[Synboi]

Hi there guys,

I'm a Zerg player and I've had a problem with a particularly pesky friend, who while not great with his army composition tends to annoy me and my hatches with tons of banshee and drop play. I can fend it off but he keeps doing a ton of damage and eventually whittles me down. I try muta/hydra plays but the bugger tends to stick up loads of turrets or runs his banshees away before I do any significant damage, and I'm having a hard time countering it.

So what I'm asking from you fine gentlemen is some help crushing him into finely ground Terran dust. I've uploaded and put the the replays of some of our games here. So give it a download and send me some tips via PM or here (he may be watching <.< >.>).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VX4EOLNK

Any advice to improve my build management (yeh my hotkeys and army management wasn't great I was panicking), composition, micro, timings and anything to help me effectively make him look like a class A noob would be greatly appreciated, as his banshee harass has gone on long enough!

Any really good advice I'll spend a week practising like crazy and I'll upload replays of our match next weekend of my horrible defeat or my glorious retribution.

P.S. I'm a bronzer so no throwing stones, verbal lashings will suffice.

Regards,
Synboi, the bronzer with a dream.

Quick Comments

pXAero:

Bronzer with a dream. Would make a mad signature bro :)

[sRFullstop]

Hi, Gold player here.

If you scout the Starport, put down one or two spores at every base, protecting your mineral line and your tech. It won't matter if they have Cloak anymore because of the spores' detection, and Queens and spores with a bit of micro will fend off the banshees. Hydras are bad in ZvT so don't even get them, it's better to defend with spores and queens until you get mutas out. If he puts down a lot of turrets and you know it, just make about 8 mutas to fend off banshees and things, and gain map control with them.

I didn't watch the replay yet (but I will try to analyze more after watching it), but if he spends a lot on Banshees and tech-based builds he won't have much of an army early game, and you can use ling/bling/muta (more heavy on the muta if he has a lot of banshees). Infestors also work because they can fungal marine drops and kill medivacs. To counter drops just spread overlords in open air space (so they don't get sniped), so you can spot them. Remember to look at your minimap.

I don't know transition out of banshees, so if he goes mech you can go Roach Brood lord, but just be wary of Vikings as if he has a Starport he can easily start producing them. corrupters or infestors deal with vikings well.

[matthras]

If anyone has a bit of extra time to read through the same thread on TL as to not repeat what other people have said: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=266316

Please check your replays though before uploading them. The first one was only 7 seconds long only because you were the wrong race. I've only watched all the 'New' ones mainly because the games are very long. Also, DQ is a rather unfavoured Zerg map.

I'm going to keep my points relatively simple, because as a Bronze you obviously need to work on your foundations (you're aware of that, at least).

1. Learn an opening build order. 14/14, 15 Hatch, whatever. Pick one, practise defending against any early-game shenanigans your opponent can throw at you.
2. Have a game plan of what unit composition you want to use. Muta/Ling/Bling is a solid standard that you should emulate before branching out. Do it over and over again and you'll get an idea of the weaknesses and strengths of the unit composition.
3. If you don't know, or can't guess what your opponent is doing, try and scout. You can make it a habit to get Overlord Speed immediately after Lair to make that job a little easier.

Some Zerg specific tips:

- If a Terran turtles. Expand.
- If you're banking a lot of minerals, expand (you're already aware of the macro Hatch, just need to put a Queen to it).
- Spread the overlords for scouting. I can't stress how stupidly important this is in dealing with drops and Banshees. The game on Metalopolis is a prime example - if you had Overlords hovering over the edge between yours and your opponent's bases, then you would have spotted the Banshees and the drops earlier.
- Ideally you want 3 saturated bases. Find points in between when you can make drones.
- Zerglings are cheap. Use them for scouting expansions and keeping control of the Xel'Naga Towers!

Specific Tips Regarding Your Opponent:

- He likes to proxy his first barracks. This means when you drone scout in the early game you should be looking for a Supply Depot AND a Barracks. If you don't, then obviously the Barracks is a proxy.
- Cloaked Banshees in mid/late game. If you know he's going to keep doing it, then put 1-2 Spores at every expansion. You will already have Mutas out to deal with it anyway.

I've deliberately left a few extra things out mainly because you would be taking on too much at once if I said all of them. Keep it simple, boil it down to a basic build order, unit composition, and rules (i.e. normalising the variables) then hopefully you'll be able to understand the game better.

