[TABottles]

The SEA Server has a lot of extraordinary players in its ranks but is often underrated by the average fan of StarCraft. I for one do tend to run over to TL to watch Jinro play rather than say Iaguz. As much as I respect the crap out of our Grandmasters I look elsewhere to be entertained or enlightened. It’s a weird feeling for me to realize that I actually do favour watching streams from players like Grubby, Sen and Catz when I actually have little to know knowledge of their play or their background.

It may be curiosity but I’m always sitting here in Australia following the latest trends in North American StarCraft. As to reasons why I do these things I don’t really know. I guess I’m wondering if the players on this server are the best I can watch. Are they below the others in terms of skill – maybe it’s commercialism on a small scale and I’m eating it up.

Here are a few questions because I’m very interested in hearing some opinions:

- How does SEA stack up to the rest of the world?

- As a top SEA player how do you rate yourself to other pros from different servers?



- Do you yourself favour watching streams from servers other than the SEA server? If so why?





EDIT: Just realized none of the players I mentioned were from North America - go figure.

Quick Comments

	deL:	I like minimat's thoughts better
	TAminimat:	me too :p

[Another]

Im by no means a top player of SEA, but i am GM with ~60-65% ratio over over 100 games, and i find that sometimes you can get good games on SEA, other times you get mid masters that arent really worth playing. i get MUCH more stable level of opponents on NA and KR,

We do have some great players, but not a great lot of them. Personally i dont watch streams, but if i do its IdrA with commentary, and thats about it.

[TABottles]

I understand why you watch idrA exclusively

[breadfan]

I wish money were no object - we could send like 15 guys over to MLG and honestly, I think a bunch of guys would really perform well. That would bring instant credibility to SEA. So essentially, we deserve more than we get.

The second question doesn't apply to me.

I do favour watching international streams, but only from top top players. As in, those who win big tournaments + Artosis. I wouldn't choose to watch Catz over any SEA player (or a kick in the balls)

The exception is events - I'll watch any SEA player playing in an event over any American in a similar event.

Quick Comments

	TABottles:	Nice post
	TCPKiaSu:	wouldn't choose to watch Catz over any SEA player (or a kick in the balls) lol

[Peleus]

- Overall the very top SEA players are comparitable to those of other servers. Moonglade can hold his own against the best players out there, Iaguz, Jazbaz, Mafia etc have played against people like Catz many times and came out victorious. What you will notice however is purely due to population we're not as numerous, so thereforre although we may be on the same skill level if we've got 10% of the population we'd only expect to have 1 top player for every 10 of theres.

This gives the impression that there are a lot more 'good' players in NA, and also explains why to some extent GM etc means a little more in other areas (excluding NA bugging etc).

I'm not a top player, but to answer your question have a look at a 'neutral' server like KR. Mafia, Iaguz etc are all on almost identical points to people like Catz. That should give you a decent approximation of their skill.

Two reasons. Like it or not the SC2 western scene follows NA / EU pro's. As a result often those following the scene will gravitate towards the 'famous' players that are mentioned a lot, rather than necessarily using skill or any other factors in deciding. Apart from that, many people like doing what is popular, so they feel better watching a stream with 2000 viewers rather than 20, because they percieve that more popular is better, and therefore worthwhile to watch.

TL is the gateway to popularity in the western scene, so really getting on their featured stream list is the defining factor in becoming popular most of the time. Also out of habit many people will check TL for who's streaming, not necessarily a relatively small notification area of sc2sea.com.

Hope it answers some of your questions.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Two reasons. Like it or not the SC2 western scene follows NA / EU pro's. As a result often those following the scene will gravitate towards the 'famous' players that are mentioned a lot, rather than necessarily using skill or any other factors in deciding. Apart from that, many people like doing what is popular, so they feel better watching a stream with 2000 viewers rather than 20, because they percieve that more popular is better, and therefore worthwhile to watch.

For me personally, its not about numbers or TL feature - it's about recognising people from tournaments. Thinking it over, I realise I think of SC2 success purely in terms of tournaments. So when I see someone playing like a boss at MLG or in GSL and then can watch their stream, it's got that connection for me.

There's one international player who's an exception to this, and that's ThorZaiN. He didn't impress me in any tournament I saw him in, but thanks to Day9, I am amazed by his ability to the point he has become a real hero of mine.

