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Evolution of the Metagame
 

Just made this video about the evolution of the ZvP metagame and why it makes me excited for the future of SC2 as a skilled based game. Thanks for checking it out ladies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVP7PjVNYAg

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

I kinda wish you talked about the whole spanishiwa fast third/no gas. It was pretty exciting watching zergs turn their heads watching spanishiwa hold certain pushes with spines, queens and slowlings.

Then the protoss innovation of the 4 gate +1 zealot timings on thirds and whatnot.

ZvP is pretty cool sometimes. When I'm not being owned by BL/Infestor :P

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Really cool vid, enjoyed it

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Is there any point in the meta-game, whether it's based on length of time or amount of success, that you need to call on game balance to remove stagnation?

For the sake of argument, let's say that Immortal/Sentry is perfected to it's most efficient form. Protoss is destroying everyone repeatedly. Is there some length of time for meta-game adjustment before you consider a build too powerful?

What if it's just PartinG that goes on a X-month rampage and is generally undefeated? Is the results of one player, the best player, enough to call for change?

Is there a definitive line that can be crossed when people can legitimately call for balance changes?

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

This is an interesting thing to think about.

Honestly if it was me then I would leave it for at LEAST a one year+. We've seen so far that things generally stick around for a couple of months, at least for ZvP. Once more complex scenarios get figured out then each metagame shift takes longer and longer.

I think if it's just PartinG smashing everyone and no one else can succeed with Sentry Immo then nothing should be done about it, ever. Would be reaaaaaaally silly to nerf the game into the ground based on one player being more skilled than the rest.

As for the definitive line... Nah I don't think there should be a definitive line. I don't really know how to answer this but in my perfect world people would respect player skill/effort/dedication instead of the perceived balance of the game. Personally just reading balance whine, especially when a player wins a major game is disgusting and extremely disrespectful to the player who wins. I believe it was Sniper vs Ryung where Sniper won and people were just calling him a patch Zerg etc, whining about balance rather than celebrating his victory. Sniper was fairly unknown then because he hadn't had any massive tournament results but within Korea and smaller tournaments was known as one of the best Zergs, on Life/Leenock level and is known for practicing more than anyone else in the MVP house.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

On the topic of Parting smashing everyone with Immortal Sentry, I agree with Fenner.

For there to be a legitimate case for immortal/sentry to be completely unbeatable, you need to have Parting do an immortal/sentry all-in of the exact same standard against a Zerg of equal skill who is trying different avenues of beating immortal/sentry, but doing each of those responses at perfect execution. Keep in mind that most of those counters will not be the correct response, but how are you to gauge if they are the correct response if the Zerg's level of overall skill does not equal the overall level of skill Parting has?

THEN what about if the immortal/sentry being easier to execute than the response? So even if the Zerg's skill is equal to that of Parting, none of the responses will necessarily work because the Zerg requires a higher level of skill in order to perfectly execute the counter to the Immortal/Sentry all in.

This can go on forever! Just wait for HotS.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

sentry immortal is unbeatable the end

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

@Sunder

You make a good point on "level of difficulty".

My personal opinion is that I do not feel the game is "imbalanced" if one race or strategy is "easier" than another to do. In different meta-games we have seen previously, noteably PvT was much easier than TvP during the rise of Parting, and ZvP was easier than PvZ during the rise of Stephano.

A race/strategy being easy does not mean it is imbalanced, trust me when I say I wish I could micro some protoss units like what a Terran can do with theirs.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

sentry immortal has been unbeatable since its invention. I can guarantee you no one will figure out a counter during WoL.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

I've figured out a counter and written a guide on it......

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

nope.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

I'd link you but you'd say its gimmicky and doesn't work. But it does.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

at your level, I'm sure it does

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

oh you....

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Just because parting did it to 1 person doesnt mean it is unbeatable or the strongest thing or new meta game, you talk about meta game is just 1 build someone does over and over , yeah parting might do 2 base all ins often but he doesnt just use it he gets 3 bases and macros stargates etc, 2 base all in can be beaten by anyone, just because sniper lost doesnt mean oh dear new meta, oh dear zerg cant beat it, If parting goes to every top zerg now in every tournament and just 3-0s 4-0s or w.e with 2 base every game yeah it might be imbalanced, you can allways win against brood infestor its just you put a bit more effort into it and dont 1 a you harass early ive been going 3 - 4 base against zerg atm and winning 90% of my games, all it is, is practice against broods infestor, 2 base imortal all beatable

Just my opinion lol

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

You know this is gonna give you insults why you said it? You like getting attention or something..?

Sure you can disagree with something but no need to say it in a way you did. "This is dumb in many ways"?

Stop trying so hard

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Theres the 1st !

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

******* retard -_-

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Really nice video Fenner! I agree 100% with every point, and the metagame WILL evolve.... Once blizzard nerfs ****ing imba immortal/sentry.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Just relax jaz, not worth the effort.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Sniper failed to hold it with the current standard of Zerg play which is just massing Roach Ling off 3 base and crushing any 2 base allin. He didn't make any mistakes with his macro/army positioning etc. So this way or metagame of holding 2 base allins is no longer viable. Even if only a small change is needed then it's still a change.

Either way assuming Sniper did make mistakes; The idea of the video is that there are still new strategies and styles coming out or being refined better so that they are stronger, meaning that the game still has player skill growth potential and the need for nerfs/buffs and whine about certain units isn't really needed.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Frustration did you even read the thread? The topic of PartinG and the immortal/sentry build was part of a hypothetical situation I put forth to promote discussion. I wasn't suggesting anything else.

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

its funny how that retard edits what he wrote to look less worse lol

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Fair point But at this stage of the game there wont be much more change untill new units its basicly finished to beat imortal sentry you would either base race with roach ling or just defend with more spines / roach ling.
It wont change :/

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

wasnt talking to you ?

Re: Evolution of the Metagame
 

Ok does it satisfy you now it has nothing but my own opinion in it