[thsteal]

Hi everyone,

Im brand new to starcraft, i've been playing for about 1 and a half weeks now but i cant seem to get my head around protoss.

When I origionally did my placements I was placed in high gold, and beat almost every terran/zerg I came up against, but ive had endless difficulty vs protoss. I'm continuously scouting, using scans to watch for a DT tech patch or Collosi path, if I see him going DT i get a engineering bay and put down turrets, if he goes collosi I go vikings. Now if im doing these shouldnt it mean I should win? i have a maxed bio army and hes still on 1-2 bases while im on 3 looking preparing for a fourth. But as soon as I attack he steamrolls me. even off 1 base I get demolished, I send in 10+ vikings during a skirmish and they instantly get killed by his stalkers.

Ive also tried putting on early pressure vs fast expands but I always seem to get matched with a protos on a map where theres a tiny choke leading to their natural and I lose half my units going in from a cannon and his miniature army.

A few questions i would love answered:

1. How many vikings should i have per collosi on average?
2. What are some good timings to push forge fast expands?(How many units will they have when i first initiate etc)
3. How do I kill a turtling protoss?
4. Are hellion rushes at all efficent vs 1 or 2 basing protoss?

I could think of a million more questions because im so new but I dont want to annoy a community that im brand new to haha

Any tips on what I can try? or any questions about how I play so I can better explain my situation?

Edit: im on the US server so sorry if anyone tries to add me but im not sur how to swap over to SEA.
Thanks a million in advance

[breadfan]

What would help most is if you posted a replay or two for people to check out. Here's some general advice (I'm at about the same level)

1. Just a handful when you see them should be plenty - the trick is to focus fire the colossi down, and don't fly right into a big pile of stalkers to do so. Get a good angle. Obviously, he knows your vikings are going to cause him a problem, so that's what he's going to target. Also, split your units appropriately for storms, etc etc
2. 1/1/1 w/ banshees, 3 rax are a couple
3. Harass consistently (drops, banshees, reapers, hellion run bys), so that he 1) is afraid to move out 2) has to split his army up around his bases to cover. Protoss have this death ball style of play where for the most part their army wants to be grouped up. Also, at gold league in general, people aren't proficient at multi tasking (and it's still a challenge all the way up) - multi-pronged attacks are definitely something to work on. When a protoss turtles, that means you are free to move around the map - do a little damage here and there and don't be afraid to run away. Take a bunch more expansions, take the gold base/s, and build your economy and structures such that if you lose a battle, you can remax your army in no time.
4. Hellions are great for taking out workers, and not much else. Theoretically zealots and sentries although they might have 2 much health - I don't know.

What unit composition are you going for? Marauders are fantastic against all tier 1 units and buildings, and protoss generally eat any kind of mech play alive. A handful of stimmed marauders will take down a cannon like it's nothing.

My advice is to make sure you can do damage to his economy - banshees, drops, hellion run bys, anything to kill off probes. Killing workers is the simplest way to get an advantage.

Quick Comments

ETL.ViTaL:

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by breadfan

What would help most is if you posted a replay or two for people to check out. Here's some general advice (I'm at about the same level)


2. 1/1/1 w/ banshees, 3 rax are a couple

DONT TEACH HIM THE 1/1/1 We dont want that Start back on ladder!

[syfChadMann]

5 rax all in.. Stim concus - am i rite Arnor?..

Quick Comments

Mayo:

[Cordance]

"I have a maxed bio army" vs Collosi just isnt going to work very well. With out seeing a replay here are a few tips.
Macro, go over your macro look for any moment you where not building SVCs before the point you decided you had enough. Look for any moment you where not building units. These points are when your macro is failing any failing in macro means their army is larger than you want it to be.
Upgrades, if your engaging a protos deathball and you dont have 3/3 your in trouble. Catch is if they have 3/3 your still in trouble. Your Bio army should be weighted towards Marauders. Ghosts and EMPs will help a lot, they deal with shields and casters.
Now onto more important points Bio vs protos you need to harass. You need to make sure they arnt getting their deathball together not teching right once they have it. Hellions early game are good. Timing attacks, sorry dont have any timings off the top of my head. Drops are good.
Maxed army vs maxed army the numbers are not stacked in your favor even if you have vikings to take out collosi.
Dealing with FFE (forge fast expand) you either want to push very very quickly 2 rax play perhaps. Where they have basically nothing other than a cannon or two that you can walk around. Alternatively expand yourself ... why not double expand they dont have any units to attack with. This will speed your macro up a significant amount.

