[HDPhoenix]

I am live at SCAPE's Singapore GameFest and it is awesome here. However, I am really irritated by the way SF4 casters are talking down their players. When they lose, they emphasize they go to the "loooosers" bracket, or "yay, you got a bye, smile like a small kid (I quote, word for word)". Perhaps I'm just being an ass as a fellow shoutcaster but I really feel for this. You, the caster, are suppose to build up and icon-nize your players. Instead these casters are tearing their players down.

I am not going to even considering their casting skills. That's not the idea here. The question is, should casters focus more on "trash talking" or "hero building". I'm biased of course but I was wondering what others think

Reply 1 if you agree its more entertaining to have more trash-talking to "Spice the show"

Reply 2 if you agree it is better to focus on the better plays and decision making to "entertain with content, not fluff"

[nirvAnA]

i dont think any of the profesionall sc2 casters have ever talked down players in tournaments. day9 tastetosis etc have never done it. its just amatuerish to resort to tearing down players to build up your entertainment value.

yea iconizing players is the way to go, make pple rmb they are watching truly great players not some randoms

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

i dont think any of the profesionall sc2 casters have ever talked down players in tournaments. day9 tastetosis etc have never done it. its just amatuerish to resort to tearing down players to build up your entertainment value.

yea iconizing players is the way to go, make pple rmb they are watching truly great players not some randoms

Tastosis have insulted players before, calling them outright 'brainless'. TL fans were not happy.

I agree, casters should build up enthusiasm and excitement, building up players.

[Apth]

By trash talking a player, you've just alienated all their fans.
Casting fail IMO.

[Mezza]

that's sad. shoutcasters and event hosts/mcs as public figures, should be promoting esport and should be leading the way to promote sportsmanship. trash talking is not just bad mannered, its destructive and discourages people from competing.

[Physium]

if i'm not wrg the casters and players actually do know each other. they are all from the same community. it actually has always been like this in most of the past competitions in bugis etc.

players are fine with it and they felt it also spices things up instead of the usual mundane commentary.

[Mezza]

how can putting anyone down publicly at a public event be "fine"? even if its "for fun". and physium are you speaking on behalf of all the players because you're a player or are you/have you been doing community shoutcasts and are one of them?

true, the casters may know the players, but the audience doesn't, its like how you don't expect the majority to laugh with you when you tell inside jokes.

berating a player/team publicly doesn't do anything except turn the neutral supporters away, and it will definitely give the wrong impression to newbies trying to break onto the scene. they may see the scene as a hostile environment and those on the verge of trying to compete or even thinking about it may be discouraged.

i don't see how the community stands to gain anything at all from. if this is the standard of shoutcasting in singapore then perhaps, we're doing something wrong. i mean if its an event, and there are neutrals, newbies and seasoned pros watching, you don't have to just cater to the people within the circle.

as for tastosis, i'm glad they cleaned their act up. may have been a bit of juvenile humour and everyone may stray abit, but at the end of the day, trash talk to drum up support is fine, between the teams, but casters and commentators should be as neutral as possible and work the crowd like what the previous posts have been stating, by drumming up support, rather than insulting players. but hey, that's just my opinion, both as a neutral fan, and as a shoutcaster

[deL]

was Kelly being BM again?

[Exultant]

tastosis shoutcasting is fine, they tell it how it is. If you do something incredibly stupid, they'll rip on you. If you do something genius, they'll dick ride you. EG. tasteless repeatedly saying i expected more from moon and emphasising how bad he played and artosis' love for nesteas decision making.

[Fierypower]

Originally Posted by deL

was Kelly being BM again?

Weeellll....she did say something during the grand finals of the sc2 tourney.

[Usul]

I also think trashtalking a player is a very bad idea. However, a (very) harsh critic on a specific aspect of a player play (bad drop, awful positioning during a big battle...) is fine imo, but it's sometimes seen as trashtalking.

Originally Posted by Fierypower

Weeellll....she did say something during the grand finals of the sc2 tourney.

What did she say? I arrived a bit late at the event and missed the sc2 finals T.T

[HDPhoenix]

I believe she was the one being BM-ed

I remember it was something along the lines of this

*dead silence from SF4 casters, Kelly is waiting to cast the DOTA lower bracket finals on the MAIN STAGE that's already 10mins into it (why is the casting of SF4 going on anyways when its not on the main stage, btw?)*

Kelly: Hey guys, are you done?
SF4 caster: Hey dude, whatsup?
Kelly: Do I sound like a dude?
SF4 caster: Oh, its you Kelly.
Kelly: Yeah, I was wondering if you guys are done with SF4. I want to cast DOTA
SF4: Oh, we're not done yet. I was just talking to one of the players. Sorry lah
Kelly: Its ok, no need to sound apologetic
SF4 caster: No lah. Cause you're a woman mah. Its cause women always scold men and then we just react to it. So apologetic mah

Like... wtf? When was gender part of the question?... Yes, and it was that bad the whole time but my brain was tuning them out for most of the time

I then proceeded to literally bang my head against the shoutcaster table...

