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Learning from the Masters (1) Blog Options
New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011 12:01 AM
crAzerk crAzerk is offline
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+ [Old intro that is outdated but explains why I have this cheesy title] +
Hey! So I've decided to ladder on crAzerk (my Master league Zerg acct) again after getting more or less warmed up after my 2 months hiatus. Needless to say, I have still much to learn, and so this new series will be about my ladder experiences in in Master league -

Hey! So I've started laddering actively again, and am streaming it every time I do at http://www.twitch.tv/crazerk ! I will post here on the chatbox when I do (You should be able to see my stream under 'SEA livestreams' anyway). I usually stream when there's noone else is streaming anw, to avoid competition haha. So why not tune in! Can come and chat with me I love it

ANYWAY, streaming ad aside, I've decided to do this lessons learnt thing to help myself (and others improve). The original concept was to play in Master league acct, but I was losing every single game as my skill level is pretty crap so it felt kinda pointless - hey, we do need to win once in a while to have the motivation to play! So I decided to just play in Diamond, where it'll be more even and I can still learn!

So I will be blogging about the games... Specifically, my losses!

We all know a step towards improvement is to know why you lose each game, and so I thought this would help myself as well as provide some sort of reading material for the community

Each game I post will be of me either losing, or very barely winning because of some needless mistake, etc., followed by the lessons learnt. If you have no time to read the recap, just skip on to the 'lessons learnt' part, I'm sure many players can benefit from this as it will reinforce what NOT to do!

Ok enjoy!


Game 1
vs Arrogant (High Diamond) on Shakuras Plateau
Click the image to open in full size.

1) I opened with my standard 14/14 speedling opening, (more or less the safest and most robust opening for ZvZs) while he went 14/14 gas/pool too BUT went for a roach warren!
Click the image to open in full size.
Scouting ling barely escapes with his life

2) When I scouted the RW, I put down my own RW, after I had expanded at 21 (yes I was doing the typical speedling expand build)

3) When I saw that at 6 minutes + he still had not expanded neither had I caught sight of anything (besides his 3 roaches blocking his ramp), I suspected some sort of all-in rush , and hence threw down 2 spines, while I droned hard and teched to lair and started my +1 attack

4) Look at the minimap now
Click the image to open in full size.

I'm the red player - excellent Overlord spread, yes? I see the entire path to my base.
BUT. Do you see the little blue dot at the bottom left of my base? Wonder what that is for...

5) It was 8 minutes+, and still no rush had came. I was now expecting some sort of Muta rush, so I put down 2 spores and got another queen, as well as my own Spire.
Little was I to expect...

6)
Click the image to open in full size.
WTF NYDUS NETWORK RUSH

Seriously who does that? WHO DOES THAT. Well I've never seen it my whole diamond path, only probably in plat-ish at most? zzz.

And yes, that OL at the bottom left of my base was for vision to place the Nydus, and when it hit it was all but over - I had like, 3 roaches vs his 20 roaches + lings etc.


Lessons Learnt:
I'm not quite sure what I could have done better though. It seems perfectly legitimate to expect a Muta rush when he stays on one base, and I won't be able to scout until I hit Lair and get an Overseer.
Then again, perhaps 1 base muta in ZvZ is so weak that it's not feasible? Probably only manage 3-4 mutas with 1 base gas.

1) Expect a Nydus Network when opponent stays on 1 base for too long. Make sure to check entire perimeter to ensure it's OL free, perhaps have some lings patrolling around the perimeter of base, while turtling up in case it's some all-in rush.

Grab the replay pack here

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Game 2
vs YiDa (high Diamond) on Tal'Darim Altar

Cross spawn on this map, he goes FFE while I speedling expand.

1) I played it like a typical macro Zerg would do against FFE - early 3rd base, Drone like crazy till 8 minutes and then react according to scouting information
I need to learn some of those cool builds like Hydra drop and stuff heh.

