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RE: Double Elimination
 

So there was a lot of recent discussion about how Bo3 is usually underwhelming for the spectators since the Upper Bracket champion tends to just stomp the Lower Bracket champion 2-0 and it's all over.

I just wanted to highlight 3 events in less than a month where it's been quite the opposite:

ASUS / Gamespot AU Pro-Am
tgun lost 0-2 to TargA in the Upper Bracket Finals. He then proceeded to defeat mOOnGLaDe 2-1 in the Lower Bracket finals, and then took a 2-0 and 2-1 against TargA in the Grand Final. One of the most epic comebacks we've ever seen.



Gigabyte eSports Winter Slam
mOOnGLaDe lost to Mafia 1-2 in the 2nd round. He dropped down to the lower bracket, where he had to battle through Fourby (2-0), deth (2-0), iaguz (2-0), Mafia (2-0) and tgun (2-1) in order to reach the grand finals against TargA. He managed to take down TargA 2-1 in the first best of 3, and narrowly lost 1-2 in the second series.



ACL Melbourne
PiG lost to Light 0-2 in the Upper Bracket. Light went on to face Mafia in the UB finals, before being matched against PiG again the Lower Bracket Finals. PiG defeated Light 2-0. At this point in the tournament, Mafia hadn't lost a single series to anyone - even in the group stages. PiG came back to defeat Mafia 2-1 and 2-1, rewriting the definition of underdog.



Now I'm not writing this to argue that Double Elimination is definitively the best and fairest format for both players and spectators, but it's events like these that clearly demonstrate that when you have an event full of players with very similar skill levels, it can create one of the most exciting scenarios ever.

Re: Double Elimination
 

I'm glad you did this. I was going to do it, but.. hey. You made the effort so I don't!

Also, I've always argued for double elim as it's better

Re: Double Elimination
 

Well said!
What do you think about the Double Group stages like HSC? Would take longer tho, just wanna hear some opinions on it

Re: Double Elimination
 

tbh i like double elimination but it really sucks that there is to be two bo3 at the end, why should a player be rewarded for losing and dropping to the lower bracket and be given two chances to beat the guy in the winners bracket. I do understand there are advantages to this style one being that someone can't just cheese two games and take a tournament but I think people should be able to think up another format for tournament that don't require 2 bo3s in the end and thats i more balanced in that players who lose aren't instantly out of the tournament

Re: Double Elimination
 

The player who drops to the losers bracket isn't rewarded at all. If Upper bracket winner wins the first set there is no 2nd set.

Re: Double Elimination
 

He did drop a game to someone else(!) though

Re: Double Elimination
 

mafia 2-1 2-1ed me in the 2nd tokyo qualifier too after losing r1 to satuspr

Re: Double Elimination
 

Yeah, that tgun bloke!

Re: Double Elimination
 

My bad didn't know that but I still think there could be other formats created that allow people to not be instantly eliminated when they lose but still give an advantage to lose who are winning games

Re: Double Elimination
 

I just wish there was a second stream though. During this melb comp, the stream was always showing games different to the ones in lower bracket that I really wanted to see. I know, off topic. I know, you'll put a second one up if it ever becomes feasible.

Re: Double Elimination
 

#1 TvZ AUS

Re: Double Elimination
 

Double elimination means exactly what it says, you have to be eliminated twice. When you get to the finals, the loser bracket player has already lost once, therefore Upper bracket player needs to win one series in order to get loser bracket player to 2 losses. However, the upper bracket player hasn't lost, so loser bracket player needs to win 2 series in order to knock the upper bracket player out.

Re: Double Elimination
 

Double elimination I think is the fairest it gives people who had a bad set of games the chance to redeem themselves; I was never of the opinion that the upper bracket always wins. I always generally tend to see a good fight between the two.

Re: Double Elimination
 

I like double elim, I mean if the finals ends in a quick 2-0 in favor of the WB finalist then he deserved to win imho. It can make an underwhelming finals but a 4-0 in a single elim tournament is just as boring (GSL sup?) if not moreso. I think there needs to me more variety, it seems every tournament on SEA is double elim nowadays and that does make things...stale? I guess...

There needs to be a mix of both in my opinion. Double elim does give the more "accurate" top 3 (prizes and etc) but I think groupstage into single elim needs more of a go (in our region specifically).