For the record, I'm in Diamond.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Well explained

[Muldeh]

If he proxys his barracks you can just 10 pool and win because he has no wall. GG.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by matthras

- Cloaked Banshees in mid/late game. If you know he's going to keep doing it, then put 1-2 Spores at every expansion. You will already have Mutas out to deal with it anyway.

One spore and 1-2 spines in each mineral line means you are so safe against banshees and drops.

Also spread your overlords around the map to spot for them on the way, and also spread your creep for map vision (making an extra queen very early is a good way to get extra creep tumors, and 2 queens kill a banshee, one queen dies to a banshee )

[Synboi]

Yeh sorry only noticed that directly after I uploaded them :/. I thought I'd ask the SEA community as well since it's more relevant as we both play SEA.

I've tried a bit of muta ling and that seems to go down quite well, but I'm a tad scared of the eventual Thors they start to mass produce but it seems to be a better strat than my previous roach hydra. Also in regards to using queens as your main anti air against banshees should I be aiming for around 2 per base to prevent 1 port banshee? For 2 port should I be looking for more than this or will that suffice as well?

[matthras]

I suppose in Bronze League you'll see a bit of everything, But very honestly, TvZ basically revolves around two 'general' unit compositions: Marine/Tank or Mech (Hellion/Tank/Thors). If you're going to let them mass Thors, then it means they're letting you expand and macro like crazy.

As for Banshees, given that you've practised your 14/14 or 15 Hatch, you should already have at least two Queens out (some make a 3rd for spreading creep) which easily deals with 1 Port Banshee.

If it's 2 Port Banshee, then you'll definitely need Spore Crawlers and additional Queens. You already know that a Queen can't beat a Banshee in a 1v1 fight. That said, 2 Port Banshee (or even just massing Banshees) is easily scoutable: either they take two gases extremely early, OR they're sitting on one base for too long (this requires some guesswork dependent on scouting information).

I can't place enough emphasis on how important scouting, game sense and practising is. Once you get a solid build order and a solid mid-game plan/unit composition from there, you'll be able to branch out and think about how to defend what your opponent can throw at you. I'd advise on practising those first and getting more game experience, because right now it's a lot of information to remember (which is why I've deliberately avoided saying too much).

[Synboi]

Hi guys!

:S Forgot to post my results of yesterday's and today's matches so I thought I'd get it up toot sweet, anyway overall it went ok I lost 3 matches and won 2 (Game 1 = Ling/Muta, Game 2/3 = 7 pool rush, Game 4/5 = Ling/Bane/Muta, I lost games 1-3 and won 4-5). He has definitely gotten a lot better and with your help I feel I have progressed a bit as well so thanks a bunch . I've stuck my comments in TL into the two edited partial posts after this and any comments on my replays would do a world of good, thanks a bunch guys .

Saturday:

Thanks for your advice guys, played 3 out of my 5 games against him so far....... got owned hard in every single game. The first one was a straight up macro game which he just out microed and macroed me and along with my bad rally points and bad tech upgrades I lost pretty hard. I realised I had no chance mid/late game and tried some 7 pool rushes which all failed terribly due to bad scouting and the general shittiness of my micro and unit management. Still its a shame I got owned so hard even with all your help and my practice .

I've still got 2 more games tomorrow which should be fun and I'll try my hardest to at least get a win instead of going 5-0, but who knows he's been playing a lot lately and he is pretty awesome compared to me.

Anyway I'll try my best (try some more macro games I suppose) and I'll report back tomorrow. If any of you could give me some tips about how I could overall improve my cheese/macro games it would be greatly appreciated I feel my worst part is unit management and drone efficiency as I end up with loads all stuck in a few bases rather than spread out among my different bases.

Currently played games (1-3 out of 5):
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OBUETO2J

Edit: Oh btw in the second/third game I didn't GG in game but did so out of game in chat, so I wasn't BM him at all XD even though I did tell him stuff off in in game chat when he was trying to give me horrible tips to make him win.
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Sunday:

Well it was a little better today I ended up winning both of the last games as I added some banes into my muta/ling build. It really helped deal with his mass marine/thors and I was able to scrape through the two wins.

I am really liking the flexibility of the muta/ling/bane combo and how much drastically easier it is to shut down his expansions (which was what won me the game). However my macro still seems to be failing and I miss larva injects and end up having to make tons of macro hatches. Is there any sort of good routine I should get into to help check this and quickly get it done. I've seen some of the guys bind all queens to a control group and then press v and shift and backspace to inject at each hatch. Is there any other faster way of doing it without cheating. As a result I was floating mega amounts of minerals and gas (like 10k minerals and 4k gas).