2) Anyway, made a mistake of sending my OL over too slow - against a FFE you can more or less get a free OL scout into his main->expo because they typically won't have AA up that early, at most a sentry which takes ages to kill your OL.
So I had no idea what he had in his base, which wouldn't have mattered...

3) By 9 minutes still no sign of a push out or move out, so I was suspicious and put down a Hydralisk Den quickly, with precautionary spores at each base.

And somehow being the genius I am, when my Hydra den popped I made a round of 10..... Roaches. WTF was I doing??
Well I was getting Burrow + Roach speed + +1 so I was probably expecting some sort of Gateway timing push.. which I should NOT have (will explain later)

4) At 11 minutes he hit me - with 6 VRs. I had no Hydras out. It was GG.
Click the image to open in full size.
Note where his Stargates are -_- Proxied at the top left.


Lessons learnt:
1) I had my ling at his entrance the whole time, and didn't see any Chronoboost on CC or Forge.
Click the image to open in full size.
This should already signal some sort of Stargate play but I didn't react accordingly.

2) Always remember to send that OL floating in asap to scout for any fancy shenanigans.
If I had done this I would have seen nothing and then realize something is wrong and hopefully my game sense will make me get Hydras asap.

3) Any Gateway attack should hit by about 10 minutes - you should be seeing Warp-ins (assuming he doesn't hide it) before this, and when I didn't... I should have known Stargate play was coming.
I was too rigid and set on my burowed+1 roach which hard counters a Gateway army, so that prevented me from reacting properly (I even got the damn Hydra den already if those 10 Roaches had been Hydras I would have been more than ready to rape those VRs)

4) I hate FFE.


Grab the replay here!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Game 3
vs Adam on Tal'Darim Altar

We were cross spawn, and as everyone knows, Protoss ALWAYS FFEs on this map.
Click the image to open in full size.
So I made a friendly request,which he accepted.

Click the image to open in full size.
He lied.

1) He pylon blocked my natural, which was annoying as I was going for an earlier hatch than my usual speedling hatch (I tried 15 pool 15 hatch).

2) I remembered my mistake of not scouting his front from the previous game, so:

Click the image to open in full size.

Now I'm not quite sure why, but the excessive cannons seemed fishy to me. A typical wall in has just 2 cannons, but he had 3 (actually 4, but I didn't see it). Also, the forward placement of the cannon just struck me as odd.

3) Somehow, this led me to think that he was going for some Stargate build, so I decided to quickly get hydras.
I'm not sure if this is a bad read... But I've just learnt that when in doubt, get Hydras. I think I've been losing too much to Stargate builds so I'm hyper-sensitive.
Hydras do pretty well against some mass (blink) stalker build anw, and I very rarely see 6gate timing anymore (due to the easy burrow-roach counter)

4) True enough, he was going double stargate, and he only moved out when he had 4 phoenix - 2 VR - a tad too late it seems? As by the time he hit, out popped 7 hydras, and with a clutch transfuse I saved one Queen too.

5) I proceeded to overproduce Hydras, and when I saw the big army of Hydras I had, I decided to make a push, while taking a 4th.

6) Which turned out to be a bad idea, because he had an army of +1 chargelots + archons waiting for me

Click the image to open in full size.
He tore me apart easily.

7) I had droned up behind this, so I was slightly ahead in harvestors. I had also made the progression to roach/hydra, while teching to hive. He decided to take this chance to make a push with Zealot/Archon/Phoenix:

Click the image to open in full size.

I barely survive this push, and the main reason is because instead of using Phoenix to lift up roaches/hydras, he used them to go for my OLs! Thus I had enough firepower to clear his ground army.

I also noticed something in the replay - he stopped making Probes at about 60 probes - and was floating waaay too many minerals (2-3k). Needed more gateways I suppose.

