[OverDrone]

Guys, how do I deal with ZvZ's? This match up seems to be the match up where I understand the least. Like for example I don't know the timing for 3rd expansion, don't know how to react if opponent goes for muta, and all the other general timings.
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AxidAir #201

[Satu]

If you need an entire guide for ZvZ, check out TGM on this website, or look at paid or free coaching options (Free coaching would be the easiest and safest choice at your level imo). Specfics can be pretty easily answered in threads like these.

As for the specifics you mentioned in the OP:

If your opponent is going mutas, go for infestors while making roaches and queens. Make 2-3 spores at each base, and creep spread to join your bases up. You should have a 3rd base before mutas hit you as mutas take a long time to get onto the map. If you don't have one, either go allin or play from behind.

Try to take the 3rd expo after you hit 40-50 supply, its good to make either lings and banes or roaches and banes to cover it. You can also choose whether you want to push to put pressure on your opponents 3rd at the same time, which will help cover your own 3rd as well.

[RVLiveR]

ZvZ is actually one of the hardest MUs to play imo. It is very hard to tell you what to do, because its all about reacting to what he does. In addition, ZvZ is very fragile, so a slight mistake might cost you the game. It is very frustrating.

Playing mutas, for example, requires you to go infestors + queens, but if you screw up your fungals then he may as well just win the game anyways.

Your third base, in general, should be taken as early as you feel you can take it. However, you should aim to get it faster than your opponent. That being said, if your opponent takes a third, take one for yourself anyways, and attack his third.

I feel like you should pick a solid composition and just learn to do it well, as this will reinforce your mechanics very well, and will teach you a lot about army positioning and eventually you will learn to deal with all the things that can come at you. I picked ling/infestor/ultra, which is slightly more fragile, the "standard" used to be roach/infestor vs roach/infestor but lately people have also been experimenting with a little bit of mutas and then quickly going roach/infestor, and some people have also been playing with roach/hydra timings.

[Shieldz]

agree with satu he is a pro zerg i believe him

[OverDrone]

How about the general timing for lair?

[sRWinter]

Basically around 2 base mineral saturation is when you want to get a lair, until you're more experienced/comfortable in the matchup i'd recommend going either
15pool
15hatch
17 gas

or a hatch first build, depending on your comfortability and the 'metagame' at your level (i.e. dont hatch first if 50%+ of your zvzs the opponent goes for a 6/7/10 pool)

and after you get 100 gas for speed, just leave the 3 drones in the extractor, throwing down a baneling nest at the next 80gas if they went hatch first, or straight away at 50 gas if they didnt hatch first (this can be the timing for your spine crawler, too)

once you're saturated on your 2 bases (18 per mineral line plus the 3 in gas, roughly) you can start your lair, an evo chamber for +1 attack, a roach warren and go up to 3 geysers total.

throw a ling up into their natural, if you see little to no units, grab your third at this time (if they're already getting a 3rd just make one too) and make another round of drones. at this point you should pretty much be able to win with a +2 roach hydra (get roach speed!) push off 3 bases until you get into higher leagues, where roach infestor may be the better choice, and is a pretty strong composition even if they go muta etc.

you can add me as steve-izzy on skype if you want me to look at any specific replays or watch you play etc

[Shieldz]

oo i agree with sr winter that build basically best and most standard these days

[Raithen]

Two pointers from me.

To start learning ZVZ, work on scouting the opponent and mirroring what he does. Example, he 14 hatches you 14 hatch, he then put down a pool you put down yours, he takes a third, you take yours.

The second point is decide if you want to be agressive or defensive. Meaning if you're defensive you see his attacks comming, squeeze out 2 more drones and then hold his attack with the defenders advantage (spine support, shorter reinforcement).
If you're aggressive then you for example see him take his third, take some units go and smash that expansion while yours is going up then pull back to hold the lead.

Work out how to do these two things and your zvz will improve immensly, you will start to see critical timings and then you'll start to out play them.

[AxS.Xenovia]

ZvZ. imo, safest opening is 14p,14g,14/15hatch.

any cheese? no problem with 14/14 you can defend any kind of early cheese easily.

then comes the decision making. do you go roach/infester or mutas?

for me, i hate hate HATE mutas in sc2. too damn fragile to do anything. and if your opponent goes infesters thats you shut down.

what i love to do is go for roach infester. that pretty much covers almost everything.

opponent going for mtas? fungle. hydras? infest terrans while roaches go downtown on them, ling banes? with a few good fungles, ultras? roaches rip them apart, broods? burrow throw mass infest terrans underneath and that should do ok...(well from my experience silver dont really micro much..) itll be ezpz. oh and remember upgrades. 2/2 roaches vs 0/0 just rolls over everything

i might be wrong but dont bash me for it T_T

im a silver terran (former zerg) so i can relate (if your sig is showing your current league)

[Siq]

Concaves. The only thing that should be microed really. Never fight in a unfavorable concave, pull back and spread out backwards. Watch Stephano play zvz, how he relentlessly adjusts concaves or pulls back as almost the only micro.

Also, pick a style and stick to it. You need to learn all the timings and know exactly how to react and play things out if you see this and that, or the absence of this and make your own survival and win rules through experience. Develop your style as you need. You die every time to mutas at one timing? Then you need to change something, and it most likely is not your opener but a set choice you have to make at some point. I do believe you can have fairly good success up until diamond with a 2 base double up roach push (allin). It is kind of easy to execute and trains very basic mechanics. You should be able to spend all your 2 base worth of money doing double ups and two ovies per inject round making only roaches + some other minor things.

[TABjornbrandr]

Originally Posted by CBK Himari

ZvZ. imo, safest opening is 14p,14g,14/15hatch.

any cheese? no problem with 14/14 you can defend any kind of early cheese easily.

I really hate to rain on your parade (genuinely don't mean to come across as offensive here), but going 14/14 then dropping a hatch on 15 is going to put you behind.
If you 14/14, you're going to put on some speedling pressure whilst dropping a hatch around 21 or so, or you're going ling/bane all-in.
If you 15 hatch you're going for an economic advantage early on with higher mineral count defended by queens and spines until you get ling speed+banes and/or roaches.
Getting gas before going straight into a hatch is counter-intuitive. You either expand or you tech, doing too much at once will get you killed once your opponents become more competent.


Note: Getting your gas after your hatch (as Winter suggested) is the correct way to do it if you go pool first. Gas before hatch means bad econ and bad econ means you lose the advantage of an early expand and you might lose the hatch as well.

[OverDrone]

Thanks for all the advice!

[S2Glow]

if you need help just hit me a PM . Z v Z is a fun matchup. is just that you dont know much yet. if you know different build order you will love it! trust me heheh

[ZixmaSRG]

i have a problems with ZvZ too

[sRWinter]

you can add me ingame sRWinter.298 if you want to do some practice games/advice etc pusitbank;
I'm not super gosu but sitting around top 10 on ladder atm

[ZixmaSRG]

oh thx sRWinter
i'm changed my acc in this website pusitbank to ZixmaSRG
thx i will add you today

[x5.Stormz]

well your first problem is that you're over droning ahah get it? :P

But seriously what I do in a ZvZ is go 14 pool 19 Hatch. I try to get 4 queens out maybe more if I suspect a big attack and only a few lings to help defend. I also wall of my natural at 7:10 to the best of my ability with two evos a roach warren and a spine using a queen if absolutely necessary. This wall with help deflect speedling all ins and a lot of baneling aggression which could come. If your opponent does a 1 base all in consisting of roaches if you see it coming all you need to do is make sure you have 4 spines on the way and 4 queens to defend. That will hold off almost every type of 1 base roach play.