[Champi]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

Manager - Xenomorph


Team1

SoongheeSPR
SunginSPR
MasterSPR
BalloonSPR
RyoomakSPR
FrapzSPR
Rapz
Hana
taeJa
MaSteR
SoulmanSPR


Team2

Manager - RsSPR

GGist
NothanxSPR
SatuSPR
XenomorphSPR
KangSPR
SooieSPR
RsSPR
tbkSPR
BlitzSPR
GnuelSPR
PulseSPR
PeleusSPR
LucienSPR

- this is our new line-up .they are SEA active players and there is no any problem i think

Half those players in tier 1 dont even live in SEA, and are barely considered to be active members of our community, balloon for example only just played his placement matches last night.

i would prefer that SPR used the players we know and trust rather then a bunch of their code B korean friends who smurf on our server for fun when they're bored to play in a tournament such as this...

but thats just me, what does everyone else think?

[nirvAnA]

I had a talk with Pelesus today and i believe he has relayed the msg to the SPR leaders so they will submit their refined lineup soon.

[NvRossi]

Their original lineup list went from having around 4-5 australians in it to being 100% korean... WOW

Quick Comments

	wTlzq:	agree TT
	ToRSpartaz:	Hm...
	AxSGRiM:

[ChoiJaeHoon]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

Half those players in tier 1 dont even live in SEA, and are barely considered to be active members of our community, balloon for example only just played his placement matches last night.

i would prefer that SPR used the players we know and trust rather then a bunch of their code B korean friends who smurf on our server for fun when they're bored to play in a tournament such as this...

but thats just me, what does everyone else think?

Hana taeJa frapzspr and rapz, they are actually SEA active player and they played a lot already
so i think they can join to this tourney
but Balloon used our SPR member's account eg - sunginSPR wahliaoz.Rock etc and even he played CW
and he just got his own accounnt 2days ago
If TA or other clan wanted to CW with SPR , u guys could have known him and MaSteR also
although that account is not their account, Do you guys know they alr got GM?
and it proves that they are active player

[TAEdgE]

*****(*****SPR): then again
master is brining all the koreans to play seacl
***** (*****SPR): he bascially told everyone he knows on kr to play seacl

This is not fairness. Since you can speak korean, you can go and get any random high master korean you want that is better (arguably) than the majority of the 'SEA' players. Your initial lineup turned from a half~ aussie/singaporean/malaysian lineup into your current lineup of pure Korean..

edit: Since you lost pokerface, I definitely think Ryoomak can play. Ryoomak is very good, but has played for a long time on SEA and losing pokerface does hurt, but such a drastic lineup change to koreans who play sparingly on SEA just doesn't seem in the spirit of competition :/

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	+1 for Ryoomak being eligible, hes been around for awhile. Rapz too
	JaFF:

[ChoiJaeHoon]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Kim SungHee (SoongHeeSPR): then again
master is brining all the koreans to play seacl
Kim SungHee (SoongHeeSPR): he bascially told everyone he knows on kr to play seacl

This is not fairness. Since you can speak korean, you can go and get any random high master korean you want that is better (arguably) than the majority of the 'SEA' players. Your initial lineup turned from a half~ aussie/singaporean/malaysian lineup into your current lineup of pure Korean..

edit: Since you lost pokerface, I definitely think Ryoomak can play. Ryoomak is very good, but has played for a long time on SEA and losing pokerface does hurt, but such a drastic lineup change to koreans who play sparingly on SEA just doesn't seem in the spirit of competition :/

he bascially told everyone he knows on kr to play seacl

is there a any problem from this sentence ?
they accepted and try to be active. u guys just seems like afraid of losing to them.
that is reason why SEA is worst server.
Most of tourney is too strict to foreigner u know

Quick Comments

	cRSenSei:	we no afraid
	wolf:	doesn't afraid of anything
	EveVendetta:	Unnecessary arrogance.
	faithHunter:	I can't accept you saying that our server is the worst server, sorry.
	NvRossi:	Such a strong argument
	EveMassacrisM:	Missed the point. You need to move to sea or be active for a VERY LONG TIME.
	TAEdarus:	Try to be active? They're supposed to BE active, not trying!!
	TADivinity:	Tosser

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

he bascially told everyone he knows on kr to play seacl

is there a any problem from this sentence ?
they accepted and try to be active. u guys just seems like afraid of losing to them.
that is reason why SEA is worst server.
Most of tourney is too strict to foreigner u know

See this is the exact stupid attitude I expected when you got called out. we KNOW SEA is not the highest server, your players know that.

It's not afraid - it's a SEA tourney. Sorry, i'll get Champi to call up HuK and Ret to play on SEA for 2 weeks, and then play in our lineup. Heavy exaggeration but do you see how that ruins it being a SEA tournament?

At least ask if your koreans can play, get them to play a month or so in advance, release their proper names.

It's a SEA TOURNAMENT. Ryoomak and Soulman can play, that is already very lenient. Thanks for calling SEA a joke, that's why you won't get your lineup through, proving your intentions.

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

EDGESMASHED!

[ChoiJaeHoon]

Originally Posted by EdgE

See this is the exact stupid attitude I expected when you got called out. we KNOW SEA is not the highest server, your players know that.

It's not afraid - it's a SEA tourney. Sorry, i'll get Champi to call up HuK and Ret to play on SEA for 2 weeks, and then play in our lineup. Heavy exaggeration but do you see how that ruins it being a SEA tournament?

At least ask if your koreans can play, get them to play a month or so in advance, release their proper names.

It's a SEA TOURNAMENT. Ryoomak and Soulman can play, that is already very lenient. Thanks for calling SEA a joke, that's why you won't get your lineup through, proving your intentions.

It is highly regrettable that my english isnt good

please ask champi to call up huk and Ret to play on SEA ?
u think we are afarid of them ? no. It makes SEA level to high and more funny
until when will we just see that xgking,TA,alT,infi won the tourney

u dont think its boring happen ? or u cant feel any feeling.

and i think u are delusioning. SPR based on korean.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

It is highly regrettable that my english isnt good

please ask champi to call up huk and Ret to play on SEA ?
u think we are afarid of them ? no. It makes SEA level to high and more funny
until when will we just see that xgking,TA,alT,infi won the tourney

u dont think its boring happen ? or u cant feel any feeling.

I think what EdgE is saying, isn't that he is scared or doesn't want the challenge - if that were the case then he wouldn't have bought himself a Kr account for ladder.

However, the League's aim is not to give a bunch of people money for winning - but to grow the SEA community. By allowing high level Koreans to dominate the league has two results -
1) the Koreans win, money leaves the SEA community
2) Everyone says "well we aren't going to beat the Koreans - why bother playing..." and next season... no one signs up.

This league is about building the SEA Community. Therefore it is for SEA teams and clans.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	+1
	TAEdarus:	FATALITY
	nirvAnA:
	asdfSchnitzel:
	AxSGRiM:	GG

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

It is highly regrettable that my english isnt good

please ask champi to call up huk and Ret to play on SEA ?
u think we are afarid of them ? no. It makes SEA level to high and more funny
until when will we just see that xgking,TA,alT,infi won the tourney

u dont think its boring happen ? or u cant feel any feeling.

Your english is cute, just saying

I know you think it will make it interesting, but rules over time have been put in to prevent Koreans playing (and winning) tournaments that the SEA community put on for SEA players to play in. sc2sea and others have been extremely lenient with Soulman, KingKong, and now even Rapz and Ryoomak are being ALLOWED to play for you. Every team has slowly added SEA players, then all of a sudden for SEACL you add Koreans (Non SEA-residents, they don't talk to anyone but SPR members, they don't play often) to your line-up, thus making your team extremely inflated.

By the way, there are other teams such as Eve and ToT that can definitely stir things up.

And you may find it boring, but why does your team deserve to have the Koreans that shake things up? Why not Eve? Why not ToT? Oh, they don't speak Korean and don't have higher up friends.

MasterSPR, it's about being as fair as possible. Yes historically there are the big 4/5, but SPR in my opinion is a new member of that and with Soulman and Ryoomak you definitely have a chance. You are underrating your team that you are sort of dissing by bringing these guys in.