[Usul]

Originally Posted by HDPhoenix

SF4 caster: No lah. Cause you're a woman mah. Its cause women always scold men and then we just react to it. So apologetic mah

To me it sounds more like utter stupidity rather than social awkwardness. But I wasn't there, so I might be biased by the lack of context...

[rifT_Theory]

I think berating players is a bad idea to begin with. Any sense of professionalism just goes down the drain =/

[Mezza]

commenting on the fact that a poor decision was made is not trashtalking. neither is stating the fact that a strategy was poorly executed, or if a critical step was missed.

however calling some a "LOSER! and you're going to the LOSERS BRACKET" and dissing someone for getting a bye is just poor form, however you look at it. just putting stuff back in perspective here.

and now you've piqued my interest, I was attending a wedding luncheon that dragged, so what exactly did kelly utter?

[HDPhoenix]

Kelly did a great job in casting. In the GF, it was not much of a slip (cause she remarked that Rev was making a counter attack, but I believe Parkson already scouted it/expected it).

As a shoutcaster, I personally find it EXTREMELY difficult to cast live games when the players are not in sound booths (i.e. they hear everything we say). Its like commentating on soccer but not allowed to say who has the ball. Its just weird. I think Philibert and Kelly did a great job at EPIC, given their limitations.

Back on topic thou, I thought it was very tasteless (no pun intended) for the SF4 casters to diss their players, as well as rag on Kelly and basically anyone who caught their interest. And they were really doing it to buy time, have something to talk about. Instead, I felt that they should have just focused on the game. That's what casters were paid to do. If there is dead time inbetween games, then talk about strategies on what players could have done better or how they might have reacted instead. For goodness sake, don't rag on the guy who just lost, who is already feeling shitty and then rub it in his face.

If you want slap-stick humor and make people laugh at your puns/jokes, then go do stand up comedy. If you're paid to cast, then cast. Don't spoil the image that people will have about casters in general please

You want contrast? Look at Tobi-wan's cast of HON and then look at SF4 casting. I'll let the crowd at EPIC who were there for both days be the judge. Tobi-wan IS a damn good caster, and the rest of us should learn from his experience

[okokitroll]

and also.

i have not been paid for doing an event since 2008. if you were actually at SCAPE, and if you look at our booth there, the whole thing was either sponsored or it came out of our own pockets. neither have i been paid for doing casting either. EPIC gave me 5 bucks to take a cab back though.

[UnFoly]

imo, even as esports continue to grow in singapore, there will be people who dont really understand it as a sport and continue to treat it as a game.Most probably in their eyes, winning means everything to them and they overlook the fact that most probably they can't play as well as those who have competed. The esports community in singapore is still small and young, you cant get away from the public and maybe the player's mentalilty that they are still "bengs playing games"and its ok to be offensive. Good thing that there are still casters who dont fall into this category

[nirvAnA]

just sounds like social akwardness rather then intentional bm imo

[okokitroll]

wow this is just too good!

the style of commentary is very different from that of SC2, or CS, or DOTA, or any other game... so making a comparison like that just wouldn't work. surely, you wouldn't want me repeating "Sonic Boom" for 99 seconds... and quite clearly, you, and any other of you who was at SGF, weren't listening to everything we said. please YouTube "Team Spooky" or watch some SF4 videos for references.

i work for my community, and i promote the game we play and our top players with every last breathe i have, if not, i wouldn't finish every event with a sore throat. the players, our sponsors, are always very appreciative of our work, and that's very rewarding for us.

and please, do not misquote me. Kelly and i were sitting many many tables away. when Kelly asked if we were done, i said, "wassup Ying Quan." and then she asked if i really sounded like a guy, which i quite clearly remembered saying, "oh my God, Kelly is that you? i'm so sorry, i couldn't hear." and then she talked on about wanting to take over whenever we are done, and i merely said "yes of course you can, you are a woman, i will PM you."

so maybe the term "woman" sounded a little harsh, perhaps i should have used the term "lady", because that was my intention, that the ladies get priority. and they really do, i have organized tournaments whereby the ladies get to join for free.

so to put this topic to a close. i will apologise for the things i said at the show, and to Kelly of cause, if you thought i was being rude to you, i mean you no harm and i am sorry for what i said, Kim is my friend, why wouldn't BM you when i don't even know you.

regards,

and if any of you'd care to read, you could create a Round1.sg account and come mingle with us.

http://www.round1.sg/forums/index.ph...43654#msg43654

[Rchan]

IMO , people here are over sensitive .