Re: Double Elimination
 

Do you guys think the number of participants in a double elimination bracket makes a difference in the quality of the finals? Ie 8 instead of 16

Re: Double Elimination
 

Single vs Doube Elimination
There are benefits to single elimination, I think it can, and should be used when the time calls for it:

• when you have a massive bracket
• where the player skill range is really wide (a couple pros, a couple noobs, and spread of skill between)
• when you tight on time/need to follow a strict schedule

That being said, the big problem with single elimination is seeding (particularly in SEA). Proper seeding based off skill level is used to ensure the best players make it deep into the tournament before they start knocking out the other best players. However, the skill level in SEA is pretty darn close at the top level. The fact our overall player pool really isn't that big, means you don't have the masses of lower tier players to bulk out a single elimination bracket to a level where the top tier players are far enough away from each other. Similarly, we really don't have a plethora of events for our pros to choose from - everyone is attending everything so the top skilled players are always condensed rather than diluted between multiple events.

I feel double elimination is nearly always going to be the common format in SEA. It's fair on our players, and when you don't have a huge player base or a large number of big money events, you really have to make sure the top players are both happy and all given a fair chance.

The bigger picture
The arguement will come up that Single Elimination is better for the viewers, and some people will argue that viewers are all that matter. Whilst for the most part this is sadly true (stuff isn't free & it's all pointless if no one cares), it's really difficult to gauge that when you look at SEA. It's no secret that our local viewership isn't thriving, and the scene is fairly closed off. Most international viewers would probably have trouble naming more than a handful of SEA pros. If those players got knocked out of single elim early, you just lost a lot of interest from those international viewers. Yes, if one of the big names got scalped early by a lower tier player, you bet that player will get a lot of love & cheering from the SEA community. If the aim is to grow however, I'm not sure that's enough to warrant single elimination over double on a regular basis.

This all leads on to a bigger problem in general (exposure), and that is a much bigger problem to tackle.

ps. Just my opinion of course - it doesn't mean I'm right!

Re: Double Elimination
 

I like double elimination better, gives the players a chance to redeem themselves if they just have a bad game when they aren't warmed up properly yet.

Re: Double Elimination
 

Can't you just do double elim but have a single series bo3? thats what we used to do in cs all the time, worked well. Or double elim bo3 into bo5 grand finals if you want. Whilst I wouldnt use single elim in something like ACL, for other big events such as GESC it wouldn't be that bad to use single elim or groups into groups into single elim ala dreamhack. It's nice to mix up for the format every now and then to keep things fresh!

Re: Double Elimination
 

the way i look at it, single elim is best if you're only giving out a first prize, double elim you can justify giving a prize for 2nd (can get away with giving out a prize for 3rd/4th without people complaining usually)

Re: Double Elimination
 

I think that given that echelon of players who are just seperated from the rest of us who like to compete in the occasional tournament warrants some investigation into the swisse format as opposed to single elimination for larger tournaments. I think it works well from a player perspective as you can still have good games right up until the end of the tournament, even if you are performing badly (ie. with a wide skill spread its not uncommon in the last round to have two bronze players playing each other and having tight matches), and from the spectator perspective, the quality of play should improve with each round significantly (if my estimates are correct, at around the same rate as a single elim bracket). What's even better? It doesn't force players to wait around for a long time between their last winners bracket match for the loser's bracket to catch up (Which I do think, in some cases, can significantly affect the performance of both players).

Re: Double Elimination
 

Australian Go Association (board game like chess only insanely more complicated and yet simpler) used swisse round robin
Its a very good format when you either have not too many players or a fair amount of time.
The problem with swisse is that its a bitch to manage and alot more down time between rounds
It may be possible with smaller brackets at lans

Re: Double Elimination
 

This is perfect

Re: Double Elimination
 

I love double elim as a spectator - I think that not only is it fun for me to watch, it's better for growth. I mean, in the SC2 scene you have emerging stars. People have their favourite players and their hopes to win. They want to see not just a bunch of games, but games of their favourite players. Double elim is a way to give them this opportunity. And I really love it as a spectator.

The only problem with the formats above is the final. I don't like the WB champ having a 2nd chance. Going into a championship game where one player has a big advantage over the other just isn't exciting. I think this advantage is just too big, and I don't feel that you necessarily remove all advantage from the WB champ by simply removing this. WB champs already the psychological advantage of being undefeated through the tournament, and has had to endure one less match. I think this is enough, and you don't need to tilt things further in favour of one player over the other, which is essentially what that 2nd chance game does. I want a double elim format where the winner of the winner's bracket takes on the winner of the loser's bracket in a single grand championship match. They leave the brackets behind and show down for glory. You can extend the length of the series to Bo5 or Bo7 if it's about maximising games.

Re: Double Elimination
 

agreed, uhf = boss

Re: Double Elimination
 

I have always preferred Double Elim, both as a player and a spectator.

I always cringe when I see 2 tops players getting bracket fcked in the round of 16 in a major tourney.

A potential solution to the spectator issues could be to make the final a bo5 with the Upper Bracket champ starting with a one map head start

Re: Double Elimination
 

i think single elim is good for qualifiers and double elim is the best in lans.