[ToRDarKnoob]

Hi guys, recently i've been experimenting with this cool build I saw on ladder, Nexus first in pvp. The main purpose of this build is to surprise the other player and get massively far ahead economically.

Build order:
Chrono probes and make pylon at the ramp, send that probe out to scout opponent's base
Keep chronoing probes until 14-16 probes and make nexus
place forge at the front of ramp ASAP
place gateway right after that (harass with probe possibly feign canon rush)
place 1 gas down and place a canon down as soon as forge finishes
begin chronoing more probes (keep scouting and check base for proxys)
place core strait after gateway completes (placing down an extra canon is fine)
place second gas around 27 supply (chrono core 2-3 times)
place a robo around 29 supply (get a zealot stalker and sentry out of gate)
place 2 gates as warp gate is around 60% (get plus one attack when you feel comfortable)
chrono out an immortal then get an observer to scout (keep building probes with or without chrono)
Add 3-4 more gates in main (depending on what you scout with observer decide tech)

At this point you should have held of their attack and be able to decide your tech after that

Common build people do to counter:
4 gate warp prism
4 gate blink stalker
4 gate rush
1 gate fast expand (if they do this build and you scout it no need to play as safe)

This build is experimental ive only used it a few times

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...exusfirst.png/ image

please comment with questions or improvements

[FSBenAD]

nGGAli did this to me in the GPD Final, about 2 months ago...

Was very effective, especially since he put the first pylon behind his natural mins, so make it look like a proxy gate build, instead of nexus first.

(Which made me so busy trying to find the proxy, that by the time I realised what he was doing, his cannon had started and I had built ready to counter a proxy 2 gate instead!)

Quick Comments

x5.Phoenix:

Was about to say Ali loves this build! AKA mGGAlpha

[ToRVenom]

i dont know i feel as tho this would be weak to some blink play ....

Edit: SOrry just ntoiced u mentioned it

[mGGAequitas]

it works sometimes when as you said your opponent misreads it and thinks some cheese is coming.

But if they realise what you are doing and react properly you will die every time.

[Shieldz]

theres a reason why gsl players dont use it a warp prism 4 gate if its a good one it will come before ur warp gate is done

[Zealo]

or blink obs kills it on a map like shakuras

[Malice]

A good reaction to a fast expand build with cannons is to just fast expand yourself without cannons. It puts you ahead in tech, and you don't have to spend money on cannons to defend yourself. After all, what's the opponent going to do to you if they have 2-3 cannons at their natural? It's just never worth it to expand with cannons in pvp, you're open to die from so many things, or get behind with regular expansion builds.

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

yep

[eCKo`Tazerenix]

Originally Posted by Malice

A good reaction to a fast expand build with cannons is to just fast expand yourself without cannons. It puts you ahead in tech, and you don't have to spend money on cannons to defend yourself. After all, what's the opponent going to do to you if they have 2-3 cannons at their natural? It's just never worth it to expand with cannons in pvp, you're open to die from so many things, or get behind with regular expansion builds.

Agreed, the economic advantage is negligible compared to the tech advantage imo. You can even get away with taking a 5 minute third on a map like entombed.

I feel like these fast expand builds in pvp really only work because your opponent doesn't scout or doesn't react properly. The direct counter to this build is any sort of blink play and you will never have enough units out to counter it.

[ProAnnn]

4 gate you just die. Dont even need blink or warp prism. Simply because ur warp gate is late and you spent 400 additional minerals on a nexus, even if you made like 3-4 cannons, a good 4 gater with decent micro would be able to snipe the cannons 1 at a time(maximum only 2 cannons can hit the stalkers) till ur cannons all die, then he just push in with superior unit count.

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

you can just make pylons in their main, there is nothing that can kill your probe, so just spam pylons k4g style

[Stallion]

This build should never work im sorry to say lower league people generally try it in a bo3 vs me after thier cheese fails and its very easy to beat. for one think you have no scouting and can die to a well executed blink play or wrap prism 4 gate OR the other person can just double expand or rusg colossus since your tech is behind personally i generally do both and drop harrass people for the lols. sorry to say this isn't a viable strat and i'd save yoru time by not trying it anymore maybe in hots where you can use the mothership core as a defensive cannon too but not atm

[Fairyking]

I want everyone to do this build, will give me 100% win rate in PvP lol this is just bad. Sorry but it is.

[mGGFender]

As others have said, you need to talk to my friend mGGAlpha. He did nexus first pvp on ladder for a fair while coz he was sick of everything else and wanted to experiment. He probably did it a bit differently but still had some levels of success with it. Managed to beat high masters with it, so it can defs work to some degree. Had some problems at the end of the builds life of people blind countering him I think which caused him to stop doing it regularly.

[Shieldz]

No offense high masters yeah bro? LOL maybe the high masters are terrible at this game then i have never even seen a good toss do it unless its calm before the storm and even if they do it it never works theres a reason why no code s does it and theres also when someone have success with it doesnt mean it works might be just the player level.

Quick Comments

	Snx.Mufasa:	quality post
	eCKo`Tazerenix:	Paragraphs make more sense when you use punctuation.
	mGGAequitas:	i read this in one breath

[mGGFender]

Originally Posted by Shieldz

No offense high masters yeah bro?

Why would I lie, it's not my build? Pretty sure it was because they either thought they were getting proxy 2 gate'd or just had no clue what to do as they'd never seen it before.

