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Roach buff in HotS? Blog Options
New Fri, 15th-Jun-2012 10:01 PM
FaDeMeatex FaDeMeatex is offline
 
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Replies: 11
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This is almost certainly a pointless discussion at this stage but hey I think its interesting to consider
So everyone knows about the new fancy stuff coming for multiplayer in HotS (im particularly excited for the viper ^.^) But I spent far too much thinking about ramifications of the new stuff.

Click the image to open in full size.

First up the new zerg stuff - hey I'm a zerg player - is looking interesting. Not sure about swarm host tbh as it comes very late lair, costs a lot - thus delaying hive - and while locust are buff not sure how effective it will be as enemy can just kill them

Click the image to open in full size.

So apart from swarm host all the new zerg stuff is Hive tech - hopefully this leads to more interesting late game especially ZvP but I digress.
If we look at what the protoss get for a moment you'll see that much of it is more accessible early on - mothership core is cyber core tech i believe. Most of it is harass based though having recall available together with gateways without need for stargate tech at all is scary but what I want to discuss is the oracle, specifically entomb.

Click the image to open in full size.

So I think its fair to say the time is another resource in starcraft 2. Delaying an opponent, even if you are doing no direct damage is an effective way to get an advantage - like bunker pressure or pylon blocking hatches. This is where the oracle will come in. Entomb will do unstoppable econ damage to mining of 1 base per oracle built, cutting a players income. Each shield has 75hp - now think about how long it takes 3 drones to kill a marine (marines have 50 without combat shields) even if you catch it straight away there is still going to be a significant delay for the zerg player. zergs could invest in lings to shorten the delay but thats drones that you're not making and is also cutting into your econ.

Currently standard zvp usually involves fast 3 hatch and roach ling to hold any 2 base timing coming your way (if its coming). FFE into stargate play is common and a zerg can expect 1 voidray and maybe 3 pheonix. Against good zergs often they can't do much damage other than forcing couple of spores.
So what if the protoss makes 1 oracle. That takes less time than 4 units so less of your money is going into stargate thus allowing protoss to start other tech sooner. It is also guaranteed to do econ damage.
So this is going to delay timings, maybe you can't get your macro hatch up as quick as you like, you can't make as many drones/units as you'd like. It will also give you a glut of gas.

My thinking is that zerg will not be able to hold 2 base all ins going fast 3 base as the delay will mean less units to defend and even if the zerg cuts drone production earlier the protoss can simple recall if they get into trouble. Stargate tech will delay gateway pushes of course but the econ damage to the zerg will greatly affect unit production capabilities of the zerg. Or hell what if the protoss makes 2 oracles and takes third behind a gateway push? The potential problems it might cause zerg seem very scary especially as its harass that cannot be prevented by good micro.
Whats some other thoughts on this? Is it even possible to make the oracle worthwhile without making its indirect damage too strong?

With terrans new units being mech focused - the goliath seems to be a powerful anti armoured unit and roaches are armoured - is also worth thinking about. Usually zergs will want roaches against mech until they can get their tiear 3 out (usually broodlords). And already tanks and thors can tear through roaches if the zerg isn't careful... what will happen if the goliath is as good against armour as it appears? Roaches will melt TT
Now indeed mech play usually involves lots of turtling so the zerg should be able to get vipers out but I have 2 concerns; will swarm hosts do anything or is the mech army likely to pause for mere split seconds to wipe all the locust out? And even if the zerg can pull a few units whats stopping the terran army a-moving into the zerg ground army which I think will still be roach heavy?

Click the image to open in full size.
Make roaches flying a possible solution?

Well my thinking is that roaches will get a slight buff. If zerg will have less units against protoss timings and die too easily to new mech zerg needs some help surviving to hive and being able to have a role in new terran mech.
So thats my theory anyway. Of course there is likely to be changes made to hots units before we see a beta and then even more changes once players start finding what is OP and UP when beta is made public so treat this like it is. A fun little discussion about possibilities for anyone who likes that kind of thing / is bored

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Replies to Blog: Roach buff in HotS?
New Fri, 15th-Jun-2012, 10:17 PM   Race: Location: Sydney, Australia  Total Posts: 1,130  # 1
ROOT`iaguz
 
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

They did buff the roach! It's called hydra speed upgrade and you get it at hive tech now.
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New Fri, 15th-Jun-2012, 11:03 PM BnetId: mGGSwitch 788  Race: Clan: mGG  Location: Adelaide, Australia  Total Posts: 347  # 2
eCKo`Switch
 