Quick Comments

RockSPR:

Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english is cute, just saying Your english

[dippa]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

It is highly regrettable that my english isnt good

please ask champi to call up huk and Ret to play on SEA ?
u think we are afarid of them ? no. It makes SEA level to high and more funny
until when will we just see that xgking,TA,alT,infi won the tourney

u dont think its boring happen ? or u cant feel any feeling.

and i think u are delusioning. SPR based on korean.

jesus christ.

it's not that people are afraid to play better players. that's why most of the people playing in the top tier own accounts on korea.

the problem is by bringing people who clearly have no association with SEA it turns the whole tournament into an exercise of who knows the best pro gamers.

which is a complete ******* joke; surely you can accept that.

the point of the SEA clan league is to showcase the best players in SEA. if we wanted to showcase the best players possible, then i'm sure nirvana would just run a tournament open to all the big clans.

but then that wouldn't be a SEA clan league anymore.

Quick Comments

	ROOT`iaguz:	Basically this.
	Nemo:	Agreed
	mGGDaedalus:
	AxSGRiM:

[nirvAnA]

Master all you have to do is tell us more about these players. I think everyone is familiar with the other guys but not these:

BalloonSPR
FrapzSPR
Hana
taeJa

Link their bnet profile and tell us their total games played, and when they started playing on SEA.

Because by right only the following are allowed to play:
1) SEA residents or
2) Non-SEA residents but long time players of the server (salvation, soulman, targa)

Everyone will be happy after you do so!

Thanks Master

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

So much more helpful than EdgE

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

taeJa

That better not be who I think it is ... T_T

Quick Comments

ToRsupapower:

I think you're thinking about the right person ~_~

[TAEdgE]

TaeJa = BombaZenith
Hana = MaxZenith
Frapz = CoCoa http://www.sc2ranks.com/kr/1899538/CoCoA
Rapz = SSapoZenith
Balloon = NsPBalloon
Ryoomak = lOvRyooMak
MaSteR = SPR member spare account (but why in Tier 1 team?)

Personally I really wanna see tbk, Rs and Ist get a chance they have earnt.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Phew
	syfChadMann:	SEA Clan league... not Kr Clan League.
	AxSGRiM:

[nirvAnA]

lmao edge how do u know all those names

lOvRyooMak what!

[TAEdgE]

He beat HerO on stream yesterday, so impressive

[dippa]

And another thing.

Let's put aside the blatant stacking of non-SEA players to one side for a second, and have a look at SPR's proposed B-team roster.

GGist
NothanxSPR
SatuSPR
XenomorphSPR
KangSPR
SooieSPR
RsSPR
tbkSPR
BlitzSPR
GnuelSPR
PulseSPR
PeleusSPR
LucienSPR

Are you ******* serious?

Sooie, ist, Satu, tbk, Rs - they should be playing in the top tier. Just throwing out those five every week could easily obliterate every team in the second division.

This is the problem - by stacking the A-team with so many koreans (aka players who are only playing on SEA because someone messaged them to get some ladder games in), you open the door to completely break open all the other divisions as well.

Please nirvana, I implore you; put the foot down and get this shit sorted ASAP.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:
	RockSPR:	Y NO ROCK THERE

[RockSPR]

LOL epic situation over here!
But pls dont bully master so hard >_<

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

we're not bullying... Just stating facts and rules of the tournament

[NvRossi]

then tell him to put more thought into his posts

such as "they accepted and try to be active. u guys just seems like afraid of losing to them.
that is reason why SEA is worst server."

[iM MaFia]

lol rocky!! long time no c, where u been hiding?

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	LOL
	RockSPR:	EDGEEEE

[RockSPR]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

lol rocky!! long time no c, where u been hiding?

MAFIA my man MUACK

nah..........went for studying?hehe

[ChoiJaeHoon]

can u tell me a standard what is active player and what is not

[RockSPR]

i think master wants to play some arguments with u guys.
juz ignore him LOL he really retarded

[Champi]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

can u tell me a standard what is active player and what is not

Somebody who has been playing ladder on our server (WITH US KNOWING WHO THEY ARE, AND NOT SMURFING) for over 6 months

Quick Comments

	RockSPR:	CHAMPI >_< IMBA BRZ!
	ZC.EvilSWAT:	If it was me, I would say no lesser than 12 months, but this'll do fine at the moment.

[ChoiJaeHoon]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

Somebody who has been playing ladder on our server (WITH US KNOWING WHO THEY ARE, AND NOT SMURFING) for over 6 months

tiger and ych should play ladder 100games+ to join tournement and that's prove they are active on SEA

and.. what?

are you serious ? lol

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

tiger and ych should play ladder 100games+ to join tournement and prove they are active

and.. what?

are you serious ? lol

I don't think you understand what 'fairness' means, or what 'fun' is for all teams. You want your team to have fun. It is not fun for any other team, it is selfish for what you and your Korean friends want and even your own SEA team does not want you to use those players. Your team is great, the people are great, hell even you are probably alright if you don't go crazy dictator on us, and you don't need to argue this further.

I don't know what to say to get through to you, you never involve yourself with any of the SEA community so you don't know why we are arguing this t.t

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Haha Edge at crazy dictator. I like what you say :)

[dippa]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

tiger and ych should play ladder 100games+ to join tournement and that's prove they are active on SEA

and.. what?

are you serious ? lol

he didn't say they should play 100 games+; being code b heroes, they could probably knock that out in 2-3 days easily

the point is that they can't just rock up on our server, play a ton of games and go SEEE IM ACTIVE ON THE SERVER NOW I CAN TAKE ALL UR MONIEZ (which is more or less what's happening here)

[ChoiJaeHoon]

Originally Posted by dippa

he didn't say they should play 100 games+; being code b heroes, they could probably knock that out in 2-3 days easily

the point is that they can't just rock up on our server, play a ton of games and go SEEE IM ACTIVE ON THE SERVER NOW I CAN TAKE ALL UR MONIEZ (which is more or less what's happening here)

why do u think that they surely win this tourney? u think they are same as progamer? u think they are unbeatable?
and u also can join code B if u come to korea

even i won them and they also lost to some of SEA laddering people

u just seems like afraid of lose to them.

Quick Comments

	Bash:	What is this i dont even...
	:	your rep points need to go below 0
	Fourby:	what the penis just happened?

[dippa]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

why do u think that they surely win this tourney? u think they are same as progamer? u think they are unbeatable?
and u also can join code B if u come to korea

even i won them and they also lost to some of SEA laddering people

u just seems like afraid of lose to them.

i'm not playing in the top division, but if given the chance, i'd happily play everyone on your team and everyone else.

and i'd lose every game. i don't care about that, because it makes it better. but that's not the point here.

i know they're not unbeatable, i know they're not the *same* as pro gamers. (also, i wouldn't even be classed as "code B" afaik because i wouldn't have the requisite level of points in KR masters to play in the qualifiers, but that's neither here or there.)

the point is you submitted a lineup and then went and dumped half of the lineup to the B-team, replacing them with a bunch of koreans who are supposedly "active SEA" players.

now why, pray tell, would you go and do that?

wasn't your original lineup strong enough already?

Quick Comments

	Champi:	i love the pray tell but hes struggling to get the point enough as it is bro :P
	Bash:

[nGenLight]

See usually I would definitely not advocate a member outing or speaking poorly of one of their own members on the forums or in public, especially their leader - keep it in the house, follow your leadership. But in this case... uhhh...

[Champi]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

tiger and ych should play ladder 100games+ to join tournement and prove they are active

and.. what?

are you serious ? lol

No! Tiger has not been here long enough, nor is he very active on his own account very much, and ych is not active anymore either

its easy for u to say something like "oh, he smurfs on wahliaoz all the time since ages ago so hes active"

but that cant be proven so it cant be taken seriously or with confidence.

and yes, despite beeing the moonstar, I am serious.

[ChoiJaeHoon]

and u guys dont need think we just come this server now we can take all money
even if our team1 win this tourney , we will not get the money. is it fair?

and i thought active player means people who played ladder 100game+

because when ych tried to join some tourney (Master cup), one of admins told me foreigner should be prove to active on SEA. and he suggested him to play ladder 100game+ then accepted him

[dippa]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

and u guys dont need think we just come this server now we can take all money
even if our team1 win this tourney , we will not get the money. is it fair?

and i thought active player means people who played ladder 100game+

because when ych tried to join some tourney (Master cup), one of admins told me foreigner should be prove to active on SEA. and he suggested him to play ladder 100game+ then accepted him

that doesn't work either.

if you're allowed to compete in the tournament, you should get a share of its winnings. if you can't gain anything from playing, there's no point in wasting the time to play the matches.

i'd prefer you just used your original lineup that was posted, but that's just me.

and no, people don't think you're trying to take all the money. that was a joke by me. what we're trying to say is that the SEA clan league should show off players from SEA that spend the majority of their time playing on SEA.