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

ThorZaiN is a boss

[mGGDaedalus]

In general I've favoured foreign streams, but as some of SEA's top players have started putting more effort into streaming, commentary, casting etc. I've started following more SEA players. Pig, tgun and mafia probably my favourite SEA players to watch at the moment

[SLCN.Kez]

For me since I have never played any of the people on TL streams I view them as much better than guys like pig, iaguz etc who I have played and psychologically dont view them as I should be learning from them if you get me? Its completely irrational and they're great players, but yeah its just something I feel lol. Plus i just like the personalities of someone like LZgamer or incontrol. As for the quality of SEA, its pretty much what legend said, we have a few really great players, but other than the top 10 or so everyone else is pretty average probably, but its hard to say how they would do on NA server as i dont really play on NA.
Again like legend said KR is wayyyy more consistant in terms of who ur playing, I always get hard challening games in high dia/low masters players on kr, but on SEA its like every 3-4th game its a long slaught macro game or something, but 1 person tries something gimicky that doesnt work or theyre just bad lol

[TABottles]

So many great posts already guys! I'm thinking i've taken those around me for granted. That being said I do get all flustered when glade pops online and proceed to follow that ballers stats. Also when Glade beat HuK at IEM (i think?) I remember the excitement I had as well as sc2sea.

[UncleTom]

The plebs of NA just like to watch Destiny play LoL or Catz proxy hatch and repeat Day9 verbatim. Without Idra and Huk who are basically Koreans, SEA and NA are even enough to say 15 SEA and 15 NA GM players in the MLG open brackets would preform very similar.

[NDG.Stitch]

Personally, I don't follow a lot of NA, I only watch KR streams. I guess the reason why SEA is yet to be as noticed globally is because it is one of the newest servers to hit Starcraft at a global level. Plus the fact that most SEA (Asian regions) doesn't have as much hype into e-Sports as many others do. This may just be my cultural view, but asians generally will see Gaming as a hobby, and only a hobby at most - not a job or a sport. So not a lot of investment is made on this side of the world (with the exception of Korea). Of course, money is huge, and advertisement is huge too. SEA does not have either of those, we don't have big companies coming in and creating a lot of hype around this server. I think its really because our servers' level/standards isn't there yet. We are still relatively new to the world therefore I believe that's why we have been a bit "ignored".

However, I think as someone said above, the entertainment level is not there. The hype that our casters create over a game is not the same as a foreigner caster may create. I'm not saying that all of em americans are great casters, but definitely we are not at that level on entertaining our crowds. I think most of all, besides our very hardworking admins that may have real jobs outside of this site, there is no solid ground on our fundamental such as sites like TL that can manage a lot of different advertisement and news and etc.

I think there is a larger and larger area of hope for us though. With breakthroughs like Glade, the Dox Cup and numerous other representatives for IEM, WCG, IeSF, I think we're getting there. What I think will be very vital is that we KEEP these players in SEA. I think another part is that a lot of players will tend to want to go compete for a foreign team and get better there instead of here.

[Zepph]

I think perhaps you're more likely to look for entertainment on a different stream as opposed to a SEA one because being in the SEA region you're a lot more exposed to these players and see them play much more. A reason why the international community does the same is because international tournaments are more familiar when choosing what to watch. If you were an NA player for example, and on teamliquid you saw "playhem daily" or "z33k weekly" or whatever, you'd probably be more likely to click on something where you know you'll potentially see some of the players you like as opposed to say, "SEA Community Open #000". People just don't like watching no-name players.

Our very top players can definitely compete with some of the better known pros especially on NA server...and even some pro players that train on Korea. I say that because obviously when they train on those servers themselves they run into them and take games off them regularly. Perhaps yes, like many, we're very far from the top players in the world (think IMMvp/Nestea level) but so are a lot of other "pro" players out there. The only reason we don't get recognised on the same level is lack of exposure as people have been saying. In other words, the people they hear about and have international fans are the ones put on a pedestal. Players from the one server no one else bothers to interact with are obviously going to be dismissed as "bad" because no one knows anything about them, as far as they're concerned they have 0 results (no MLGs, GSLs, IPLs) and no fan base.

It's a shame, but to tell the truth I don't think it's really ever going to change until sponsors are willing to back SEA pro teams enough to send them out there into the major tournaments. Our teams require many more minerals

Quick Comments

	iVnStinger:	Perfectly Explained
	breadfan:	Mvp one of the top players in the world? Tell that to code A
	Maynarde:	^ Yes he is, Code A is in trouble.

[Rockstar]

To be honest I think the other servers favour macro games, which I find interesting.. A lot of the sea streamers 1base or 2base all in... Or their opponent does... It's just not as interesting to me..