8) I was making a conscious effort to stay on top of my expansions this game, as that was a problem that has plagued me the past few days - getting out macroed. (A previous problem was Creep spread, so I spent whole of Sunday emphasizing on Creep spread, and now it's decent )

9) I hit Hive tech, and made ling/roach/hydra/Ultralisks. We had an engagement...

Click the image to open in full size.
Ultras are good.

10) He had too many Zealots - From my past losses I always lose to some mass Stalker army - he probably needed that. Regardless, I did the intuitive thing to take out his 4th with my remaining army, and continued making ultras and going 3/3. He GGed out once his 4th went down.


Lessons learnt:
1) Dont overproduce Hydras.
I was VERY far behind in Drones in the early-mid game due to me panic-spamming Hydras and only overtook him because he more or less stopped making Probes. Probably about 10-12 is enough? Not 20.
(This was a tip from SatuSPR on my stream chat Thanks !)

2) Keep up in expansions - they win games.
My goal on the night of playing (these 3 games in this post are played on different nights) this game was to keep up on expansions - and they REALLY helped. With 4 base gas I could keep up with the t3 production and keep up with macro (though it's more of him falling behind)

3) Deny Terran and Protoss' 3rd expansions (on maps like Tal'darim where it's harder, deny the 4th then!)
After coming back to the game (After my hiatus), I realized I became very passive and wasn't very good at staying on top of T or P's expansions. I added this to my mental checklist - almost managed to force a cancel in this game with a runby of lings but he warped in +2 lots which cleared up lings easily.

But as you can see, denying his 4th already gave me the mental victory over him - well, granted, he was low on resources and army too, but we all know how strong a Protoss army is, he MAY have had been able to secure his 4th with a reproduced army.. but he gave up after his 4th fell

4) Hive tech is good.
I've been going hive tech alot quicker than before, as I realized it's very hard to win the mid game t2 ag Toss/Terran nowadays, especially Toss. I've adopted the T2 goal of surviving till I hit T3, and practise all the good habits of scouting/denyingexpansions/expanding/spreadcreep etc. That should give me better games overall!