I agree though with you though. I wouldn't use it as a Toss player as it's way too risky......... I'm just saying it can work, as I've seen him do it to some pretty decent opponents.

[ToRDarKnoob]

i think the only reason it works is people dont know how to counter it

Quick Comments

mGGDrGooSe:

like all new and fun builds ^_^

[Malice]

A strategy that relies on your opponent making mistakes is not a very good strategy. Any player with sound decision making should be able to crush this.

[Theend]

As a protoss player myself, it is important to note on 2 important factor.
1) It relies too heavily on your opponent's assumption.He assume you are going for built "x" and try to go for a "Y" built to counter.This is too luck based.

Originally Posted by DarKnoob

main purpose of this build is to surprise the other player

2) In PVP , unless you can timed your productions like a GuSo ImBA top No.1 . Nexus first is vulnuable to one based well timed well placed attack.(building,unit type,time etc....)
.This render early mineral boost less effective.And again,you pray that your opponent do not take advantage of that. Toooooooooor luck based again.

From: your "A"-move specialist

[Fairyking]

It's so easy to counter though....

[Ripped]

4gate, blink, warprism. All kill you.

[fray`Alpha]

Yes I have used this build alot in both tournaments and ladder ( i used it at acl and got a win with it).
Yes I have beaten many top 8 masters with it. (and one GM)
Yes it is a terrible build that shouldnt work but does..

as ppl are saying it relies more on the opponent making mistakes.
I started doing it cause my PvP was soo low.. that i was getting a ton more wins using this build then i was playing properly. now that Im finally getting better at pvp i use it less cause i dont need to rely on such a coin flip build. but i still mix it in every now and again.

as ppl have said if u can trick the other player into getting a 2nd gate or a forge them selves then ur in a great spot (this usually depends from their scouting timings, the earlier the scout the better).

next important bit is scouting as much as u can.. each response by them needs a different reponse to u.. if ur thinking they are going wp, then u set ur stalkers that u have cronoing out fo ur gateways into ur main and u snipe the wp down asap .. they might land units in but if u can kill the wp before they get 2 rounds of warp ins, even if u loose those units to kill it.. by then u will have warp gate and enough of them to get some units and clean up the left over units.

if its 4 gate cannon up and use zealots and probes and stalkers once u got them making to hold the ramp .. dont let them run by.. they run by u die.

basically yes it is a bad build.. but it works ALOT more then u would think. and most importantly its a funner way to play PvP instead of just 4 gating or colo wars.

[Myth.ZenAku]

My normal reaction to this is just to fast colossusx3, he'll normally get a lot of immortals if he knows its coming but the lack of splash damage makes it really hard to kill the colossus with a lot of zealot backup

[Hijung]

So basically it all depends on mindtricks and your opponents scouting information...

Can you delay nexus for a bit for a gateway (which you subsequently cancel) in order to trick your opponent further? I think, even with my current-silver level theorycrafting this build can work. It all depends on your opponent.

[fray`Alpha]

the cancel wont work cause most probes will stick around scouting the base continuously until they are chases away from a stalker or something..

[Zanderax]

I can see the opening Zealot and Stalker from a 4 gate just running past with a probe and wreaking your main. I can't see your first Zealot out before they get to your front door...

[inFeZa]

4 Gate Warp prism would absolutely smash this.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

... yeeeeeepp.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Zanderax

I can see the opening Zealot and Stalker from a 4 gate just running past with a probe and wreaking your main. I can't see your first Zealot out before they get to your front door...

there should be a cannon up in time to kill the first units from a 4 gate opener,
but you can just keep your scouting probe alive in their base and spam pylons everywhere while you get ur 4 warp gates up (skip the 2 stalkers and zealot for more money for pylons) then just warp in in his face and you win, or if he is pulling all his workers to kill the pylons you just expand yourself and should be ahead since he isn't mining for ages.

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

there should be a cannon up in time to kill the first units from a 4 gate opener,
but you can just keep your scouting probe alive in their base and spam pylons everywhere while you get ur 4 warp gates up (skip the 2 stalkers and zealot for more money for pylons) then just warp in in his face and you win, or if he is pulling all his workers to kill the pylons you just expand yourself and should be ahead since he isn't mining for ages.

even the scouting probe that will get in your main before you can kill it with a stalker will stay alive and build 3-4 pylons instantly and theres nothing you can do about that.

indeed you did say that. haha it's been a long day.

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

ya that's wat i said :)

[stronK]

someone tried to do this to me today, and it didnt work. got blink stalkers

[Fairyking]

If they put down a 2nd gate and just stalker rush you are 100% screwed seen it happen many times and that is why no good players will use this.

[EveMassacrisM]

Rofl i would just dbl expand if i saw a P do this. Economic advantage gone!

[x5_Namakaye]

Yeah any good player would just counter this some how once they get past the WTF!?!??! moment

[QEDjuslai]

this will definitely die to alot of builds

[Shieldz]

lol lets say this it will work against people that dont know whats going on but if people have good game sense then this wouldnt work

[AxSGRiM]

Double expo or just tech faster ez win

[fray`Alpha]

Double expo and u die to a 6 gate

[AxSGRiM]

yeah man thats definitely how coolbeans lost to you

[fray`Alpha]

pretty sure cool beans didnt double expand after it?


and just thought i would let ppl know that I just beat a GM with nex first in Pvp. If I can beat a GM protoss with nexus first. then Im sure it cant be too too hard at diamondish level so for the most ppl go for it. want a fun build go for it