SC2SEA.com - Starcraft 2 SEA eSports Community Site

syfCabracan · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 5:33 PM

The discussion that came out of this lead to one of the most active nights on chatbox in ages. Just keep that in mind when making moderator decisions.

**mGGNemesis** · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 5:42 PM

Well considering that I (or any mod) didn't immediately ban or issue any warnings when it first started, I think shows sufficient space and time for discussions in this thread or in the chatbox. A healthy discussion is fine. However there are signs that it is derailing and heading towards a less healthy direction.

Both NXZ and Spartaz have also explained why the posts arent the most 'helpful' around as part of the discussion. So if it DOES continue in that downward direction, I think it has had its share of 'primetime/limelight' etc without being productive and will need a mod to intervene.

Just because a topic or discussion stirs the chatbox to a 'high discussion' in chatlines, doesnt mean it gets to stay if it is derailing or negative or more 'drama' for drama's sake.

I'm not the best with words but I hope I got the message through.

Plottel · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 5:44 PM

You don't have to be a good player to be a good coach. Montecristo is in Silver in LoL and there's an LCK coach who is low Platinum (can't remember who off-hand).

The 'physical' aspect of eSports definitely exists. It's APM, mouse accuracy and the ability to make split-second decisions under pressure. A coach doesn't need to do any of these things. The idea that you have to have a high level of performance to have a high level of understanding is ludicrous - especially given how many resources there are out there nowadays.

Additionally, just because you understand something and can perform it does not mean that you are capable of conveying it in a clear, concise manner that clicks with your student - it's an entirely different skill set. I work at a gymnastics school and the feedback from students is that the best teachers are rarely the ones who have had the most successful, illustrious careers. I'm sure everyone has experienced the same thing at school, the teacher with the most credentials is not necessarily the one who can teach you the most.

The ONLY thing being a skilled player does for a coach is help with credentials. People are naturally skeptical and being a better player than them can make them more inclined to listen to what you have to say.

JunO · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plottel

You don't have to be a good player to be a good coach. Montecristo is in Silver in LoL and there's an LCK coach who is low Platinum (can't remember who off-hand).

The 'physical' aspect of eSports definitely exists. It's APM, mouse accuracy and the ability to make split-second decisions under pressure. A coach doesn't need to do any of these things. The idea that you have to have a high level of performance to have a high level of understanding is ludicrous - especially given how many resources there are out there nowadays.

I agree, you don't need to be a good player to be a good coach. Just reading the examples of his build choice above is enough to tell me he doesn't have 'high level' credentials. Build orders decided in the first 3 minutes can be made without being under pressure.

The merits of a good coach in Starcraft (strictly Starcraft) is resources. If you can't put in the hours to keep up with the meta, keep up with map structures and keep up with just overall game knowledge, you've failed your merits.

In Starcraft at least, you need to be able to perform at a certain standard to become a good coach. 3 of the 7 coaches in KeSPA are or was Code A in the past 2 seasons (1 of them in Code S) and all of them can hold their place at a reasonably high place on ladder.

**mGGNemesis** · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 6:10 PM

A little unrelated to the topic, I'm curious.

When someone says the number of hours spent on sc2 is not a lot or many, what is your perspective in terms of hours? Like is 2 hours a day on sc2 considered a lot, moderate or little? Do practice games count or just ladder as quality sc2 time? Does watching streams and VODs count as time spent on sc2?

EDIT : I think I might start a thread for this instead

...........

On another note...

I may not have seen many or any of Stally's games on ladder but I know that he ladders when he is able to including in the mornings. He practices as custom games and watches some streams or vods. He even did some casting recently as part of his involvement and contribution to the community. I'm pretty sure he does not FFE in pvz if at all, now. Maybe in early lotv? or as an experiment to see how it goes? MIxing it up maybe? I've seen some masters/gm tosses who still fiddle with trying to cannon rush (and reminders why it isnt as good now; I actually had some fun cannon rushing in hots and miss that... sometimes)

He is merely suggesting how he can contribute in terms of coaching. And I'm sure teams are not so naive to just take things at face value and if they should choose to work with him, they will be able to assess if his contributions in coaching etc is beneficial or not to the team or not.

Stallion · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 6:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mGGNemesis

A little unrelated to the topic, I'm curious.

When someone says the number of hours spent on sc2 is not a lot or many, what is your perspective in terms of hours? Like is 2 hours a day on sc2 considered a lot, moderate or little? Do practice games count or just ladder as quality sc2 time? Does watching streams and VODs count as time spent on sc2?

EDIT : I think I might start a thread for this instead

...........

On another note...