Grab the replay here!
~~~~~

That's all folks! Thanks for reading, the next post may or may not be next week, depending if I have time. I'm also currently working on another project for the site, so may be busy.

Once again, come support me on my stream when I do stream, I really appreciate it ! Thanks bye!
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Replies to Blog: Learning from the Masters (1)
New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 6:51 AM BnetId: EU.Nemo #368  Race: Location: Paris, France  Total Posts: 752  # 1
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Excellent blog, very well wrote Crazerk ! All your skill will be back soon if you continue that way.
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 7:47 AM BnetId: Dox.792  Race: Location: Brisbane  Total Posts: 2,980  # 2
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Just with regards to the ZvZ Nydus - I've had this happen very often on Shakuras against Master/GM players. I lost a game at the WCG qualifiers in Brisbane to the same thing.
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 10:46 AM BnetId: Uglymutt.161  Race: Clan: ToR  Location: Perth, Australia  Total Posts: 87  # 3
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Nice write-up I saw your games last night, it seems like you're improving heaps. Gl with the rest of your games.
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 12:20 PM BnetId: NextRim.158  Race: Clan: Team MN8  Location: Russia  Total Posts: 560  # 4
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Tal'darim is so op for zerg, I rarely win on TA in PvZ. Don't attack, just get an infestor ball, and expand all over the map to 12 gases to spam muta or something, nothing toss can do to stop you.

Hydra is bad in PvZ, as you can see in Dimaga's and PiG's games (haven't followed Idra) at recent IEM. 100% roach ball with corruptors, or roach infestor, or ling infestor are much more annoying. I feel it's ez mode to roll over hydra these days. Also, you don't seem to use banes at all, they are stupidly effective unless toss goes blink stalkers. And even if he does, you've only spent 225 gas on nest + upgrade, which you can later use for bane drops.

Game 2 toss was bad, at 11 mins I can hit with mothership and carrier. That's where hydra just doesn't cut it
___________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by souljah
Upgrade : Give roaches invulnerability to nukes, as their namesake on Earth have.
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 1:22 PM BnetId: TheGrayZerg.292  Race: Location: Singapore  Total Posts: 0  # 5
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

@next_rim
actually, something I realised abt PvZ is this - unit composition is relatively irrelevant

Wait what? Yes, irrelevant. Why I say this is because if we discuss unit comps, we can go on all day. Roach corruptor? Immortal stalker crushes it. Ling infestor! Mass lots+ archon, etc etc. Every unit comp has an equal counter (supposedly, otherwise the game is imbalanced)

You've identified the correct issue - P needs to deny Z mass expanding, which can be achieved w Warp Prism play (I'm seeing this alot lately), DT warp-ins (4 DTs easily breaks the standard 1spore 2spine expo defence every decent Zerg has)

My understanding of the current metagame is this - whoever multitasks better will win, given how everyone is pretty clear of unit comp counters. (of course I'm avoiding lengthy discussions including micro, etc)

And u mean game 3?

@uglymutt & nemo - thanks for the kind words! Appreciate your support

@Dox - meh never knew it was used above plat league haha. Gotta consciously be aware that may come from 1 base from now!

Regarding Infestors
Do they still work postpatch? I recall a game where I went ling/Infestors, and even with 3 successive Fungals on a deathball, reinforced w 2/2 lings, much of his army was still alive after clearing mine. Fungal doesn't seem to be v effective now!
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 3:43 PM BnetId: NextRim.158  Race: Clan: Team MN8  Location: Russia  Total Posts: 560  # 6
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Quote:
actually, something I realised abt PvZ is this - unit composition is relatively irrelevant
It is very releveant for two reasons - protoss can't switch fast, and hydra is countered by every tech tree protoss has. So, to counter mass roach, you need immortals, to counter infestors - HT, to counter muta - blink stalkers or stargate. That's three very distinct paths that each require a lot of gas investment. Zerg 3rd comes faster = 6 early gases = easy support for 2-3 tech paths, while protoss can not support such diversity, or switch in due time, when tech path is already chosen. If zerg has roach-ling, corruptors and infestors (only gas-heavy unit), protoss needs immortals and HT, which is very hard gas-wise even on 3 bases. And colossi just don't cut it, if you make more than 3-4, it's free kills for zerg's relatively cheap corruptors, that can turn into scary broods later.

What I've seen recently in IEM in Pig and to some extend Dimaga is get hydra no matter what, and try to overpower the protoss with "econ waves". But hydra, again, is countered by any tech three, be it colossus, HT or carrier, so I see 0 reasons to get them. Yes, hydra is very good at killing VR's, but you only need so many to repel harass, If you are facing heavy stargate, you should've scouted it and gotten a spire in the first place. Also,