[Stallion]

- How does SEA stack up to the rest of the world?

I think SEA as a region is growing. I believe the progress of SEA has been slown by a few factors
1) There are lots of leaps in skill levels in skill
2) Because the server is smaller the top players play the korean server to improve which is understandable but means the up and coming players get match up vs the top tier less
3) Zerg dominated - the zerg understanding of the game leapt ahead of the protoss as zerg in sea has some amazing players Moonglade , Tgun , Mafia , Pig , Jazbaz and thats just the first 5 that spring to mind i know theres lots more but list the top terrans and protoss that come to mind terran - rossi yoon iaguz protoss - yang sensei and Light whos stopped playing but im struggling and so are there races (protoss in particular)

- As a top SEA player how do you rate yourself to other pros from different servers?

I wouldn't rate myself as a top player yet I'd say im a solid mid level grandmaster on SEA and this is manly due to PvZ is my worst match up. but even so my ranks on servers are gm sea top 20ish masters NA and top 8 korea diamond atm I think that speaks for itself

- Do you yourself favour watching streams from servers other than the SEA server? If so why?

I actually Favour Yangs stream as a protoss i find small numbers and his understanding make the stream excellent for asking questions and seeing some good level games. Although If im not learning I'D watch HuK or Hungun for intertainment value.

[QEDMazaire]

In terms of skill level i think that SEA is more than a force to be reckoned with, considering that moonglade nearly took out Marineking at WCG Ro8 (?), who, to say the least isn't a scrub by any stretch of the imagination so i feel that our server is more than a force to be reckoned with, but as most of the posters have said above, its an exposure thing. We are not going to become a hyped server until we get a big result on the NA/EU mainstage.

[TADivinity]

Fun fact when I saw you mention Catz:

Both Rossi (And I think someone mentioned on TS tonight that PiG also) beat Catz today!

Gives a little bit of perspective!

[TABottles]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Fun fact when I saw you mention Catz:

Both Rossi (And I think someone mentioned on TS tonight mentioned that PiG also) beat Catz today!

Gives a little bit of perspective!

Ha i'm beginning to think I shouldn't have mentioned Catz.. Just for the record - im not extremely excited with his play he just came to mind since i've watched him a few times. He's always on the tl featured streams and shiz.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by TABottles

- As a top SEA player how do you rate yourself to other pros from different servers?

Pros is such a vague term it's hard to say. I can't speak for anyone else but for me I feel that RTS and SC especially takes a huge amount of understanding and practice that takes a loooooong time to build up. If you don't earn money from sc2 and play fulltime then you can never be as good as stephano, dimaga, idra etc.

I never played any gaming tournament nor followed esports till sc2 and so it took me a long time just to evolve the way i think about and engage with the game. I realise now the more i train the better I get and am adding alot of depth to my play but am realising just how long this takes.

Now with that background info where do i matchup?

It's so hard to say. I don't think I'm BETTER then most pros unfortunately. I'm on an even or slightly advantaged footing with low-tier progamers like catz (maybe really good player if he played solid...), destiny, etc etc. But I used to never be able to consistently take games off some foreigners like Major etc. I haven't played idra or any of the reallly top top foreigners. Nowadays i don't waste my time on NA cos the variable delay makes zvz a complete pain in the ass. Instead I play Korea where if I'm in practice I regularly take games off GMs and beat code S/code A players maybe 1/4 or 1/5 times I get matched with them. So I can take games regularly off low-tier progamers, and occasionally off the higher ones.

But what about tournaments? I rarely play foreign tournaments, they're often at shitty times. Playhems are more just warmup for the days training or for fun but I am wanting to getting back into competing on the NA server and just putting up with the delay so I can put my name out there for the sake of SEA and Tt, and to practice with a tougher and larger crowd. I just wish their were more Korean open tourneys >.<.

At the moment my issue is not enough depth to punish greedy plays (alot of pros are ridiculously greedy) and working on more variety in my macro play. Also when I do hit GSL players I am always slightly too slow in mid-lategame multitasking because I spend too much time trying to outthink my opponent and simply arent used to playing such fast aggressive opponents.

More $$$ money, more tourneys, more sponsors. We're on our way towards e-sports being epic. I never would have even considered going pro if there wasn't such a great scene here in SEA built through sc2sea.com. That being said the reason we are smaller and have so much volunteer rather then paid stuff building up the scene is that we need more viewers, more people attending LANs and more people building up the community from a grass-roots level. There's so many people in Australia at least that watch gom and TL streams but have no idea the SEA scene even exists or just dismiss it as small and insignifcant.

