean up the hellions with focus fire, leaving your ling disadvantage offset by an advantage in having 5 basically untouched stalkers.

[ZergGirl]

Firehawk is a nice guy so I played some 2v2 with him, no issues.
Tom is (imo) the best person to listen to, in regards to 2v2, 3v3 and even 4v4

[Next_rim]

what do you do against standard early pool into sling/hellion?

Well, I open 10-pool regardless, so early lings are no threat to either of us. Then it's a matter of timings and micro, if I get roaches in good position in time, and if storm lands well on slings. Worst case - I lose all drones, but my P stomps the zerg in few minutes into abyss with chargelot + HT + archons, so we catch up. Or if we both lose probes, we go all-in, and chargelot + archon + roach do well against factory + pool.