[NioXin]

I am thinking dont let it get to late game vs toss, (I play protoss btw and I have trouble vs Terran ^^,) So yeh, if you see Colossi tech path, switch to heavy marauder play, its easy to switch to coz you shouydl already have a bunch of rax and tech labs hanging off your factories... the onyl thing you may have issue with is if they are good with there forrce fields and block you out. Either get a lucky ghost EMp on the sentries, or rush in and out with a few units until you can wear dont senry energy. But stimmed rauders vs colossi is strong, they also murder stalkers. Maybe we coulld practice this in Custom games... Add me up yo.

[cruxBsK]

Welcome to the forums - you can switch to the SEA server on the initial login screen bu clicking the button that appears down to the bottom left then you will be able to select the server South East Asia (SEA).

PvT is a match up that's frustrating for most Terran players, I've recently learnt its all about eaking out small advantages scouting and adjusting your army to what they are getting.

Scouting - at the start I send my scout out around 14 supply to check around in the Protoss base when I get there I'm looking for a few things.

1. I'm looking for how many gasses the protoss is getting this will tell me if its likely going to be fast expand or some sort of tech play (or 4 gate)
2. How much Chrono boost is saved up (if any at all) is he using it on his probes? (probably going for fast expand) is he using it on his gateway and/or core? (if yes on gateway and core you are to expect a stalker zealot pressure.
3. How many pylons are in his base? Obviously when you first arrive you be looking for the above once you have done this when you are about to leave make sure you see if he has 3 pylons in his base (if there are only 2 it means there's going to be one out on the map somewhere (which I use my scouting scv to check for the most likely spot for the pylon and kill it)

Later I throw down a scan around the 8-10 mins mark on where his production is so i can see if i need to go ghost or viking (robo = colo council = temps)

Other things you can do (which I need to do a lot more) is try and keep map control as you can use this to drop into the Protoss base with 1 or 2 medivacs depending on how many bases you are on generally 2 base you send 1 medivac and 3 you can send 2 medivacs i put marines (but some marauder is ok) do what damage you can then run away (DONT OVER EXTEND HERE)

Other things you need to be doing it ensuring you are taking bases and adding production facilities (there's no point having 3 rax and 500 minerals banked) more productions and nothing building in everything is better than just having that money sitting there with 3 rax queued up with 4 things.

Mid-Late game

This is the hard bit, it generally requires good mirco and macro (dodging storms sniping temps and targeting down archons on low hp, moving vikings around to attack collo (you generally want around 10 vikings if they are colo heavy and BE READY FOR THE SWITCH TO TEMPS) also you NEED to get UPGRADES double engi bays are a MUST now days as toss are generally at some stage getting double ups chrono boosted out.

The rest is taking small victories and denying expansions and keep macroing and expanding!

Hopefully this helps a bit its a bit all over the place but this is the kind of things i try do every game in pvt (im in currently playing players from time to time)

If i remember I will look for some games to add (however I'm sure there are some outstanding examples in our replay feedback forum) which the guys over there do an outstanding job of analyzing.

Enjoy once again welcome!

Quick Comments

	Eldrid:	SO HANDSOME!
	MooZfY:
	FS.Kezz:	:)
	VB_heathen:	I've heard this all before but do i ever do it,no. Really good post, Need this drilled into my head.

[thsteal]

Hey thanks for the replies, im going to go over a few of your ideas and il get back to everyone on my progression

[cruxBsK]

sounds good mate GLHF

[grolich]

Hey!
I'm sure more people would love to help more - but that would require some replays showing the exact problems, or we're all doing guesswork.

Generally protoss should have a difficult time in the early game against the terrans and should have to block off their ramp using force fields to survive - if one group of marines and marauders gets up that ramp before he has immortals/collosi - he should be in deep trouble.