Quick Comments

	wTlzq:	that is why there is a "SEA" in front of the clan league
	Fourby:	South east korea

[Frogmite]

Article 8 of the conditions of participation: (see OP)

You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration.

This competition is made for SEA players as we want to give more coverage to them and encourage new emerging talents. We all believe you're strong players but we prefer to make sure SEA Clan League remains SEA. We don't refuse koreans, we just refuse players that we never see around casual times.

Admins will decide which players are allowed to compete in it or not. Hope you understand.

Quick Comments

Champi:

thanks for laying down the law, we couldnt get through to him -_-"

[ChoiJaeHoon]

as i alr said, i dont use them like merc. and they've been trying to be SEA active player
just give me a standard what is active an d what is not

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

as i alr said, i dont use them like merc. and they've been trying to be SEA active player
just give me a standard what is active an d what is not

ChoiJaeHoon, could you give us the motivation for those guys to be part of SEA server ? n scene is by far the best in the world. Are they not living there (I could be mistaken) ? At level it's sometimes hard to find games and you often playing the same guys over and over, why would they come in this "worst" server when they have such a good one already ?

Is this to practice English, because they like sc2sea, they want to play against people of other culture ?

This is really an open question, I absolutely don't get their motivation and yours by the way.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[ChoiJaeHoon]

k i just quit sc2 and bb

sorry for this

Quick Comments

	Champi:	poor form, milkis did the same thing. i find this to be an extremely immateur and rash behaviour
	EveYekke:	Lol cool story bro
	SungInSPR:
	TAkrunch:	no ... don't go...

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by ChoiJaeHoon

k i just quit sc2 and bb

sorry for this

I fully understand that cultural differences might make discussions not easy. We must all try to understand how people of other countries think to be able to communicate smoothly.

I think that our n friends did their best at staying calm and not taking hard what could have been considered offensive if said from other people. I really think you should make an effort yourself to be less secretive and explain more openly why it's so important for you that they play and what is happening in SPR clan about it.

There is really no need of so extreme decisions. We won't have hard feelings even if we disagree. We only want to understand you.

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

To me, I would say being consistently active on the ladder for 2 seasons at least would *maybe* classify you as a SEA player. For example if Nemo - who lives in France - belongs to a clan and wants to join the league, we'd have absolutely no problem with that. The fact that a few of the Koreans( Soulman, kingkong ) who live in Korea are under consideration that they'd be allowed to play is already pretty ridiculous.

To my knowledge the 100+ games on ladder rule was made by organizers of the Master Cup, not SEACL, so having your friends massing games in 4 days just to join this tournament is unnecessary, irrelevant and trying too hard.

To say the truth I'm not active enough either on SEA or EU servers anyway to qualify. Haha

But I guess that because instead of playing I'm passing all my time on sc2sea.com, I could ask for a rule that say : "You could either be active on the forum". I don't do this so I don't steal all the money. haha

More seriously for "real" BSG players activity on the ladder has not the same meaning than for Diamond+ players. Rules should be more attached to link to the community or the site as subsrciption to the TGM, number of posts, number of chat line, awesomeness (), etc. Good contribution to the site could also be a criteria for higher rank players. Remember it can be hard for European players to play on SEA because of time difference.

I don't say that for me, I'm too bad to waste people time in a tournament anyway.

Quick Comments

EveMassacrisM:

I believe saying you should be active within the community sounds fair.

[EveMassacrisM]

as i alr said, i dont use them like merc. and they've been trying to be SEA active player
just give me a standard what is active an d what is not

To me, I would say being consistently active on the ladder for 2 seasons at least would *maybe* classify you as a SEA player. For example if Nemo - who lives in France - belongs to a clan and wants to join the league, we'd have absolutely no problem with that. The fact that a few of the Koreans( Soulman, kingkong ) who live in Korea are under consideration that they'd be allowed to play is already pretty ridiculous.

To my knowledge the 100+ games on ladder rule was made by organizers of the Master Cup, not SEACL, so having your friends massing games in 4 days just to join this tournament is unnecessary, irrelevant and trying too hard.

Quick Comments

	wolf:
	TAkrunch:	mainly trying too hard

[nGenLight]

Loads of drama/disagreements aside, this is shaping up to be the biggest community-based league in SEA SC2 history. Hence why I am so keen to be apart of it, tingling inside waiting for it!

Also note to clans: Let your manager/spokesperson do the managing/public speaking to avoid above disaster.

[Peleus]

Really want to put my 2c in, but scared it will create a shit storm so here we go. Please remember that I'm only representing MY opinion not SPRs, and looking for a rational discussion surrounding the issue. I also have no influence over who SPR decides to field, that's up to the managers. Now hopefully the shitstorm disclaimers are out of the way....

Why is it we have no standardized rule for who is eligible and who is not? What is considered 'active' on the server? Keep in mind a few things though...

Many of the SPR members (i.e. ych, tiger) were in SPR long before any mention of seacl2 was made, meaning they have a history with the clan and it's not just someone post league announcement joining quickly merc style and playing a heap of matches to get eligible. Hell even look in the masters cup rule thread and you'll specifically see them mentioned as active sea players. My point I suppose is that active players will be considered subjective, having a clear rule (I.e. xyz amount of games in preceding season before announcement) could solve some of these issues, and set a clear precedent going forward. Don't forget this tournament looks great, but it's also about setting up the future of seacl, so if we don't lay down clear and objective rules this shitfight may happen every season (not just with SPR).

Unclear rules I think are what's causing the most issues.

Originally i beleive reasons given for their exclusion is they were on teams, and therefore ineligable. No worries, but other players are playing for clans who are on teams also.

They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing? Yes shitstorm inc from that statement, but I believe his account has only played ~10 or so games in the last two seasons on SEA. Before people go batshit crazy I'm NOT suggesting tgun should be ineligable, I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.

Finally what about tournaments you say? Clearly tgun etc commonly plays in more sc2sea tournaments showing they are a part of the sc2sea community? Yes, youre right clearly they aren't actively joining in the community there,, but that's only because they were banned from most of them. It's a pretty silly chicken and egg scenario when you use the fact that they aren't allowed to be part of the sc2sea community as further justification for ... well ... not allowing them to be part of the sc2sea community.

Having stirred the pot I'll leave it there. Please remember these are MY views, not SPRs in any way and they never knew I was posting this. Admins you're doing a GREAT job
with the tourney so far, but please consider having objective rules in place so in the future if any clan includes people in their roster that anyone takes issue with we have a clear avenue of redress so everyone is relatively happy.

P.s. posted on iPhone, sorry for any grammar / spelling issues.

Quick Comments

	dippa:	+1 rep for being honest and speaking out
	Zealo:	awesome post. all rules should be as clear as possible
	wolf:	good post
	TAkrunch:
	Bash:	+1 for open honest, well mannered sicussion :)
	TAEdgE:
	Fourby:

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Really want to put my 2c in, but scared it will create a shit storm so here we go. Please remember that I'm only representing MY opinion not SPRs, and looking for a rational discussion surrounding the issue. I also have no influence over who SPR decides to field, that's up to the managers. Now hopefully the shitstorm disclaimers are out of the way....

Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.

Why is it we have no standardized rule for who is eligible and who is not? What is considered 'active' on the server? Keep in mind a few things though...
(...)
so if we don't lay down clear and objective rules this shitfight may happen every season (not just with SPR).

Unclear rules I think are what's causing the most issues.

In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.

In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.

They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.

Originally i beleive reasons given for their exclusion is they were on teams, and therefore ineligable. No worries, but other players are playing for clans who are on teams also.

They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing?

He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.

I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.

That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.

Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/

Look at his posts : http://www.sc2sea.com/search.php?searchid=36411



He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.

If the others want to be part of the community, they can.

But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?

Finally what about tournaments you say? Clearly tgun etc commonly plays in more sc2sea tournaments showing they are a part of the sc2sea community? Yes, youre right clearly they aren't actively joining in the community there,, but that's only because they were banned from most of them. It's a pretty silly chicken and egg scenario when you use the fact that they aren't allowed to be part of the sc2sea community as further justification for ... well ... not allowing them to be part of the sc2sea community.

That's not participating in tournament that makes you part of the community. Look at me.

Having stirred the pot I'll leave it there. Please remember these are MY views, not SPRs in any way and they never knew I was posting this.

Point taken, don't worry.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by dippa

You're going down the right path. This is the same problem that cropped up with the FadeEvetS hacking situation in that there isn't a clear policy as to what constitutes eligibility.

I don't think setting an amount of "games" could work; anything under 100-150 is really quite easy to hit for mercenaries. But like I said, this is a good starting point.