Ways to combat this: get your friends to watch. Attend events. Don't prioritise any other social event over a LAN because you're too ashamed to say to people "no fk off I have a LAN, have your party on another day" :P. Also we need more dedicated casters. If we could a bit more variety in the casting in SEA and conscious work to hype it up then I'd be more willing to watch SEA events. Occasionally when it's something like Dox Cup all the sea casters are OMFG excited but often pretty meh "x is happening" etc. If it's a 9 hour tourney and it's hard to stay excited through the whole thing... maybe only cast the later stages? or rotate a different caster onto the same stream halfway through. The thing that stands out about the American scene is it is laughed at by the top tier professional gamers including american ones (American players included). Nonetheless though it has MASSIVE viewers and good sponsors etc because everyone attends LANs, talks about it with their friends and the casters are constantly working at 100% effort to provide exciting casting and hype. They might still talk shit at the start of a game but as it progresses they sound genuinely fascinated about the game! Maybe Americans are just better at talking loud and as if everything's fascinating but they do a damn good job. Not to crap on our casters as I realise it's starting to sound that way. I just mean that the casting in SEA can sometimes be inconsistent and repetitve. (Someone needs to steal maynarde's adminning duties so he can cast more, and zepph needs her own casting setup :P).

Anyways, late night ramblings aside, We're doing OK. There are more and more players in Australia mainly (and enderr +jazbas) that are training large amounts and devoting alot of time towards the game. We're getting much better and are starting to move beyond being challenged by the low-tier gimicky pros but still have a way to go before we will start crushing MLG pool play, in terms of skill and the money to get there in the first place.

Quick Comments

	EveTechtron:
	Nemo:	Thanks for that interesting post

[TABottles]

Thanks for your thoughts mate + how I phrased that question calling sea ''top players'' and others ''pros'' sounds extremely bias - wasn't intentional just so you know.

Keep the posts coming!

[RicocheT]

- How does SEA stack up to the rest of the world?

Most definately we have talent, but the rest of the real doesn't really know that. Until someone like PiG or Tgun or something makes a deep run in MLG, we're still under the radar.

- Do you yourself favour watching streams from servers other than the SEA server? If so why?

Yeah, I enjoy watching the Koreans stream. Two names that come to mind are MKP and Bomber, and then I've been watching a bit of oGsFin. Mainly because their builds can be amazingly good and I want to steal them, as well as see their decision making and mechanics in action.

[Zealo]

how many SEA players are GM on NA server? i know most play mainly on korea and even then might not take ladder super seriously but i'm just wondering...

tgun, moonglade, chobo i know are, who else?

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Zealo

how many SEA players are GM on NA server? i know most play mainly on korea and even then might not take ladder super seriously but i'm just wondering...

tgun, moonglade, chobo i know are, who else?

I've seen players like pig, iaguz, kjh etc in gm from time to time. Just depends what SEA players are actively laddering NA I guess

[Zealo]

considering player like ret can't get in i guess that shows SEA has some decent talent

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Zealo

considering player like ret can't get in i guess that shows SEA has some decent talent

No1 can get into gm after the season starts unless they play that ladder obsessively. They need to be the first person with the necessary mmr to go up, who happens to win a game, just as someone drops down.

It's a silly system where the league that holds the prestige is also one you need to be incredibly devoted to a set ladder to achieve. I have multiple NA accounts with GM mmr but it's so many gimicky all-ins that playing with lag is just so frustrating. KR might only be 30-50 less ping but it feels ALOT better for my connection. Not to mention I see players like ruff and combatex on the top of NA ladder which just makes it seem less and less worthwhile. Mafia, tgun, jazbas and glade are all players who could hold top 10 on NA GM if they were committed enough to laddering there. I think tgun actually is top 10 atm.

That being said, it is definitely a higher tier then our own GM ladder and therefore a good way to measure skill for sure. When me, glade and deth get gm on KR next season then we can laugh at NA :P.

[Champi]

i'm sad that i stopped playing often because i am never mentioned in lists anymore about SEA. Depressing and im sad now. i'm also intoxicated so i'm emo! T_T

- edge

Quick Comments

	breadfan:
	simon:	chin up slugger

[TARane]

i only really want to watch edge yang and rossi

[Dox]

In my opinion... our top guys are better than some (most?) of the highest regarded EU/NA players. Unfortunately we don't have the huge opportunities they have like IEM/MLG/NASL/Dreamhack/etc on a monthly basis, so our names are only in the spotlight once every 6 months, whereas theirs are always in the eyes of the community. That's where the wide perception of higher skill comes from.