So usually you keep pressuring him to delay his tech up and his economy until he gets colossi.
If while you're doing that you're taking care to macro up on bases, orbital commands, production facilities, workers and unit production - you should be in at least a good shape for the confrontation - and be able to produce a lot faster than him (hope you have several orbital commands by now, not just command centers - and am able to call lots of MULEs, they do make quite a difference).

To be certain - at what time do they usually get the first colossus? what's the supply/bases/unit status by then? at what time is the first confrontation? and are you attacking regularly throughout until he techs?
(Just to make sure you're putting enough pressure on him)

I'm at your level, and it's just some of my knowledge and thoughts combined, but, Please give a replay so that both me and others can help more

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[|Erasmus|]

Yeah, pressuring up until you see colossi is good. Pulling back and taking a third base as soon as you see colossi is also really good. Then switch into vikings and get 4-6 vikings and get the third secured before moving back out onto the map. If you're worried (and the protoss also takes a third around this time) you can start trying to drop harass becase colossi on 2 base = most of their gas, so not massive amounts of stalkers or blink to deny drops.

This should stop them from being able to move out with the first 1-2 colossi and try and do some pressure before your viking production kicks in.

[thsteal]

Hey thanks for all the replies, ive pretty much sorted out my problem with protos. After going over my replays and using unit tester maps I discovered my marine to marauder ratio wasnt very good (I had like 5 marines to every marauder). Ive switched my playstyle around so instead of having 1 tech lab and 2-3 reactored barracks to 1 tech and 4 naked rax so if they tech collossi i can slap on 4 techs or if they go void ray i can pop on reactors. The only questions i have now are..

Is there any place to find a good list of timings? eg DT/Void ray/4-6 gate pushes or muta for zerg?

Before I ask this last question. I realise that this site provides amazing coatching if required. but since im only a new player i dont feel spending money would be that beneficial for me. I was wondering if any player preferably on the NA server could add me in game? so i can ask on the fly questions. preferrably terran as its the race I currently play. Im not worried about what level of player you are i would just like someone to toss ideas around with instead of writing out a big post and waiting for a reply while i get smashed by the same cheese etc

Edit: I realise that my rax tactic wont work forever also. Dont get me wrong i know its flawed haha

Thanks again
Thsteal

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by thsteal

Hey thanks for all the replies, ive pretty much sorted out my problem with protos. After going over my replays and using unit tester maps I discovered my marine to marauder ratio wasnt very good (I had like 5 marines to every marauder). Ive switched my playstyle around so instead of having 1 tech lab and 2-3 reactored barracks to 1 tech and 4 naked rax so if they tech collossi i can slap on 4 techs or if they go void ray i can pop on reactors. The only questions i have now are..

Is there any place to find a good list of timings? eg DT/Void ray/4-6 gate pushes or muta for zerg?

Before I ask this last question. I realise that this site provides amazing coatching if required. but since im only a new player i dont feel spending money would be that beneficial for me. I was wondering if any player preferably on the NA server could add me in game? so i can ask on the fly questions. preferrably terran as its the race I currently play. Im not worried about what level of player you are i would just like someone to toss ideas around with instead of writing out a big post and waiting for a reply while i get smashed by the same cheese etc

Edit: I realise that my rax tactic wont work forever also. Dont get me wrong i know its flawed haha

Thanks again
Thsteal

There is a "sc2sea" channel on both SEA and NA where there sometimes people from here hanging out (often only me and fur on NA, but we're both terran and I'm diamond and he's masters...). Other than that a lot of the clans have chat channels with people who'll usually answer some simple questions. Less active on NA than SEA, but you can always jump in the ToR channel (just "ToR") and ask a question if you want to.

[AxSGRiM]

1. How many vikings should i have per collosi on average?
probably 3-4.
2. What are some good timings to push forge fast expands?(How many units will they have when i first initiate etc)
FFe doesn't work versus Terran. 2 Rax pressure (search the build up yourself) is a very strong pressure to kill early protoss expansions.
3. How do I kill a turtling protoss?
Keep on scouting what their army is eing composed of, and then expand more than the protoss so you get ahead in army and economy.
4. Are hellion rushes at all efficent vs 1 or 2 basing protoss?
4 Hellions that are made from a reactored factory will do a lot of damage to the protoss economy, obviously unless he has sealed off his base, but if he is expanding and his units are spread out you can do a lot of damage.