Acknowledging your post, however I'll address it in some of the 'what is part of the community' themed response below.

Originally Posted by Nemo

Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.

In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.

I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.

In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.

They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.

This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.

Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity, but that's exactly what 'leave it to the admins to decide' does. 'No unless the admins decide' is in every scenario a case by case decision and the definition of ambiguous. Since we talk about rules being a representation of a communities will, I'd draw a parallel to laws in our society. Imagine the outcry if instead of written laws we simply had a situation where "A judge will decide if what you did was appropriate". Clearly this would never work, with disagreements happening left right and centre.

Having set eligibility criteria allows an independent yes or no to be given without opinion or ambiguity. If someone however finds a way to abuse the spirit of the rules, the admins can still come in and change them, just like laws in our society need to be changed from time to time.

He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.

No problem, I was more just trying to point out that even people considered part of the community don't necessarily play 100's of games on SEA ladder.

That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.

Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/

He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.

If the others want to be part of the community, they can.

This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.

Addressing dippa's point - yes you're right that for mercs perhaps even 100 games isn't a high 'barrier'. But at what game count do they stop being a merc playing to get games up for eligibility and simply become a SEA ladder player playing? Having a reasonable number of games (25 imo but I'm open to discussion on exact numbers) highlights a few things.

1) They have a history of playing on SEA, as shown even a high number of games may not be a barrier to pro players trying to do it solely to gain eligibility, so why have it high for the following downsides.

2) Eligibility should apply to ALL players. Its easy to say that the highest tier players may find 100 games easy, but what about the BSG player who enjoys playing on SEA because it's less competition than say the KR ladder? What if they have friends playing on the SEA ladder? Once more the highest tiered player get the most focus and scrutiny, however it must be fair to all. This is also why I'm not keen on 'sc2sea.com' contribution requirements such as streaming etc. No one expects this of those in the lower leagues, why is it different barriers for the better players? Rules should be consistent and fair to all.

3) Pro players sometimes do not play a heap of ladder games. Let's face it often they are practising in customs, amongst friends, etc. I think it's unreasonable to make them play hundreds of games when many top tier players in the SEA community may not do that naturally anyway.

But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?

I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too. Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.

OK.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.

Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity,

Indeed we disagree on that point. It's driving us too far away of the main subject to discuss it here. If it's really neede for the discussion we will open another thread for that but I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.

I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:

• Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
• Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.

No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.

I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too.

You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.

Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.

Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Edit : Sorry, I won't be able to do you're replay analysis tonight, it's already 11 O'Clock and I had too many things to do including this discussion. Really sorry, I promised and failed. Will try to do it tomorow.

[JaFF]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Originally Posted by Nemo

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

[pRoTimber]

chee, ur panda police uniform cant be seen, now it looks like normal panda

You Tube

You Tube

[alwaysdryToT]

sry I feel like our team ToT is a little bit isolated from the whole SEA community, even I (as a manager of SEA team)began to come sc2sea after seacl posted.there are some reasons of these: our English may not that good to integrate this community, we dont use msn&skype,and dont even have a sc2 channel like 'team spr'. these makes us so isolation TT. Look our rosters, most of our players(even gm) u may be not familiar with, cos we are in a small circles,which i think its really terrible.
But this will be ending soon! I usually hang in team EVE and team spr channel these days,and open sc2sea see what interest happen everyday. i find u guys are so cute,the admins of this forum and many tournaments（like nirvana,Frogmite,nemo,cute sry i cant list all of u）are really honorable.but i have to say when i first come here and ask why we dont have a clan league,some guys seems not very friendly,see my -3points T.T,what scared me a lot, but it was probably my english havent explained things very clearly and properly,hope i do better in this post^^.
I will open a ToT channel on the server like team SPR,and try our best to integrate SEA community, spr is our good example as a foreigner team,they did way better than us. I hope ToT will be a important component of sea,cos we are really a huge clan,even bigger than TA i think, we have about 20+gms,at least 50masters, 260members in total,of course the top players of TA are way better than us^^.
I know team ToT is known as a cheese team in sea, yea,haha, its funny,even all of us will definitely agree with this, we even name 5 players "5 SEA Shameless cheesers".
All of u may think we are underdogs of tier 1,yes,we are not the best and most of my players are in china in order to celebrating chinese new year with their families. so there would be some lag problems.
but i have full confidence that we will surprise all u guys, we will show our RTS talent is as good as koreans like what we have shown in wc3,some of ToTers practice in kr server these months(cos in china),and some of them are top master now. Two months ago,when ToT begined, jerry was the no.1 of ToT,no question about that,but now, i have some other ace choices.
i wil create a ToT official forum in sc2sea ASAP, for some of u may wanna contact to us and have a friendly cw.
sry again for everyone may read it hard cos my weak English.i hope i say clearly~but it took me 3 hours to write.
WE may not the best team, but we are definitely not weak team, what u can sure is, ToT is always friendly(may always cheesing) clan!!

Quick Comments

	ToRSpartaz:	Get that rep up
	dippa:	you're definitely not underdogs. chinese sc2'ers are scary -_-
	Nemo:	+4 :) Welcome abord mate.
	Zealo:	that post is epic and needs it's own thread
	breadfan:	Go ToT!
	deL:	Some of your players we know from LAN in Australia :)
	sRFullstop:
	wolf:	repreprep
	Eddie:
	Bash:	That was both cute and awesome. ♥
	nirvAnA:	+1 for engrish and the plans you have for ToT! jia you!
	ToR.Arnor:	+4 yourself and PorkToT are great competitors at CH LANs :)
	ROOTPetraeus:
	:	epic post is epic. + from me! :)
	neon:	very nice glad you gave us a second chance.
	Eldrid:	awesome! ♥
	TCPLemminks:
	freaky_beeky:	Great Post, I there will be many more to come!
	iM MaFia:	chinese pride lol
	ToRPandarine:	hiya :D ToT in any name deserves some rep :D
	AxS.Sorathez:
	aLtShortizz:
	asdfSchnitzel:	MO REP FO U!
	Fourby:	SO FREAKIN CUTE!!!!!!! SDO:FIJ:DLKMRF:SDORNKF LOL!

[pRoTimber]

peleus, tgun is australian, automatic ka'chingg

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Yes. Australian/SEA resident = Auto in. Like shuffle too.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing? Yes shitstorm inc from that statement, but I believe his account has only played ~10 or so games in the last two seasons on SEA. Before people go batshit crazy I'm NOT suggesting tgun should be ineligable, I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.

Tgun counts because he is a citizen of SEA (Australia to be precise).

There's also the consideration that some Australians have difficulty playing on SEA or choose not to (Shuffle for example) that would also be allowed to play without a second's thought, for the reasons mentioned.

[Peleus]

@dippa and timber.
If citizenship is going to be used as the benchmark as to who is eligible, that's fine and I accept that. If its only avaliable to SEA born players say that. If its only avaliable to players living in a SEA country, that's fine, say that. My point is that there needs to be a clear, open and consistent approach and ruleset for eligibility.

To show that I'm not just trying to be a dick about it, here is an example of a ruleset I think would be fair for eligibility....

- Must be currently residing in a SEA country
OR
- Must have a minimum or 25 ladder games each season on the SEA server under their unique SEA account over the last two seasons.
- Must have been a member of the clan for at least three months before the announcement of SEACL#2, or for all future SEACL's been a member before the commencement of the previous season I.e to be eligible for SEACL 3 you must have joined your clan before SEACL 2 started.

I think these requirements are more than fair, but I'd be interested in the community opinion. I also think they would be effective enough at preventing 'ring ins' specifically bought in for only one tournament.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

@dippa and timber.
If citizenship is going to be used as the benchmark as to who is eligible, that's fine and I accept that. If its only avaliable to SEA born players say that. If its only avaliable to players living in a SEA country, that's fine, say that. My point is that there needs to be a clear, open and consistent approach and ruleset for eligibility.

To show that I'm not just trying to be a dick about it, here is an example of a ruleset I think would be fair for eligibility....

- Must be currently residing in a SEA country
OR
- Must have a minimum or 25 ladder games each season on the SEA server under their unique SEA account over the last two seasons.
- Must have been a member of the clan for at least three months before the announcement of SEACL#2, or for all future SEACL's been a member before the commencement of the previous season I.e to be eligible for SEACL 3 you must have joined your clan before SEACL 2 started.

I think these requirements are more than fair, but I'd be interested in the community opinion. I also think they would be effective enough at preventing 'ring ins' specifically bought in for only one tournament.