Quick Comments

Flamga:

Couldnt agree more

[ToRSpartaz]

I have always thought of this idea quite highly. I do believe SEA produces some amazing and extraordinary players who may be already established or up and coming. Like in the sense of all of xG, aLt, glade, tgun and all of the ballers out there.

But really, the SEA players aren't really well known out there or recognised as they should be. I mean like irisAnother and irisFlaunt are both on NA and seriously dont get enough recognition as they should or even iaguz or Mafia who are Terran and Zerg gods ^^

I do think SEA does produce a lot of potential players, but its just that SEA can't accomodate for what they need as players AS WELL as Kr essentially. NA I don't rate as highly as Kr for practice and improvement. I could name probably 20-35 players in SEA atm who have the potential, ability and mentality to take GM places and really establish themselves as competitive players its just taking that next step in all honesty.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by Spartaz

I have always thought of this idea quite highly. I do believe SEA produces some amazing and extraordinary players who may be already established or up and coming. Like in the sense of all of xG, aLt, glade, tgun and all of the ballers out there.

But really, the SEA players aren't really well known out there or recognised as they should be. I mean like irisAnother and irisFlaunt are both on NA and seriously dont get enough recognition as they should or even iaguz or Mafia who are Terran and Zerg gods ^^

I do think SEA does produce a lot of potential players, but its just that SEA can't accomodate for what they need as players AS WELL as Kr essentially. NA I don't rate as highly as Kr for practice and improvement. I could name probably 20-35 players in SEA atm who have the potential, ability and mentality to take GM places and really establish themselves as competitive players its just taking that next step in all honesty.

No offence but I think wrong fact.. irisAnother isn't gm and Flaunt kinda got GM when it was bugged..

anyways.

- How does SEA stack up to the rest of the world?
Top playesr on SEA server would definitely stack up with some of very top level foreign players and I can say would be about Code B~ level. Would be hard to get through Code A qualifiers but it would definitely possible. (I'm sure Glade will make it sooner or later and maybe others who go to Korea and try like tgun)

- As a top SEA player how do you rate yourself to other pros from different servers?
I can take games off very big name players like Sen or Idra (1-2 vs Sen, 1-1 vs Idra, 2-0 vs Major etc) but I can't say I'm better than them. Just that I know I can take games off them from time to time. Even Korean pros like MVPtails or oGsVINES I can take games off and I'm 99% sure that the other top SEA players eg. glade, pig, tgun, rossi, iaguz, mafia and etc can do this too


- Do you yourself favour watching streams from servers other than the SEA server? If so why?

I don't have particular favourite stream. I don't favour each one to another.


The only problem on SEA would be the population issue just like most of people here said. If we ladder on SEA, the skill difference between players we meet are huge. Like GM top 150~ish are SO much worse than top20 GM. But the story of this on other servers (NA/KR etc) is that there isn't much skill difference between high masters to the GMs. Sure the GMs might be better, but high masters can take 3~4 out of 10 games convincingly unlike SEA. There is just "more" good players on other servers but the skill difference between those good players from SEA to NA is non existence

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

ooo sassy jazbas

[cruxBsK]

I think something that others are missing is that the STREAM Quality (which we can't help) is poor over here, having said that though i do watch Iaguz play and enjoy his commentary while he plays the only thing that stops me from watching our sea pro's is the stream quality.

Just touching on what PiG was saying regarding getting the SEA name out there I think this can be achieved by playing Playhems KOTH top200 etc (for those that are GM on NA) and pending results etc maybe those players can get some interviews on streams etc get the word out that SEA is not a pack of scrubs but a pool of very talented players.

My 2c's

Quick Comments

PiG:

good points, oh but the lag though :(

[SmirkToT]

i like to watch kr crash chinese
since majority of chinese pros are protoss

+ Show +

protoss is skilless

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	What
	breadfan:	1a = skill

[AusBox]

My biggest problem with the SEA server is population. I versed the same guy 4 times today. "Find match" is more like "Find Best of Three".

[Benji]

I don't have particular favourite stream. I don't favour each one to another.

Oh... I see how it is T_T

Quick Comments

NvJazBas:

lol!! Ok I was actually wrong on my statement! (ACTUALLY). I think I watcn your stream 10x more than others lol