[Sc2Clare]

1. How many vikings should i have per collosi on average?
bout 4-6 for me
2. What are some good timings to push forge fast expands?(How many units will they have when i first initiate etc)
if a protoss goes ffe, i just go for 1/1/1. most probably they wont have any units
3. How do I kill a turtling protoss?
drops and expand more yourself
4. Are hellion rushes at all efficent vs 1 or 2 basing protoss?
hellion drops are~

have u tried playing around with ghosts???? they can change the battle with just 1 emp.
have u macroed well enough??? constant scv production is really important for terran
do you always overeact to things that might not be comming???overreacting like building turrets everywhere in anticipation for dt that are not comming is wasted money

[Goldie]

1 rax expo is always good vs toss

[VB_davidbloop]

I also find my TvP matchup is my worst but have started to learn that upgraded marauders and vikings are my friends.

[Goldie]

u reallly need just enough vikigns to one shot a colo

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Goldie

u reallly need just enough vikigns to one shot a colo

Do you actually know what this is by chance? I don't actually know, I just go for a rough 6-8 and let it sort itself out.

[|Erasmus|]

That is completely ridiculous unless they are way overproducing them. Unless they are going for something stupid like 6+ colossi, that's just a silly use of a lot of gas and supply on units that are terribly against anything but colossi.

[cruxBsK]

the thing that really f's me is the switches back and forth switches just owns me.

[sourd1esel]

Since you have only been playing a little while I'm not sure ho much of this you will be able to understand. But since you are in gold you seem to be proficient and maybe you will understand it. I as having alot of trouble facing toss and then I saw this vlog. I highly recommend watching it and some of the other logs. It is very educational.

You Tube

You Tube

[Halstrom]

Lots of great advice in here, and I admit I didn't read it all, but here are some simple bullet points to remember

Game strat:
- TvP has some nice timings where you can be a lot stronger then he is. My favorite is to Bio FE then push as my 3rd & 4th medivacs come out.
- Don't get to late game vs. Toss!!! Their 200 food ball will beat yours (almost) every time regardless of upgrades.
- Don't let P get 3 bases or it's over (mostly)
- If you fail 1 & 2 then you need to drop harrass him to death and expand. (Generally) The only way to break P then is to smash wave after wave against his ball to weaken it, whilst you out reinforce him.
- If you don't play off one base then beware the P one base attacks (4/5 gate, etc.). FE's require leading scouts far enough away from your base to let you pull SCV's to repair the 3-4 bunkers you MUST build vs. 1 base P.

Composition and Tactics:
- Bio is still strongest in the meta game, though more people are playing around with mech
- Even as bio you have to react to his unit comp. Zealot heavy = more marines, stalker heavy = marauders en-mass, archons = ghost (EMP), collosi = vikings
- Use stim and have plenty of medivacs
- If you let him ball, don't engage directly. Drop, harrass any vulnerable expo's, maybe even split your army and try and flank him (to kill colo)

Rules of thumb:
- 3/3 is a must for bio, and I like to get starship armor for medivacs as well when I get an armory.
- One you are up and running on 2 base, get double Eng bay to pump upgrades.
- EMP is a must against HT's and Archons, but is awesome against other balls too.
- If against HT's, bait him to storm then stim back out. With plenty of medivacs you can counter back once he has blown his energy, end your emp's will be more effective.
- When using EMP high priority targets are HT's, archons, and immortals in that order.
- It takes 14 vikings to 1 shot a colossi. When engaging more than a couple, feint in and out with your army to drag the stalkers forward, and hit with mass vikings from the sides.
- Trading vikings for collosi kills is ALWAYS correct (as long as you kill them). Collosi take a long time and a lot of resources to replace, and vikings don't. If all you do is trade away vikings for all his collosi then you will pull ahead as long as you keep macro'ing.