You're going down the right path. This is the same problem that cropped up with the FadeEvetS hacking situation in that there isn't a clear policy as to what constitutes eligibility.

I don't think setting an amount of "games" could work; anything under 100-150 is really quite easy to hit for mercenaries. But like I said, this is a good starting point.

[deL]

I don't think games played on ladder should amount to anything when determining how much of a part of the community they are. With how easy it is to switch servers and additionally how quickly someone who is basically playing the game professionally to accrue that many games without engaging with the community in any way it is meaningless. There is no correlation between ladder games and community involvement and it can be fabricated if that is the required point of entry by simply massing games without the need to talk to opponents or contribute.

That's where sc2sea comes in - how can you be serious about contributing and being involved in the SEA scene when you don't take the effort to sign up on the main website, or even teamliquid where a lot of SEA natives are. Sure it shouldn't be compulsory to write X blogs here or whatever but it can't hurt when proving you're committed to the server and not just here to grind your way to the top of the ladder and hang out with people who speak your language.

I guess some parallels can be drawn with nirvAnA's blog description of "fobs" here. It's not exactly like that but I think the same objections people have about the latter might apply to the former - simply physically being here doesn't mean anything if you never interact or engage with the local customs or communities.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	+1
	AxSGRiM:

[Benji]

I think this thread needs more kittens.

Quick Comments

	deL:	I will call him Professor Cuddles
	Meatex:	the kitten has come and even he disapproves of this drama
	Krrn:	Kitten Power!
	krycek:	lol just wat we needed :)
	AxSGRiM:	moar Kingston shoutouts!
	asdfSchnitzel:	Kittens!

[syfMiley]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

I think this thread needs more kittens.

Saving SEASports again!

[breadfan]

My 2c, from someone who I guess is on the outside looking in

I support the idea of having a history of being a member of SEA-based clans. As far as wording of the rules, I'd suggest something along the lines of "Member of the clan for minimum 2-3[?] months, or previous history with an SEA clan for 2-3 months". There can be a basic level of responsibility left to the respective clans to ensure they are building a team (long term) rather than hiring tournament winners (short term).

So if someone were to come and join Clan X, and was on their roster for 2-3 months but couldn't manage to get a spot in their lineup, they could switch teams to clan Y for more playing time, and not be penalised for it by having to sit out a season while they accrue time with their current clan.

To combat the concern of mercs, include something like "any player who does not remain on a team for a full 2-3 month term may be subject to inquiry by tournament admins, and any players/teams creating a mercenary situation will be penalised" - penalties could be things like a player being ineligible to participate in the next league (i.e. having their "history" with clans reset and needing to sit tight for 2-3 months until they are eligible), teams being demoted to a lower league for the next season, etc. There are plenty of ways you can incentivise teams to run a tight ship.

By doing this, you open the doors to people in other countries to come to SEA and join the SEA community - by making it easier for them to do so. There is no such incentive when open to citizens and residents only.

What about the guy in the US who works night shifts, and wants to participate in clan tournaments?

I guess it depends on what the goal of the tournament actually is. If the goal is just to improve sc2sea.com then sure, we should enforce them to be active on the site, and if you aren't someone who likes participating on forums, bad luck - play somewhere else. But if it's to further the quality of play across SEA, and to build a tournament that is worth talking about to people beyond the participants, I think participating in a clan is enough. And to be honest, I think the benefit to the SEA community in the long run is to take the latter approach anyway.

Quick Comments

Peleus:

I like the idea of getting outsiders interested in the SEA community via events like this.

[nirvAnA]

Moved this drama from the registration thread so it doesn't derail it.

This is not really "open to discussion" its more of the rule we have already set and what you should have been aware of when you submitted your lineup. Rules might be tweaked slightly but this is the stance we have.

Originally Posted by Frogmite

Article 8 of the conditions of participation: (see OP)

You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration.

This competition is made for SEA players as we want to give more coverage to them and encourage new emerging talents. We all believe you're strong players but we prefer to make sure SEA Clan League remains SEA. We don't refuse koreans, we just refuse players that we never see around casual times.

Admins will decide which players are allowed to compete in it or not. Hope you understand.

This is my definition which would be a guideline on what admins consider when granting special consideration.

1. SEA residents (tgun, shuffle, a bunch of NA teams who aren't active on SEA but their citizenship gives them automatic rights)
2. Non-SEA residents but long time players of the server (salvation, soulman, targa, frogmite <even admin!)
3. Active members on SC2SEA and in our community. (Nemo, frogmite, etc)

If players meet just ONE condition they would probably be granted permission to playl. For example many players in SEA don't even meet 3 because they are the lurker type and don't post much but that is fine and they can still play in our tournaments.

[Zealo]

it won't let me give peleus any more rep

i see grey area in rules (in any context) as a bad thing. saying "it's up to the admins on a case by case basis" is especially bad when most/all admin's are playing for and/or managing teams in this league

if the rule is something like "non SEA residents/citizens require 100 wins on ladder in 2 consecutive ladder seasons prior to start of league" then worst case scenario is we have some extra (probably high level) active players on the ladder (which counters the biggest complaint about the server)

Quick Comments

	NDG.Stitch:
	krycek:	good points

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by Zealo

it won't let me give peleus any more rep

i see grey area in rules (in any context) as a bad thing. saying "it's up to the admins on a case by case basis" is especially bad when most/all admin's are playing for and/or managing teams in this league

Admins are organizing the clan league for the community not to see their clan sake. Not a single admin will take a biased decision in a clan league. Before taking any decision we discuss with all the other admins, it takes us time and dedication so i don't really like to hear these kind of comments.

We are currently working on clarifying a bit the entry rule.

[Xenomorph]

lol, i go on vacation for 2 weeks and my team gets into a shitstorm Don't worry guys, a line up similar to my initial submission will be presented very soon, with a second team also being used. Sorry for all the trouble.

Regards,

Xeno - Manager of SPR

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

Its ok Xeno :(

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Xenomorph

lol, i go on vacation for 2 weeks and my team gets into a shitstorm Don't worry guys, a line up similar to my initial submission will be presented very soon, with a second team also being used. Sorry for all the trouble.

Regards,

Xeno - Manager of SPR

I know I keep on harping on this, but I want to state once more than these are simply my views, not the views of SPR in any way. Sorry if I'm giving you headaches Xeno

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by Frogmite

Admins are organizing the clan league for the community not to see their clan sake. Not a single admin will take a biased decision in a clan league. Before taking any decision we discuss with all the other admins, it takes us time and dedication so i don't really like to hear these kind of comments.

i wasn't trying to portray any of the admins negatively and i apologise if i gave that impression. i understand and appreciate the selflessness it takes to donate time and effort to organise something like this.

i just think something like eligibility to enter should be 100% clear with no grey area, and i see "depending on what the admins think of you" as a grey area.

[TargA]

let them play, these koreans are on the same level as the top tier australians..

Quick Comments

NDG.Stitch:

[Apth]

For me, the solution would be to run more 'global' events.

At the moment, they're hearing 'No, you can't play with us'. It'd be good if we could say 'You can't play in this tourney, but there's one coming up in a week you can play in.'

Having SEA-only events is a must. It helps build the community, and lacking the numbers of NA/EU/KR, we need that. Upping the frequency of our open events would not only give us an out when the Koreans start complaining that we're pussies, but increase site exposure.

./2c

Quick Comments

	NDG.Stitch:
	TAEdgE:
	krycek:
	AxSGRiM:

[MooZfY]

+ Show +

Quick Comments

	krycek:	LOL
	ROOTPetraeus:	hahahahaahahahaa
	AxSGRiM:

[Antel0pe]

MasterSPR, what do you want to achieve by having high performing Koreans in a SEA Tournament?

I seriously doubt that anyone would sponser another SEA tournament if they knew that some Koreans would just take the prize money with little competition. I suggest that the new players should not be able to compete.

[BBQSAC]

if everyone is worried about the SEA server being the weakest why are they shitty that koreans are trying to take part? if sea had a reputation for being a bit shit but it was the place koreans came to win stuff when SEA players started winning the rest of the world would take more notice. Glade turns up at IEM and the commentators say he has a fluffy mascot, MrX turns up 12 months later and the commentators are excited cause this guy beat up cocoa or puzzle or moon or some shit. Celebrate the challenge rather than moan about life being unfair.

MKP vs Violet game 2 from homestory cup has some amazing control btw

[syfChadMann]

This league is about developing the SEA community. Not, which is the best team in the world.. but in SEA.