I may not have seen many or any of Stally's games on ladder but I know that he ladders when he is able to including in the mornings. He practices as custom games and watches some streams or vods. He even did some casting recently as part of his involvement and contribution to the community. I'm pretty sure he does not FFE in pvz if at all, now. Maybe in early lotv? or as an experiment to see how it goes? MIxing it up maybe? I've seen some masters/gm tosses who still fiddle with trying to cannon rush (and reminders why it isnt as good now; I actually had some fun cannon rushing in hots and miss that... sometimes)

He is merely suggesting how he can contribute in terms of coaching. And I'm sure teams are not so naive to just take things at face value and if they should choose to work with him, they will be able to assess if his contributions in coaching etc is beneficial or not to the team or not.

yea to clear this up the forge was for a cannon rush cos i was tilting from ladder before even playing, if you want to check just ask david, i was tempted to just walking over but thought id be bm for making people wait. i pulled out of the cannon rush because i hadnt even done one in years so went for the macro option out of a bad call. thank you to everyone who viewed this properly and not looking for drama where it wasn't needed. ive said my bit im not here for drama if anyone is interesting feel free to contact me.

Have a good day/week/year
Stally

SLCN.Wally · Wed, 17th-Feb-2016, 7:00 PM

Any sort of criticism is now considered drama

Fullmetal · Thu, 18th-Feb-2016, 12:15 PM

The nature of Starcraft 2 has conditioned players, especially the professionals to be autonomous. To coach in Starcraft 2 you need to cater to the coaching culture of taking on a supportive niche rather than an authoritative role.

Most players, especially professional players refuse to listen to people who they do not see as equals or superiors, if you want to be seen as an equal you need to be very good at the game.

If you want to do coaching in E-Sports I would encourage you stay away from Starcraft 2 and go into LoL, csgo or Dota 2.

My advice if you want to coach in Starcraft 2 is to approach lower level teams and to build yourself a good reputation slowly over time as you improve your rank on ladder.

I would also recommend you join the Esports Coaching Network (google it).

**|Erasmus|** · Thu, 18th-Feb-2016, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatGuyDoMo

You're both missing and making my point. Starcraft is a conceptual game, knowledge = power and roughly translates into skill. It doesn't have a physical aspect that reigns you in.

e.g. Professional basketball players have perfect knowledge of how to shoot the ball, but the nature of their bodies prevents them from perfectly being able to do this, that is why you can have good coaches who understand the theory well without having the physical ability.

In sc2, it's virtually all knowledge, a good coach is also a good player. For example, a gold player cannot coach above a gold level. Skill is very intimately tied up with knowledge in this game.

Hope that made sense.

Mechanics are no longer part of this game?

There are things other than knowledge that affect ones ability at this game.

There are (I'm sure) plenty of decent starcraft players that would make terrible coaches because they lack the ability to communicate what needs to be done.

But just in general being able to prepare for a series, maps to veto, builds to use vs specific players or just on specific maps/matchups. These are things a coach can help with, without necessarily needing the ability to actually execute them to an exceedingly high level, surely?

ThatGuyDoMo · Thu, 18th-Feb-2016, 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Mechanics are no longer part of this game?

There are things other than knowledge that affect ones ability at this game.

There are (I'm sure) plenty of decent starcraft players that would make terrible coaches because they lack the ability to communicate what needs to be done.

But just in general being able to prepare for a series, maps to veto, builds to use vs specific players or just on specific maps/matchups. These are things a coach can help with, without necessarily needing the ability to actually execute them to an exceedingly high level, surely?

I by no means mean to say mechanics are not a part of the game (my mistake for being unclear), what I was trying to demonstrate was that the mechanics of Starcraft and your game skill and knowledge are all heavily correlated.

I also agree with you about not all people being able to communicate effectively. But I don't think I was ever raising any issues with that.

As for maps to veto, preparing builds and such, that is absolutely tied with having good game knowledge, and as I was arguing before, game knowledge appears to be highly correlated with skill. This is not to say you can't reach a certain level, say KR GM, and then possess more knowledge than your skill can demonstrate ofc. But I think at this level, the level Stallion is presenting, it just isn't enough sometimes. I.e. There is a set 'level' I think you need to reach skill wise before you can start being a truly effective coach (assuming you are a good communicator as well).

SLCNPezz · Fri, 26th-Feb-2016, 11:17 PM

I agree with wally and domo, you can't effectively coach players who are much better than you. Especially if you don't have much experience playing the game. Starcraft 2 is a game where you play a lot, and you learn slowly every game. It's not a game where you can just theory craft and be like "OK I understand this now". You actually have to put it into action, and the proof that what you're doing works is totally in your RESULTS. Whether it be ladder ranking or tournament results.

So many small things you learn from playing a lot and improving as a player, most notably build refinement.

Nonetheless, no need for personal attacks. Stally is a damn awesome guy (got along with him great at ACL brisbane 2014). But Stally, I think you're deluding yourself a bit if you think you can help players who have played a lot more than you - and therefore know a lot more than you about the game.

Edit: Err sorry for the necro lol don't really browse forums much and didn't check last post date.