Anyways....some random thoughts. Sorry if I repeated anything from above.

[thsteal]

Wow thanks everyone for the continued support and help! I havnt been able to play lately but im planning on getting back into it today. wish me luck

[VandaL]

love the terran feedback.
we're like the overlooked child in sc2 while protoss gets all the good buffs.
anyway

1. How many vikings should i have per collosi on average?
3 or 4. sometimes its not even per collosi, if you have like 7 or 8 that should hold off 3 colossi regardless

2. What are some good timings to push forge fast expands?(How many units will they have when i first initiate etc)
if you see a ffe, get techlab on rax, build second rax,get tech lab on rax, go own him once you have 6 marauders and concussive shell

3. How do I kill a turtling protoss?
drops, aggressive expansions and 1414 production facilities, you're inevitably going to lose more during trade offs, so you need to re-max faster then he can

4. Are hellion rushes at all efficent vs 1 or 2 basing protoss?
no. they're at best cute. i mean against a good toss of course. if they let you sneak into their mineral line then any other strat you use against them would probably work

[sRDreaM]

Wow playing for a week and a half in High Gold and owning terran and zerg you come across impressive O_O

[Bloodmyst]

Basically you want 4 Vikings being produced for the 1st Collossi you see, if any more Collossi are being produced add another 2 Vikings p/collossi.

I find this is always enough for me and I don't really ever over produce in Vikings p/collossi. However, If you want to be that little bit exra careful, producing 6 vikings for that initial first Collo instead of 4 can be more safe.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by kiP

Basically you want 4 Vikings being produced for the 1st Collossi you see, if any more Collossi are being produced add another 2 Vikings p/collossi.

I find this is always enough for me and I don't really ever over produce in Vikings p/collossi. However, If you want to be that little bit exra careful, producing 6 vikings for that initial first Collo instead of 4 can be more safe.

15 Vikings 1-shot a colossus, so here are some numbers to consider

5 will 3 shot a colossus, less gets worse a lot quicker.
8 will 2 shot a colossus, so having 6 or 7 is no better than 5, so if you get more than 5 it should mean you're going to 8

edit: someone on TL mathed it to 14 vikings 1 shot a colossus, so that might be the magic number. Haven't checked it myself. Obviously you'd still want 5 to 3 shot a colossus but could 2 shot one with 7 instead of 8.

But yeah bear in mind the cost of Vikings relative to colossi. Having 7 or 8 Vikings to counter them is great, but that's 1200 minerals and 600 gas, so the optimal number when colossi are a true component of the army is not the same as when he only makes one or a couple and then stops

[ToRVenom]

my worst match up is PvT ,,, i am horrible against terran

[|Erasmus|]

it's not no better unless they have no anti-air. If you have 5 they only need to target one down so you no longer 3 shot a colo.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

it's not no better unless they have no anti-air. If you have 5 they only need to target one down so you no longer 3 shot a colo.

But then you introduce a whole bunch of variables like the position you engage, your own micro ability vs theirs, etc. You can't possibly account for them when it comes to theorycrafting - you can only math out a baseline and from there, it's up to you to decide what sort of buffer you need.

But you're right, "no better" was the wrong choice of phrase. Mathematically, there's no advantage but extras increase your buffer for units you may lose.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by breadfan

But then you introduce a whole bunch of variables like the position you engage, your own micro ability vs theirs, etc. You can't possibly account for them when it comes to theorycrafting - you can only math out a baseline and from there, it's up to you to decide what sort of buffer you need.

But you're right, "no better" was the wrong choice of phrase. Mathematically, there's no advantage but extras increase your buffer for units you may lose.

If you can position well enough and micro so well that you have 5 vikings constantly getting off a full volley without ever losing them, then have my babies right now...

But indeed... Just pointing out that trying to use a mathematical model for the number of vikings like that doesn't really help you figure out how many you need in game exactly. But those are still important numbers to know.

[sRDreaM]

How much stalkers would 1 shot a viking? just curious because good toss players would micro their stalkers to target fire vikings

[Dox]

Originally Posted by MarineHero

How much stalkers would 1 shot a viking? just curious because good toss players would micro their stalkers to target fire vikings

9 stalkers with zero upgrades.