Why is this so hard to understand? - the goal of this league is NOT to give out money.. its about promoting the SEA scene. Grass roots development.. if everyone improves from it, we will be able to challenge Koreans eventually. But its about developing the scene internally.. not an open tournament, but a tournament within sc2SEA and finding out which team is the best within the SEA community.

Quick Comments

	Apth:	Gentleman. Scholar.
	nirvAnA:
	krycek:	This

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

This league is about developing the SEA community. Not, which is the best team in the world.. but in SEA.

Why is this so hard to understand? - the goal of this league is NOT to give out money.. its about promoting the SEA scene. Grass roots development.. if everyone improves from it, we will be able to challenge Koreans eventually. But its about developing the scene internally.. not an open tournament, but a tournament within sc2SEA and finding out which team is the best within the SEA community.

I'm thinking about making a post on this later, but I think people genuinely have different feelings as to the best way to go about developing the scene.

Some people I feel want to almost protect what we have in a way, and shelter it allowing our current top SEA based players opportunities to win tournaments and gain prize money to 'help develop eSports' in SEA (I may touch on that later).

Others believe that the best way to develop eSports in SEA is to allow all comers into the tournaments, which may have the effect of firstly raising the general skill level, but also may have the effect of the world perceiving our server at a higher level than what it does currently. This leads to many of our SEA based pro's gaining a higher reputation due to the perceived higher challenge they go up against.

Both sides I think want eSports to grow, I think they simply have different idea's of whats the best way to go about it.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I'm thinking about making a post on this later, but I think people genuinely have different feelings as to the best way to go about developing the scene.

Some people I feel want to almost protect what we have in a way, and shelter it allowing our current top SEA based players opportunities to win tournaments and gain prize money to 'help develop eSports' in SEA (I may touch on that later).

Others believe that the best way to develop eSports in SEA is to allow all comers into the tournaments, which may have the effect of firstly raising the general skill level, but also may have the effect of the world perceiving our server at a higher level than what it does currently. This leads to many of our SEA based pro's gaining a higher reputation due to the perceived higher challenge they go up against.

Both sides I think want eSports to grow, I think they simply have different idea's of whats the best way to go about it.

If international pro teams and Koreans start dominating all of SEA's 1v1 and team league tournaments.. are the SEA players going to sign up to them?.. knowing that they will just get rolled, with no chance of making any winnings from it?... Also, the reason why SEA players aren't as good as other international players is they don't have the income available from winnings and sponsorship to play 100%.. most have University or work commitments. So if the Koreans win everything, and the SEA players can't make a decent living from it, all the SEA players will eventually give up the game full time and focus on a 'normal' career. There for in the end - no SEA player can go pro, because they don't have the chance of developing their skills.

If you want SEA to be competitive we have to grow the scene internally, until there is enough advertising pull to allow SEA players more significant sponsorship and earnings so they can spend 100% of their time focusing on their sc2 skills as a profession. When that happens, the top SEA players will be able to make the transition into a complete international competitive arena.

Otherwise, the current situation and more-so if the SEA scene fills up with Koreans looking for easy money, the only international stars will be the freaks with amazing natural talent and ability to develop on their own, like mOOnGLaDe..

Opening the doors to international pro's too early will hurt the scene, not help it. If players want a challenge with the best, then they can sign up to international events outside of SEA or buy themselves a Kr account for ladder practice.

IMO the league would be restricted to SEA only residents.. or a set number of non-SEA residents permitted to each team... it IS a SEA Clan league after all....

[MazEi]

Honestly, I wanna give my opinion on this. I'm not really active in the SEA scene in terms of finding out about the players here since like how I find out about players in the rest of the world. I could probably only remember less than 5 top players from SEA, the rest are just names that I don't really know about/never seen any games from.

And keeping that in mind, SEACL is suppose to be that league where I can tune in and find out more about the gosu's in SEA. If you just bring in people from other regions who have no affiliations with SEA, then the people who are getting the exposure won't be SEA. As much as I would love to see some random non-SEA player whom I've never seen around here before also participate, it would only defeat the purpose of the SEACL, which in my opinion is to provide exposure to the players in SEA.

But since this is a tournament, we should also provide some leniency, like to Soulman, who does in fact participate in the sc2sea community. While there may not be clear rules about it, I expect people to have enough common sense to understand the situation and act accordingly.

- A SEA chobo.

Quick Comments

	cure:	Very well said.
	LordByrnsy:	Agreed totally! =D
	Bash:	this, x10
	AxS.Sorathez:	+1

[cure]

Originally Posted by mazei

Honestly, I wanna give my opinion on this. I'm not really active in the SEA scene in terms of finding out about the players here since like how I find out about players in the rest of the world. I could probably only remember less than 5 top players from SEA, the rest are just names that I don't really know about/never seen any games from.

And keeping that in mind, SEACL is suppose to be that league where I can tune in and find out more about the gosu's in SEA. If you just bring in people from other regions who have no affiliations with SEA, then the people who are getting the exposure won't be SEA. As much as I would love to see some random non-SEA player whom I've never seen around here before also participate, it would only defeat the purpose of the SEACL, which in my opinion is to provide exposure to the players in SEA.

But since this is a tournament, we should also provide some leniency, like to Soulman, who does in fact participate in the sc2sea community. While there may not be clear rules about it, I expect people to have enough common sense to understand the situation and act accordingly.

- A SEA chobo.

I completely agree with this post.

[souljah]

What I feel is that players who are not from SEA should be allowed to join only if

1. they have been active in the SEA region for a long while (of which the definition is not set), so ie players such as ST_KingKong and soulman should be allowed to if they wish to
or

2. players who are based in the SEA region for purposes of study or work for an extended period of time ie Frogmite and Targa, and these 2 have been active in the SEA ladder for some time as well!

It is after all a SEA Clan League and not a World Clan League. If this does kick off, then we could look into inviting foreign clans (not teams still) into future versions, much like TCL is doing but as of now, I still think that it should still remain SEA-only for most of it.

[AxS.Sorathez]

Hm... I prize myself as a non-biased and multicultural person at heart (and by blood for that matter) and don't have a problem with even top-tier Korans participating in a tournament such as this (hell, having players like MVP, NesTea, MC and so on might attract more viewers, which equals more ad revenue = $$$), but it doesn't seem in the spirit of the tournament to invite them as sudden changes after having already published a line-up containing extremely strong players.

I have much respect for SPR as a clan as it gives Koreans a chance to get involved with the SEA scene, but I agree with Nirvana and Nemo to some extent and I think mazei hit the nail on the head. This is the SEA Clan League after all, it's here so the community can watch their favourite SEA clans (and players) duke it out on the "main stage" so to speak, and for players to represent their clans and test their mettle against people they know and it serves as less of an "us vs them" themed tournament than a tournament where "outsiders" (I use the term loosely and am in no way intending any offense), play, since this encourages players and the audience to side with the team from the same region as they. Unfortunately, the SPR guys who were added to the line-up are "outsiders" (so to speak), because they are not residents of SEA and aren't players that are well known, so it becomes an "us vs them" situation, something the SEACL shouldn't encourage, except for the smaller "us vs them" where you root for your favourite clan, rather than whoever is from your region. Based on this, I would rather prefer a 10 team league, rather than SPR vs "Everyone else" from a viewer's perspective.

Like I said, I don't have anything against SPR using high-tier Koreans, but if they do, they have to be players that the viewerbase and their opponents know, and I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if it had been their ORIGINAL line-up rather than a sudden change from a true SEA team to a Korean team.

Of course to be able to be "known" by the viewers you would either need to be active in the community as a voice (most easily done through sc2sea forums) or play in a lot of tournaments so you get exposure (this is of course difficult with the "this is a sea tournament" mentality and I think there should be tournaments open to everyone and anyone, so that these people can get this exposure),

This is of course just my opinion, and is in no way representative of FaDe as a whole.

P.S. To Peleus, you say that not posting on sc2sea doesn't not make you a part of the community, which I agree with, but you must see that participating in tournaments arranged by sc2sea is a little iffy if they don't know you exist, or who you are.

Quick Comments

MazEi:

Thanks for extending my opinion so nicely =)

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by FaDeSorathez

P.S. To Peleus, you say that not posting on sc2sea doesn't not make you a part of the community, which I agree with, but you must see that participating in tournaments arranged by sc2sea is a little iffy if they don't know you exist, or who you are.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I believe in equality for all players, perhaps that is even a fault of mine.

I can guarantee you that many of the "Korean Pros" have played more ladder games than some of the low tiered entrants, who also do not post on sc2sea and almost definitely there are people playing "that we don't know exist or who they are". I'm not going to rehash arguments because it will make it go in circles but I believe rules should be applied to everyone, no matter if it's Nestea or a bronze league player, and I think they should be consistent, open, objective and transparent.