Before i go into my main reply , i myself is a SF4 AND SC2 player although i haven't joined any SC2 tournaments before .

Firstly , I'm sure you know SF4 is a fighting game . If you ever looked at videos on Youtube for SF4 , There are TONS of videos with trash talking commentary for SF4 in Japan or US . so not only singapore is doing it .

Maybe it might sound sensitive to the SC2 crowd because the shoutcasting method for RTS games are always all about the game itself . But for SF4 or most fighting games , shit talking is usually involved to build up hype even from the players themselves . We don't follow the "korean mannerism" where most wc3 and sc2 players abide to (?) .

Overall , do not judge our commentators . You might hate it , but we the SF4 players love it . No one is complaining here , why would you if you are not playing the game ?


Just to clear up i'm not part of the commentary team , just a player .

[FatHuntresS]

2 , if its not idra thrash talking down the players dont even bother. its not funny. and its disrespectful

[Mezza]

Dear All, before any other further flaming or berating comes along, take some time to read Carzydog Ken's post on the round1.sg forums because its a well written and fair take on the whole situation.

http://www.round1.sg/forums/index.php?topic=1703.15

Next, I'm appealing to everyone in the community, SC2 and SF alike to not stoke any fires by not posting anything which may deem as a personal attack, or insult or just state any personal agenda (ie. social awkwardness/gender issues, etc. should all go out of the window, because they were not part of the issue in the opening post).

Everyone's passionate about the game and community which they come from, and views will inherently be biased, and therefore comments and criticism may oftentimes be taken a little to far.

I, in a previous post of this thread, admittedly responded very harshly when I heard of HD's comments and after gaining some perspective and background information, understand where the SF4 casters are coming from. If I have offended anyone with those statements, I apologize for it, and have already retracted them.

However, the point for this thread is in the opening post, which I believe most people have failed to read. It was directed at the 2 following issues.

SF4 casters were
1. Making fun of the losers who were relegated to the losers brackets
2. Ragging the guys who got a bye

These 2 issues here isn't just trash talking imho. Trash talking in itself is such a loosely defined term, casters doing it to drum up support for an underdog or crowd favourite, players doing it for showmanship, etc.

Now please understand where HD is coming from. He's a neutral fan, and he's not happy about it, and he's objectively asking people is it just him or does the community condone this as a whole.

Personally, I don't see it as hate (which is what the round1.sg forum thread title stated HD's thread as), but for people who actually care about the community, this is feedback. HD's a neutral fan, (as are the majority of the people here on this forum) and if he's turned off by something in the commentary, he's making it known. True, things that he feels are uncalled for may truly be unique to the SF4 scene and are deemed socially acceptable, but the fact is you've got a window of insight into a thinking neutral fan's mind, and that's awesome because he's giving constructive feedback, instead of just straight out flaming the SF4 casters.

So everyone involved in this, take a step back and put stuff back in perspective, because flaming doesn't do anyone any good and at the end of the day, both SC2 and SF4 communities only stand to lose if there's animosity between the two.

I've also moderated the thread by taking out the outright flaming, such as threads which have a long paragraph of quotes and a one liner flame. These were neither constructive, nor needed. To the users involved, please refrain from posting such things in future.

To the SF4 community and shoutcasters, I hope you'll take HD's initial comments as well as my thoughts on the neutral fans into account. As for everything else that's being said in a cast and how acceptable it is, only you guys can be the true judge of that because no one else knows the scene better than you guys.

Long post, I know, but stuff just needed to be said.

[tyco_kia]

Hi guys, if I may, I speak on behalf of SG's SF4 community and our 2 commentators, Jon and VX. I'm one of the moderators at Round1, I just want to clear up everything here.

From this thread alone, it seems that there were pockets of people who were disturbed by the way they commentated and on behalf of our community, once more we humbly apologise for any offensive comments made and if we offended anyone.

It is never their intention to abuse, put down, flame or any of that sort any player. Yes their commentary causes people to feel awkward and are at times socially unacceptable to a certain extent but it's all in good fun. I strongly urge those who attended the event to take their comments with a pinch of salt, really.