[sRDreaM]

Just watched iaguz stream and he threw in BC into his Marauder/Marine/Ghost/Viking compositions forced the toss to make more stalkers then zealots and I also think he also wanted to give the toss a hard time to decide whether to use feedback on BC/Ghost or Storm the Bio units he did it on 5 base I'm not sure if it would work on 4 bases

[ToRRedemption]

I had a similar post to this a few weeks back but to do with protoss deathballs and FaDekerrigan did one post and it changed the way i played against protoss i can actually take out the deathball now

This is what he wrote ALL CREDIT GOES TO FaDekerrigan

I'll just Theory craft if it helps. I'm having issues engaging the apparent 'Deathball' as of yet as Tosses are getting very capable at having a combination of highly upgraded Collosus, Templars, Archons, few stalkers and sentries and tons of zealots in the late game scenario.

Army Composition.

Note: In TvP, just like in ZvT, the Terran is usually the reactive race when it reaches the late game stage. (Minimum 4-5 bases each)

A typical composition would be

1) 30-40 Zealots
2) 3-4 Collosus
3) Handful of archons
4) 3-5 HTs

1) In the most ideal situation, a Terran should mass up his army composition accordingly. If the toss goes more Zealot Archon heavy, Marines should outnumber Marauders in approximately 3:1 ratio. This is because your Marines deal significantly higher DPS.

2) Vikings to Collosus ratio ideally is 3:1. Don't forget your Viking upgrades because the Toss is likely to have upgrades on par or even faster than you due to Chronoboost

3&4) Having Ghosts is an absolutely must. Prioritise the energy upgrade before going cloak(arguable). Likewise, time your ghost production such that it is in sync with the upgrade, therefore allowing your ghost to be able to immediately have enough energy to EMP. Same analogy as applied to Infestors. As for quantity, it would be ideal to have at least 2-3 more ghosts as compared to the total number of HTs the Toss has. This allows you to have a greater accumulated energy pool to snipe/EMP templars/EMP Zealot balls.

Positioning

Again, i will stress that this is the most ideal situation.

In most situations, it would be most ideal to engage in a wide open area unless your opponents lack AOE(Archons, HT Storm and Collo). This aids in maximising the DPS of your ranged army(Concave).
Arrange your bioball in such a way that it is parallel (in a line) of the Toss's army. You would want to avoid clumping to mitigate Storm Damage. Always place your marauders in front of your Marines. This is because 1) Marauders are tankier and allows your Marines a longer duration to dish out DPS.
2) Marauders have greater range than Marines. You would want them right at the front in order to slow(concussive shells) oncoming Zealots when Charge is on cooldown.

Pre-Clash

Before the clash ensues, scan to see if there's an observer. If there is, attempt to take it out with your long range vikings. After doing so, spare another scan, preferably towards the rear of the Toss army(path of incoming reinforcements) to ensure there's no incoming observer. Cloak your ghosts and attempt to take out the HTs. Beware of any Photon Cannons nearby. Usually, if the HTs are in a clump, EMP them. If they are spread out, Snipe. Ideally, you would want to Snipe the Templars in order to prevent the Toss from merging them into Archons. 2 Snipes per Templar. Shift queuing your Snipes will do you good. In the event that you do take out the HTs, blanket EMP the army , priority being Sentries then Zealots.

The Engagement and Positioning.

After dealing with the HTs, engage accordingly as stipulated above, preferably with cliffs so that your Vikings are out of range of Stalker fire. It would be advisable to target fire those Colossus down ASAP, by shift queuing the Colossus. This may lead to overkill but bear in mind that a competent Toss will also focus fire your Vikings with their Stalkers and attempt to retreat their Colossus.

I cannot stress how important it is to micro your bio ball. Attempt to dodge impending storms assuming that there is leftover/reinforcing HTs. At times, the Toss might unintentionally Storm his own Zealot ball. Continually kite and stutter step away from the Colossus while still in range of the Zealot ball. Additionally you might want to hot pick up your army which are sandwiched between force fields. Only do this if your opponents Stalker count is low/out of range. Tons of examples from GSL matches. Notable players include MKP and Puma.