The rules could very well lead to the exclusion of "Korean Pros", and I don't even have a problem with that (although certain discussions are being had in the how to grow esports thread) as long as the eligibility is the same for everyone.

The obvious counter argument is that any lower tier is "just for fun" and doesn't have prizes associated with it. I personally see prizes as irrelevant, I want to compete for the sake of competing, I think the only thing that should change between Tier 1 and Tier 99 is the skill levels, not the competitiveness or genuinity of the competition.

Once more that may simply me seeing everything as equal to an extreme extent, but I'm afraid thats my opinion

[AxS.Sorathez]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I can understand where you're coming from, but I believe in equality for all players, perhaps that is even a fault of mine.

I can guarantee you that many of the "Korean Pros" have played more ladder games than some of the low tiered entrants, who also do not post on sc2sea and almost definitely there are people playing "that we don't know exist or who they are". I'm not going to rehash arguments because it will make it go in circles but I believe rules should be applied to everyone, no matter if it's Nestea or a bronze league player, and I think they should be consistent, open, objective and transparent.

The rules could very well lead to the exclusion of "Korean Pros", and I don't even have a problem with that (although certain discussions are being had in the how to grow esports thread) as long as the eligibility is the same for everyone.

The obvious counter argument is that any lower tier is "just for fun" and doesn't have prizes associated with it. I personally see prizes as irrelevant, I want to compete for the sake of competing, I think the only thing that should change between Tier 1 and Tier 99 is the skill levels, not the competitiveness or genuinity of the competition.

Once more that may simply me seeing everything as equal to an extreme extent, but I'm afraid thats my opinion

I share your beliefin equality (and yes the same rules should be applied to tier 1 as for tier 2-4 players and I believe they are, if not, shame on you nirvana :P), but since this is a SEACL, it should be restricted to SEA players. Understandable no? Now the only problem is defining exactly what a SEA player is. The broadest definition is, of course, "a player who plays (at ALL) on the SEA server, or is located in the region intended for the SEA server" and a somewhat more strict definition is "a player who is located in the SEA area." The second of those two is the one I see as the definition that should be used, but then, the players who are members of SEA clans, or are very active in the community, but are not located in SEA, would feel shafted, which is not something we want and it doesn't help the community in any way.

As such as compromise has to be made, where there privilege of attending the tournament is extended to players outside the SEA area, but are active in the community and are accepted as a SEA player as such (I would say they would also have to played at least A game on SEA prior to the announcement of the tournament), and it is difficult to be considered active in the community, if the largest community website for the region doesn't know who you are (and personally I don't consider being active only within your own clan makes you "active in the SEA community", it only makes you active in your clan).
EDIT: Perhaps I should rephrase that, I meant that being active within a SEA-based clan does not necessitate being active in the community, for there is much more to the community than just the one clan, although if the clan is composed of a large enough number of SEA players it does allow for more SEA people to know who you are and as such you could be considered an active member in the community.
As xpaperclip said, there are ways of being involved in the community without posting on sc2sea.com, PRACBUD and the battle.net forums are examples of this. Just being well known by people on ladder would also be considered being "involved", but like I said, since the organisers of the tournament are the sc2sea admins, it can't hurt for them to be aware of your existence.

[xpaperclip]

I think the main counter for lower tiers is that the clans are all SEA resident, and we don't suddenly have any international BSG clans or whatever wanting to join. The issue only really arises in the top tier where the situation is much more competitive and SEA is still a little protectionist because we are still developing.

Having said that, I don't think posting on sc2sea.com is a necessary requisite for being part of the community; the language barrier can make that difficult (of course, props to those who do). There are plenty of other ways they can involved by playing customs with clan mates on SEA, etc.

[WahliaozSPR]

Hi guys,

Just to share my 2cents worth to the situation and i am NOT posting on behalf of SPR.

If you were to touch your heart and ask yourselves this question:

1) Would the above shitstorm have occured if SPR brought in korean no name BRONZE leaguers into the SEACL who have been played the same amount of games as yCh and TiGer has? Would it have caused any big commotion from you guys?

Just another pointer:

I guess the rules are really abit blurry. What one person's perspective of 'active' in SEA might be different from anothers. And giving the admin to decide who is 'active' or not is really not a good judgement as the admin might not be familiar with the player who has been hanging out in a particular SEA channel which the admin might not be aware of. Besides, language also plays a very big factor here in this forum, as you all can see, most of the things posted here are in English, thus i dont think the koreans really understand what is posted here and i dont think you would want to google translate everything which is here. Thus, please spare a thought for them as well. And lastly, I am apologizing on behalf of what master has said, as he is weak in English. Please forgive him as he does not really mean what he says.

Just wanna hear your views.

Thank you =)

Quick Comments

Peleus:

Well said for your point of view

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by WahliaozSPR

Hi guys,

Just to share my 2cents worth to the situation and i am NOT posting on behalf of SPR.

If you were to touch your heart and ask yourselves this question:

1) Would the above shitstorm have occured if SPR brought in korean no name BRONZE leaguers into the SEACL who have been played the same amount of games as yCh and TiGer has? Would it have caused any big commotion from you guys?

Just wanna hear your views.

Thank you =)

errrr.. No - because there isn't as much at stake in the tier 4 division.. and that division is less about competition but playing and improving in a fun semi competitive environment.. by not having a legitimate SEA team your taking potential prize away from legitimate teams (in tier 1).

The concern here is not about "SPR will win if we let them have the koreans, lets make sure that happens cause we wanna win..." but, there are non SEA players trying to dominate SEA events, this is an event designed to promote and develop the SEA scene, thats why it is hosted on SC2SEA.com and is run and 99% competed in, by SEA residents...

imo, there should just be a flat ban on non-SEA residents or a limit of 1-2 per team. The SEACL is aimed to find the best SEA Clan or team.. Or perhaps the eligibility test can be, play on SEA server more than any other?.. :P

[aLtShortizz]

Im interested to know what the sponsor of the SEACL thinks about this.

IIRC, according to his TL post, he was looking for some ways to inject money into Australian/SEA Esports community. Thus, the idea of a SEACL was introduced. Since this is an event meant to boost Esports in AusNz/SEA, i see no reason why Koreans shld be allowed to participate in it.

While i agree that the rules are very vague, its pretty obvious who are the (Overseas Players) whose active on SEA. Ppl like soulman, jerry, alwaysdry are definitely one that we can call our own and therefore allowed to participate in this. These are ppl we play with everyday and talk inside and outside of SC2, its always funny to hold a conversation with them and i really appreciate it when they try. On the other hand, ppl who doesnst even OWN an account or who plans to buy a new account and smurf 100 games, dont exactly fit in here. Their intentions are questionable and i doubt they wanna have anything to do with this community outside of tournaments.

Just a few weeks back, TASensei was beaten by a KR player whom me and him has never heard of in the CO. I felt appalled that someone like Sensei who deserved a win after trying for some time is denied by a KR smurf who probably log in just for this and den logs out after. Hell, i dont even know if this is his account or just a borrowed one.

Aus/SEA esports will never grow if all our tournament winnings are won by ppl who dont contribute at all to the community IMO. Ppl who dont talk to us, dont share their knowledge or even interract shldnt play in our tournaments, period. While i agree that KR Bteamers kinda raises the level, think about our very own peeps like Iaguz and Pig. They are trying to play Sc2 full time and it doesnt make sense if someone can just borrow an account and just win the little amount of money we have on offer.

TL;DR

No i dont like the idea of these random Korean players like Bomba playing in the SEACL. But other foreigners like soulman and jerry whom i consider a part of this community are welcome. Although u cant judge a Non-Sea player's eligibilty by the amount of ladder games he played, im sure we can all agree that some of has done more than the others to be considered part of us and fully justified their participation.

[nirvAnA]

sensei lost to Rapz, hes quite active (350 ladder games total)

yea as of now "foreigners" who are part of our community are welcome to play. aka targa salvation nemo frogmite etc

the next tournament will have two qualifiers, one open to the whole world and one just to SEA

Quick Comments

	AxS.Sorathez:
	wolf:	nice idea

[AxS.Sorathez]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

sensei lost to Rapz, hes quite active (350 ladder games total)

yea as of now "foreigners" who are part of our community are welcome to play. aka targa salvation nemo frogmite etc

the next tournament will have two qualifiers, one open to the whole world and one just to SEA

I think this is probably the best option. Residents of SEA participate in one qualifier, others play in the other. But then of course there is the question of how many qualification slots to give to each qualifier. Being a SEA tournament it seems logical that the SEA qualifier would have more slots, but of course this is up to the admins.