It is strange but our community simply love the way they commentate, we've had our fair share of commentators who went about doing their job perhaps in a manner that is deemed acceptable by the neutral fan. It was normal, clean and decent but it certainly didn't get us hyped the way Jon and VX do.

Most of our SF4 events to date are held in private space or closed doors whereby our commentary is not usually made heard throughout an entire event. As a result, other gaming communities were exposed to their style of commentary which inevitably developed some detractors and opinions.

I'm very sorry to say this to the neutral fans but the SF4 community will want these 2 to continue the way they commentate because we totally buy it.

Honestly speaking, there's no style of commentary that will suit the needs of everyone. We all have our different opinions, Jon and VX will never be able to please everyone. They like what they are doing, the community buys what they commentate, ít works for us, it's that simple.

In short, Jon and VX made people sit up and listen to them, that is their style of commentary. This of course will lead to likes and dislikes, positive and negative feedback but it certainly generated interest into what they were talking about which in turn is hype itself.

There are of course 2 sides of the coin to this, hence we've arrived at this thread but we're all making an effort to clear the air and address the situation with opinions and thoughts from both camps.

We're all gamers, there's absolutely no animosity between the 2 communities I can assure you. We respect what you guys are doing and we only wish for the same from your end.

Once again, thank you for your feedback! I hope this clears up everything and we hope to see you guys at our events, we'll also attend SC2 events whenever possible as a show of support for the local gaming scene.

Cheers everyone! =)

[kellyMILKIES]

Cheers guys.

[kellyMILKIES]

Hey guys. What's up omg. Haven't been to the forum in like 3 days. Except when I was showing it on the screen at GFS.
Anyway it's already over. We are different community and I know that the way the other 2 casters style of casting is because of the community.

SC2 is a more serious community so of course my style of casting is different. SF4 is a game that even 0.25seconds make a difference as we could see in the ULTRA-ULTRA loserbrackets finals on the stage so maybe they needed that style of casting.

I understand the points raised during the replies of this tread.
I read the tread on the round1.sg forums,
First of all, tread title> Some HATE by the sc2 community?
I think what's happening is that you have to ultimately understand that besides your sc4 community, other people are listening to you cast also. In fact, EVERYONE in the hall. So maybe "Bugis is used to this kind of commentary", well I don't want to be harsh but you are at a big / official event. It's not Bugis. XL style is acceptable in arcade environment, but might not be received well at events where Sponsors and Organisers are there, and the image potrayed to the people who are not in the community might not be right. You need to understand that to cast at big / official events, professionalism is important.

Secondly. " Is it truly a crime that people can’t accept beratements, sexism and racism jokes?"
Yes. It is a crime. People get sued for it left right center everywhere, all the time. But I'm not saying you were being extremely harsh or sexist nor racist towards me. I'm just saying.

Thirdly > "It’s not personal, but as I read some of the responses to these threads, but I can only express my solemn disappointment and anger at the points about how we shouldn’t give a **** about how others think and that how people do not have the right to criticize for various reasons (e.g. internet warriors, don’t dare to show up IRL, an apparent general lack of understanding about the SF4 community)".
Your listeners and people who watch your casting in fact ANYONE who hears you cast HAVE a right to give you a feedback. Don't take it as if it's criticism. I got a fair share of "feedback" back when I first casted, even till today. Your reply to this is just... not helping. It shows how you are unwilling to accept that fact that there are different. "Diversity" remember? If you want diversity casters, you will get diversity listeners / spectators.


Sigh. I have heard SF4 Casting in America, Japan etc. And I have heard Singapore casting.
It's not that I have something against the Casters. They were great in their ENTHU way.
But the reply and reaction to this post and making it sound as if the SC2 Community is trying to pick a fight with the SF4 Community is just not the right way to react.
SC2 and SF4 are both Single Player games. Surely you understand the climb to the top, however glorified, is still long and "lonesome".
Feedbacks are ultimately "Not personal". It's just a feedback to how we can work together better in future events if any, and how you can improve.
Imma be working together with xian, your top sf4 player soon. There is no hate from me to the SF4 community. None at all.

I might not even know what I'm saying. GOODDAY AND GOODBYE.

[okokitroll]

post edited because it was directly targeted at me (and perhaps HD).

in general if you've got something to tell someone directly, PM would be a great option.

-mezza

[Mezza]

And on those bombshells, I shall close the thread to reciprocate. Both communities, take whatever you want away from it, but remember this

"Make love, not war."
-John Lennon

+year 2010 message "use protection"

update - I didn't actually close the thread, someone else beat me to it, but nevermind.