Last but not least, have a group of preferably Marauders that are ready to flank any reinforcing HTs/Colossus. Build Planetary Fortresses nearer to your half of your map to buy you time to reinforce/remax after the clash assuming supplies aren't so drastically different



That is all the input I have for now. I cannot stress how difficult/APM-intensive this is but i urge every Terran ally out there to not give up till the day Blizzard responds to our cries of agony. If EG.Puma can do it, so can we right?

P.S ALL CREDIT DOES TO FaDekerrigan

[thsteal]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the replys! people are still posting and I havnt been able to thank you all!

I havnt played since early february doe to personal commitments just got back into it a week ago and was placed bronze, since then im back to top 20 gold and things have changed a little.

Im at a 90%~ winrate vs terran and 75%~ vs protoss but i cant see to break zergs. ive tried hellion expands, drop play, mech, MMM etc but they just seem to expand expand expand then hit hive and roll over me. I have no issues vs roach play but ling baneling and ling baneling infestor play into broods/ultra seems unstoppable. What are some timings I can try hit when a zerg is in their weakest compared to bio play(I prefer bio play).

Also is it just me or is silver/gold/plat 99.999% zerg?
Thanks in advance

Thsteal

[sRDreaM]

Ling baneling infestor play is really difficult to play against imo

Some things to consider against that bo:
1. You should have a healthy count of medivacs since he won't have any anti-air except for infested terran and fungal from infestors (I personally always repair my medivacs)
2. If you have high apm and have multitasking ability you should try drop multiple places to do that you should drop at 1 base to pull the army and drop at the other bases with your other medivacs
3. Save scans when moving out because you want to know where his army is at
4. Try not to let your marines be to far front of your tanks you need your tanks in the front so infestors don't poke and fungal
5. Consider getting a Raven there's a chance that burrow banelings will come in play
6. There are some people who do this but once I get my starport I get 2 vikings to take out overlords from the top side and bottom side then I prepare my drops in play
7. I don't think many ppl do this but I usually make an extra starport with tech lab getting a raven and researching Caduceus Reactor to give my medivac more energy then switch over to reactor lab I usually have 3 base by the time I put my 2nd starport
8. Try to control xel naga towers to gain map vision also build sensor towers I started using them recently really helped me alot
9. Don't' try to waste your hellions at the beginning I do my best to contain the zerg on 2 bases as much as I can that I go as far to build 2 bunkers infront of his natural with hellions lol

Something I did when I was vsing a friend was that I float 1 of my barracks around and kept on creating some tech labs and so on so I could immediately switch to marauders if I see Ultralisk

Hope this helps

[Tushig]

Watch dApollo's youtube channel Protoss guides

[Bloodmyst]

Hey thsteal,

OK, so in regards to the T v Z match up;

Reactor Hellion expand is a GREAT opener to work on and once you start to get all your timings down, there are many other little things you can implement to well..... I guess maybe "optimise" your opening to get yourself that little further ahead. For example, bunker rushing into reactor hellion FE or depot block into Reactor Hellion FE... or even fake a bunker rush into reactor hellion fe.

Now the general tips I can give you in T v Z without any replays;

- With your initial hellions, just contain the Zerg with them and keep map control. However, in the event you see a major opening to line up and roast a good amount of drones, GO FOR IT. Many Zergs at Gold and even Platinum level you will find they don't block their ramp with a Queen to prevent a hellion run-by into the main (you get into the main with hellions, your laughing btw), so no Queen blocking the ramp = run in hellions for some roast drones! Also, sometimes you may even find the spine crawler has gone down late. If the spine is still in production and the Zerg does have a Queen blocking the ramp, go in to try and roast some drones in the natural expo, most Zergs will pull their drones from their natural to their main and you can just set your Hellions on "hold" behind the Natural mineral line (it's amazing sometimes how many free kills you can get from hatched drones/lings). Also, for those Zergs who actually do have decent defense against this opener (Queen blocking the ramp and/or Finished Spine at the Nat), just set your Hellions to patrol on the outer skirts of the creep just outside the Nat. Another tip I can give, plant 1 Hellion at the Zergs 3rd as some Zergs are sneaky and will try to get a drone past them for an early 3rd. Lastly, always keep double tapping on your Hellions to check up on them when macroing as frequent as possible to make sure you don't get surrounded by lings.