Anyway here are the replays of our last two games:

Last set (Games 4-5):
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AV04NZDS

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I really enjoyed doing this and I'm hoping this will become a weekly thing between me and him and any kind of input and help you can give me towards improving my play would be greatly appreciated as you guys have given me some amazing gems.

So thanks again guys !

Regards,
Synboi

[oo0zula0oo]

As a zerg player I believe it is very very important to keep scouting! Now I know that the terran will try all he can to deflect your overlords and lings from getting any information but that also helps with telling you what he is doing. I like to get my upgrades early and for that reason I will get an evo chamber very early this can also prove useful if ur overlords scouts banshees this might just mean u scouted them on route to you base due to lack of scouting info. But that gives you time to prepare if you see 2 banshees then make 2 more queens in your hatcheries because you always have to think about losing atleast 1 queen!
making maybe a spore in each base should be sufficient unless you see more on the way. When you've deflected the first wave its on you to realize the position your in. If you've lost a lot then you need to either counter with an all in or try to get back in to the game but if you didn't lose so much then you can either start teching or drone up hard.
Usually in these instances if you've stopped the banshee harass then they might all in you so i suggest putting down a cautionary bane nest and keep lings around to scout for the rine hellion banshee push which will inevitably be coming!
If not then the bane nest will prove useful for the rine tank push!
Now your in the dark so you need to scout some more because you don't know what he will transition to or if he is still massing banshees!
Getting a spire will help deter the banshees but i suggest only getting a hand full of them as there will be many marines out! but be very vigilant with them move them around scout expos pick off stray units and stray buildings and most importantly keep him in his base!!!
when the mutas are out i suggest getting a third and an infestation pit for the fungals and to get to tier 3.
Now all this might be difficult but I feel that if you can control your mutas without losing many of them it will help with your overall play. mutas are very annoying they can deal a lot of damage but are very fragile and require you to keep a close eye on them so you might be very scared to send them into the enemy base!
But remember always macro always build drones! even if you need to build an army add in 2-3 drones in one round and 1 overlord will make sure your macro is still up there and you wont supply block yourself!

Now another very important thing that will really help you is choosing your battles!
Against a terran who goes mass rine and tank you cannot engage when the tanks are in siege so I suggest attacking the army while its moving out and before it sets itself up! it can also catch people off guard if they move commanded their army!

If you need some help I can be a practice partner if you want I like to help people and have helped many of my friends reach a higher level of play!

I myself am a zerg player so i know how you feel but I can play other races so a certain level and can help you if you want! just let me know~

Anyways I wish you good luck with all your matches and hope this helped you improve even a little~

[matthras]

Was unable to open the replay of Game 1. Skipped Games 2 and 3 because a 7 pool rush puts you behind anyway if it fails. Watched G4 and G5.

- Great, you know the first few steps of a build order. Now go further. When do you want to get Lair? When do you want to get your Baneling nest? When will you need your second gas?
You can get to the point where you can use Ling/Bling/Muta. Awesome. What's next? Do you want to win the game or do you want to get T3?

- A good rule of thumb is to throw down a production structure/building as soon as you have the resources for it (the only exception is when you know you're saving resources for something - you'll see Destiny bank a lot of gas for Infestors, and the same goes for people who prefer Mutas). You should instinctively know how much every building and every unit cost.

- Larva Injects: Set yourself a goal for future games e.g. 'By 20 minutes I want all of my queens to have 50 or less energy'.
When I used to harass with Mutas, every time I retreat I would go and inject all my Hatcheries. Find some triggers like that, that work for you.
You'll find that there are moments where you can quickly go back and inject all your Hatcheries. For example in Game 4, you wasted a lot of time running Lings near his expo just to deny the Command Center landing. Retreating your Lings and injecting your Hatcheries would've given you a better advantage.

With the backspace 'trick', what you do is:
1. Bind all your queens to 1 hotkey
2. Remap Backspace to something closer to your V button (default for larva inject)
3. In-game, hit the hotkey for your queens, center your mouse on your screen, Backspace-V-Click-Backspace-V-Click. The only problem is that when you have 4th/5th/6th bases where it's normal not to have a Queen at every base, you'll end up having Queens wandering between expansions.

I'm not saying anymore here, because I feel larva injects and not being supply capped are the one thing you need to work on now.

[c_kAelle]

i think mass muta will defeat this build (banshee + drop play) and 24 mutas can 1 shot a turret i think...