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

I dearly hope that the speed upgrade is actually going to be useful.
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New Fri, 15th-Jun-2012, 11:19 PM BnetId: iMyang.427  Race: Clan: TA  Location: Victoria, Australia  Total Posts: 633  # 3
iM yang
 
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

no





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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 12:31 AM   Clan: None  Location: Melbourne  Total Posts: 2,231  # 4
inFeZa
 
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

Roaches are gay.
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 3:11 AM BnetId: AsGZealo.172  Race: Clan: AsG  Location: perth, australia  Total Posts: 607  # 5
Zealo
 
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

as a random player, my clearly unbiased opinion is that roaches should have 2 base armour, to balance the game better and shit.
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 4:00 AM BnetId: TAdippa.684  Race: Location: Sydney  Total Posts: 663  # 6
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

zerg needs more buffs, dafuq
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 9:03 AM BnetId: TAavanar.108  Race: Location: Sydney,Australia  Total Posts: 132  # 7
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

just....no...
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 10:02 AM BnetId: TtPiG.473  Race: Location: Sydney, Australia  Total Posts: 1,221  # 8
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

couple of oracles would do similar damage to vr-phenix harass.

Standard Protoss air harass forces: 2 extra queens, minimum 3 spore crawlers.

Oracle harass: you don't need extra queens or spores. Therefore you can just put those minerals into lings left at main and 3rd which will chew through stasis in seconds. This will largely mitigate the Oracle harass damage. Meanwhile there is no VR clearing up overlords and lings on the map and so the zerg feels 100% safe with map vision and easy scouting.

2-base timings after Stargate openers will still suck balls.


ZvT:

I think you meant to refer to the warhound rather than the goliath. Tbh it's anti-armour attack is pretty bad in my opinion its current stats were horrid. pretty much a marauders ground attack (minus the bonus damage to armoured) paired with a missile attack that does only 30dmg/6seconds. Sounds kinda like the swarm host *cough* useless.

That being said the buffed helions will buffer for mech so well that roaches will have trouble engaging mech. Nonetheless roaches are so strong to begin with that if they were buffed there would be no reason to not just allin every game. I can honestly see the infestor getting revamped and roaches removed from the game or nerfed.
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 4:40 PM BnetId: RicocheT  Race: Clan: mGG  Location: Perth  Total Posts: 390  # 9
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

Roaches have so much HP @.@
Buff, nonsense.
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 5:00 PM BnetId: sRGRiM.784  Race: Clan: N/A  Location: Hong Kong  Total Posts: 860  # 10
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

**** roaches
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New Sat, 16th-Jun-2012, 7:38 PM   Total Posts: 828  # 11
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Re: Roach buff in HotS?

Funny how PiG is the only one who read the blog

and on what PiG said 1 speedling will do 8.6 damage per second - i you have 8 lings (1 for each mineral patch) thats still over 8 seconds of no mining. 7 seconds with queen and if you instantly start attacking with drones and instantly restart the drones mining once the shields are down.

3 pheonix is 450 minerals and 300 gas and the void ray bring that up to a total of 700 minerals 450 gas not including the stargate tech. Without chrono 2 minutes 45 seconds. lets say 4 chronoboosts are used on the stargate that is still 2 minutes 05 seconds.
An oracle costs (at present) 150 minerals and 200 gas with 60 second build time without chrono
I believe you can only chrono 1.75 times for a 60 second unit but lets say 2 chronos on stargate for the 1 oracle.
The protoss not only has 250 extra gas and 550 minerals he gets extra chronos for other things.

The zerg responding with lings to kill the shields eats into his drone count more than build 1 spore at each base (usually i see zergs only make at natural and third unless protoss is making a lot of stargate units) and 2 extra queens. Without the spores the oracles will never take hull damage assuming the protoss has the apm to shift click the oracle away - until hydras or mutas can catch it out.
Not to mention that with regular stargate play the zerg is safe to drone more than usual cause he knows its a big time investment.

Preordain also will be very useful and protoss may even be able to skip observers to get immortals or col out quicker
But I think the protoss will have to choose one or the other...
Anyway still feel like zerg is going to be able to be set back very very easily for minimal investment and the oracle is going to allow for more possible timings from the protoss.
What if he makes 2-3 oracles and locks down all your mineral lines while taking third? Zerg isn't going to be able to get enough units to prevent the third despite the protoss sinking a lot of gas in to stargate tech thus meaning fewer sentries. All ins will be weaker as well with the mothership core on natural or third once its completed.
And if swarm hosts aren't able to change the zerg dynamic of needing to prevent protoss third or have 1-2 extra hatches then zvp is going to fall apart... potentially.
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