- Marine on 1 hotkey, Tanks on another. It's much more effective to target fire your tanks on the banelings then to just leave them to auto-target.

- A standard timing for Mutas to arrive at your base is around 10:30, give you an idea of when you need to start getting turrets/Thors up.

- When pushing, don't be afraid to push on creep. It's great to scan ahead when you have the energy or can afford to do so, but time and time again you will find that you don't have the energy or cannot afford it and instead need to call down a mule. So, stim single marines ahead to make sure everything is clear! This ensures a much faster and safe push. Another thing, sending out a single medivac drop on the main (decoy) can also help your main army push much faster into a favourable position as well. This brings me to my next point.....

- Once you have gained that advantageous army position, always pre-split your marines. It's much easier to pre-split your marines then by doing it at the last minute when you see a sea of banelings suiciding straight into your army.

- This one works well for me... but if your on 2 base, the Zerg is on 2 base and ain't expanding, there is no reason to push... just macro up, take a 3rd and defend. Zergs who are on the same amount of bases as a Terran is generally bad..... unless they are going for an all-in. If a Zerg wants to get greedy for some reason and take 2 x hatches at once after taking their Natural, you HAVE to attack! If you just let them put up hatches all around the map and don't pressure them, you will just get overrun. In macro games, many Zergs love to put up another 2 hatches for every 1 hatch you take out, in this scenario just keep up the pressure.

- If the Zerg is being really obnoxious and it's obvious his spending much of his APM on muta harass, go out, pressure him and kick his ass. Because most likely his trying to contain you so he can expand. Most of the time he will have to pull his Mutas back to defend. Most Zergs don't like to pull their Mutas to fight Marines head on But if you force them to, kudos for you.

- Lastly, always remember your bio upgrades It's so good seeing 3/3 marines up against Ling/Bling.

Oh and nearly forgot, practice your Marine splits on the "Griffiths Marine Split Challenge Custom Map." It's great to practice your splits on.

Well, I think that is all I have for now. Sorry for the wall of text, but I ain't got much else to do atm until my new computer arrives

P.S - For the record, I LOVE playing against ling/bling/muta or infestor.... I just feel in my comfort zone when playing against the composition. I just can't stand the infestor/Brood/Corruper composition, it's a bitch to deal with.

[syfCabracan]

This might have already been said, but if you are using several scans to check for dts and if you see them then you throw up a turrets/ebay. It would be better to use mules instead and just put the turrets up regardless. You want the double ebay for upgrades anyway and you might miss the dt tech with a scan so 100 minerals at your natural is not a big price to pay for another mule and more saftey

[Terranate]

If the toss FE i usually go 3 rax stim timing (7 min mark) about 6 marauder 8-10 rines
But my common strat is the sky terran( mech) cloakshee viking Raven the transition to BC

[Mr_Zain]

If I could add my 2 cents here. I think the thing terrans need to become familiar with is avoiding the "head on" type battles with protoss. Exercising drops, preferably at two different locations, does way more damage than engaging a templar/collusus/archon ball. It also forces the toss player to split up their army into smaller chunks. 8 marines and a medvac spawning out of target fire from 4 stalkers will kill that army in a straight up fight. Ideally, you want to be putting pressure on the probe line - anything about 4-5 probe kills with 1 loaded medvac is a good drop. If you can get in, snipe some probes or a pylon and get out that's even better.

Unfortunately this requires a decent amount of micro and will detract from your macro. You need to be careful with how much attention you pay to your drops. You can also afford to expand earlier and more often if you are dropping and keeping map control. You want to avoid engaging the complete protoss army at all times.If you can practice this style of play you will find you will have a much better chance against protoss players who like to execute a timing attack.

[Wuffle]

I was having alot of trouble with the protoss deathball also. I would recommend you to try the darglein micro trainer. It helps alot with your engagement, positioning and stuff