I've also noticed lack of corruptors, like in Hasu vs (Chinese zerg, w/e his name is). Zerg saw 7 (!) colossi, and still kept pumping hydra. And he had greater spire too! Why not make over 9000 corruptors, clear colossi, then add broodlords and THEN hydra to deal with blink stalkers ONLY? Seems like zergs just don't have a switch installed in their minds, and if "ALLHATCHBUTTON-S-H" combo is pressed at least once, it can't be stopped.

Sure, I have little understanding of zerg econ, maybe, hydra is the only thing yall can afford at 9:30-11:30, but from the protoss side, I go "phew, ez win" every time I see more than 7 hydra being made. I mean, I myself play cookie-cutter carriers, that are well-rounded against everything, but I mostly rely on zerg greed to give me hassle-free 13 mins early game. What use is hydra even off 12 gases, if I can a-move 600/200 of it with 170 limit of carriers, without losing a single one?

Quote:
Do they still work postpatch?
You bet, Infestors are still very good postpatch.

To sum up my chaotic rambling, imho, ZvP for zerg is like PvT for terran. You need to make protoss go a certain tech, then switch. Protoss can't do the same due to zerg being much more flexible and having stronger gas econ early game. And cookie-cutter unit for such purpose is infestor, because it can deal with pretty much everything in reasonable numbers, NOT hydra, as many seem to think.
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Originally Posted by souljah
Upgrade : Give roaches invulnerability to nukes, as their namesake on Earth have.
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New Tue, 4th-Oct-2011, 4:16 PM BnetId: TheGrayZerg.292  Race: Location: Singapore  Total Posts: 0  # 7
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

A pretty versatile Protoss army I've seen (and seems to the trend, at least for my opponents and for people I'm talking to (just some Master league players, not like GMs or anything) is a Stalker heavy (with blink) Gateway-centric army.

They can just adjust their army according to what they see (either after their first timing push or after Observer scouting) by throwing in 10 more chargelots (rape hydra/ling) or high templar or archon etc. And against mass Roaches, Blink stalkers do pretty well too, and if they have sentries in their mix they'll obliterate(?) your roach army.
(Of course I'm not discussing specifics like how abt burrow (then get an obs) etc)

The reason why zergs get Hydras is for the DPS. Roach are robust but their DPS isn't very good. I mean sure, I've seen games where Zergs dominate their P opponents with a mass Roach timing attack , but there are other precipitating factors such as Zerg just being able to Drone up freely without pressure, etc.

But what's crucial seems to be LINGS. We are starting to see how strong they are when upgraded (a month ago was the start of when players started getting +1 attack early for T or P) and Stephano's unique style of lings only somehow works with upgrades.

Regardless:
Quote:
You need to make protoss go a certain tech, then switch.
This was especially true in my Game 3, if you read the description. I hit with mass hydras, he had alot of zealots, then my next wave of units was roaches, so my roaches had an easier time ag his Zealots. But being able to quickly reproduce this next wave was because I had a decent economy (1 base up on him), so it still falls back on the fundamental points that I've mentioned.

What makes me have a hard time now is Warp Prism play , just have to learn to handle that better somehow. I rem a particular game I had where I was busy with the Protoss hitting two of my bases , and suddenly realized I couldn't make lings - he had warped in 7 DTs in my main which killed my Pool withotu me even realizing.
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New Wed, 5th-Oct-2011, 12:33 PM BnetId: ToRWelshy.946  Race: Clan: ToR  Location: Victoria, Australia  Total Posts: 158  # 8
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Sick write up man, loved it when you asked him to not FFE, "he lied." xD
Enjoyed reading this
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New Wed, 5th-Oct-2011, 2:05 PM BnetId: Fullstop.283  Race: Clan: sR  Location: Hong Kong  Total Posts: 358  # 9
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Great read, very nice visuals

How do you scout for proxied stuff...? If the tech building is not scouted it's so hard for me to react to things, unless I prepare for everything which is extremely inefficient. What's the telltale signs for DTs, Stargates, stuff like that?
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New Wed, 5th-Oct-2011, 5:48 PM BnetId: TheGrayZerg.292  Race: Location: Singapore  Total Posts: 0  # 10
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

@Fullstop - There's this ide aof 'safety spores' -When in doubt, always just get 1 spore at each base at about 6 minutes (this timing varies depending on the Protoss opening - will be slightly later if it's a FFE I believe). The early evo chamber can be used for upgrades, etc.

The SEA GM altShortizz even gets safety spores against Terran!
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New Thu, 6th-Oct-2011, 8:08 AM BnetId: aLtShortizz.576  Race: Location: Singapore  Total Posts: 322  # 11
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Re: Learning from the Masters (1)

Evo chamber before 40 supply have saved me many many times. Also, i like to have 2 Evo chamber sometimes just so i can have better upgrades against taht mid game push.Its been working well for me so far, especially against protoss who stop upgrading after +2 attack and terrans who doesnt bother to get an armoury!
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