[Unstable]

Rules are there for a reason. Once you bend them once everyone will push you to bend them again. In that light for the current scenario it is very clear that certain SPR players should not be allowed to play.

However, Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a very unique situation with SPR. You will not find any other "clan/team" trying to compete in SEA events like this with the gray area for some of their players.

But I would encourage people to think of the positives that would come from them playing. On the fact that it pushes the boundaries of what SEA players can do? Similar to the scenario of MLG/IPL recently with foreigners vs Koreans. Koreans are considered the better players by many and when a foreigner takes a game off them there is NO better feeling in the world.(unless that player is on your team RE: IPL3 )

When having multiple "SEA only" tournaments the attitude for players has the chance to change to"I don't need to outrun the Croc chasing us I just need to outrun you "But imagine the possibilities if that changed to outrunning the Croc too? While I understand there are timezone issues with regular cups etc for the majority of players why not let tournaments like this give you that kind of excitement and thrill of competition?

I am completely aware of the sentiment "want to grow the SEA community" and saying that it should go to SEA residence etc. But its not like you would be letting people from slayers/im/fxo/mvp play.

There are plenty of SEA players who are improving to the point of where they can take games off these players consistently, glade/tgun/iaguz/pig etc etc. This will give them the ability to show that they aren't just token "good SEA players but shit compared to other servers" which is the unfortunate view on the SEA server at the moment by many people.

I always go by "set the bar high" so why not set it high so we can give the great SEA players a way to shine.

EDIT: when I say allowed to play in future I mean only tournaments similar to this one, and only SPR since it is a team of mixed SEA/not SEA. From what i see the odds aren't stacked too heavily against the SEA players in that regard.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	agreed with most
	Peleus:

[RyooMakSPR]

hello~ im RyooMakSPR

i just wanted to clarify who i am since not many people seem to know me.
not even everyone in SPR seems to know me even tho i've been there 7months haha
i bought and made me SEA acc, as an addition to my personal and same account as for my KR acc june of last year.
i started playing SEA as PowerHouse. i joined this website (been a ghost member) and figured i would ask nirvana to refer a clan or team for me. he recommended SPR as they have a lot of koreans. since then i joined SPR and changed my ID to RyooMakSPR.

I'm actually an australian and new zealand citizen. i speak fluent english, and even went to the same high school as iaguz(personal friend). since high school our family moved to korea and i have been living here ever since then.
I am currently playing as lOvRyooMak on the korean server as part of the korean clan lOv.
what's funny is that i joined SPR first before joining lOv. Since joining lOv i have been practicing and playing more on KR.. reason why i havent been playing actively on SEA ladder(never finished a season in GM cause of demotion ). Since then I have had friends and korean clan members play on my SEA account occasionally, just for fun. I am probably responsible for SPR's first connections with korean clans like lOv of which many SPR clan members and lOv members have made friends with eachother. Some korean friends and clan members have expressed their willingness to play on the SEA server as well, mostly playing by exchanging accounts with SPR members to play on SEA. Some of whom e.g. balloon(who is a clan member of lOv), have even bought their own SEA account recently and desire to play in SEA tournaments to come. Some people point out that SPR have korean random smurfs to play in friendly CW's.. but they're actually always the same friedns that play....

I just wanted to point out some facts, and have a say for Balloon who i think should be eligible to play. Its not like we play professionally or anything close to it, for my case and balloon's we are just ordinary clan members and play for fun.. It is hard for korean players to play actively and participate in SEA as it is for you guys to play and make friends on KR due to their short english.

edit: I do believe other players should be carefully considered by the sea community tho. im not too close with everyone else to know how much they would actively play on SEA.

anyway that was my first official introduction on this site..
feel free to make friends or ask questions to me on RyooMakSPR.519 channel team spr on SEA, lOvRyooMak.517 on KR channel clan lov

Quick Comments

	ROOT`iaguz:	I'd like to vouch for Tae Hyung Ryoo here. He's alright.
	Peleus:	Thanks for coming and posting here mate
	SungInSPR:	>_<
	nirvAnA:
	ROOTPetraeus:	:D
	Eddie:
	TAEdgE:

[AxSGRiM]

I'd just like to add that a lot of the accounts that the Koreans are using are just spare accounts from SPR members.... So counting ladder games doesn't really make sense.

[Peleus]

Well SPR are asking the admins and community for approval for 3 players.

yChSPR
TiGerSPR
BalloonSPR

yCh & TiGer have been active in our community with long histories in the masters cup and ladder. They are even specifically mentioned here (http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2730) as being active in the SEA community. Players such as yCh we also active in the latest masters cup they were eligible for.

Balloon is a newer member who has begun being very active in this community, recently playing about 40 games / week. He is not a professional player or member of any gaming team. Instead of just smurfing on other accounts he has specifically went and purchased one with the aim of integrating further into our community. He is often playing custom games on top of his ladder play with guys such as JazBaz, so he has definitely been active with us.

I truly believe it offers benefits to the SEA community to let these guys play, including showing our ability to draw great players and even more highlights the ability for our best to mix it with all comers. We've seen this lately with examples such as the IGN pro league qualifiers, and I think this can also highlight our communities skill.

So opening it up to the community, what do you all believe?

[TargA]

let them live

[nirvAnA]

Yoyo like I've mentioned to you and posted 4-5 times already.

Take a screenshot of their profiles with their games played and put them in your post. Its not such hard work, and if you are serious about them playing you should do it. The deadline is tomorrow btw as thats when the teams finalise. The admins will decide from there and we will also consider what you have said above but only if we see the screenshots of their profiles.

[WahliaozSPR]

Hi

I attached yCh and TiGers pics of their number of games played

[Peleus]

and that's Balloon

http://imgur.com/NiOSt

[AxSGRiM]

I think yCh and TiGers deserve to play and perhaps Balloon next season...

[TAEdgE]

May as well forfeit now

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by EdgE

May as well forfeit now

With that attitude, yes.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by Petraeus

With that attitude, yes.

Don't talk to me about attitude

edit: don't get me wrong, all the players (ych, balloon) are really nice (tiger had such bad english that i think he hates me now LOL) and actually put in time for a server like this, allowing me to actually get a game without waiting 5+ minute . I just don't think this season is good for a pure Korean a-team SPR lineup. After losing so many players on the team i play with, and with other teams using purely SEA players, it seems like the competitive aspect dissapears for me since SPR is by far the strongest, probably slightly more than xGKing with those players. I can play all of their players on SEA ladder, hell i've played half of those guys I listed earlier on KOREAN ladder haha, but I guess other people getting the chance to play them is great!

I just think future competitions/next SEACL would be better for Balloon/TiGer.. yCh i'm not sure, he's been around for ages but his activity has diminished since his activity for Startale has increased.. but I just want SPR to field at least half SEA players each week is all, if that happens i'm happy .

Example if SPR get those players:

Week 1:

SoongheeSPR
GGist
RyoomakSPR
yChSPR
SooieSPR

Week 2:

SoulmanSPR
RapzSPR
SunginSPR
RsSPR
BalloonSPR

instead of

SoulmanSPR
RapzSPR
BalloonSPR
yChSPR
TiGerSPR

I just wish Sungin added 1 or 2 more players such as tbk (really good, deserves a-team) and like Kang (if hes active).

[Peleus]

I can assure you it definately wouldn't be the 'strongest' players every week. All of the players wish to play, SPR is no different to any other team in that regards. Just as TA who I'm sure have some team members stronger than others, I'm sure you won't be playing the same guys every week.

From SPRs perspective though it has advantages of scheduling if some players are not avaliable certain weeks, and honestly it would feel a lot better for our clan if all members could actually compete so we can have a real clan league.

My 2c

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

yes TA will not use same lineup each week :)

[Frogmite]

We've spoken with the admins concerning those three players,

We'll accept players IF they don't belong to a korean pro team and IF their activity on the SEA ladder is high enough (at least 100 games).

So to resume:

yCHSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KingKong)
TigerSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-k...ers/2842_Tiger )
BalloonSPR: OK BUT must play a minimum of 100 ladder games before playing in SEACL. He's not active enough on SEA at the moment.

[Peleus]

Thanks for your response, but more importantly thanks for having detailed reasons why, and clarifying it for future events.

[TAEdgE]

I like that, however Soulman just joined a professional team, may not be the same level as Startale so i don't know how that ruling goes. I want soulman to play but just mentioning he did join a pro team.

edit: dw i hear he can play!