[aLtShortizz]

With regards to the various new tournaments being held and Sponsorship money from Tt injected into the Masters Cup, i feel like there shld be a re-evaluating of the KR players playing in SEA tournaments.

Now i must admit that im one of the ppl who agreed that KR players shld be allowed to play in SEA tournaments in the hopes of them raising our standards. However, after sometime i feel that it has done more harm than good in our E-sports scene.

What worries me is that, an aspiring Pro player from SEA would have much more difficulties with competition from KR players who wins at every level even in SEA's very own tournaments. For this, Id like to take Iaguz, Rossi and Pig as examples(Note that i did not imform them i was writing this).

As players moving into the Pro scene, they are essentially some of the best players in their region. Its common knowledge that they are not of the standard to compete in the GSL or even most of the major tournaments around the world. To do that, they have invest time into training and that means having no other income except for SC2 Monies. Coaching, Sponsorship and Tournament winnings are basically the only ways for them to earn money and support themselves while they train to become better. Idk muich about sponsorships so ill skip that, but i believe none of them have fixed salary and are at most, paid for their trips down to Lans. Coaching wise, theres only a small pool of students and that doesnt generate much income in the long run.

Which leaves us... Tournament winnings. Now that KR players are playing in almost all of our tournaments like CO, ESL, Masters cup etc etc. There is very little chance of our players winning, esp the big ones like the Masters cup or Dox cup. The arguement from the other camp is, the Koreans will raise our standard and create interest. My question is, which Top sea player doesnt have a KR account that he can hop on if he wish to train and raise his standard? In fact, they cant do so because its hard to win money via tournaments. This actually discourage players to go pro full time, with no time to train(Need to earn money dur), how are they gonna get better?

What i am seeing here is. A KR semi-pro player gets an account(Free usually), mass some games and reach the desired amount to be ''accepted'' by our community. Logins whenever theres a tournament with decent prize winnings, logs out of it after winning it and never comes back until theres another tournament. Not exactly creating any ''interest''.
So how exactly is that raising our standards? I would very much prefer ppl like Pig, Rossi, Iaguz to get win money, train hard and then win more money. At least i get to talk to these guys and they mingle around and even teach the community a thing or 2 sometimes.

So what are your thoughts?

Quick Comments

	Highlander:	I
	deL:	Said this ages ago, no one listened -.-
	EveMassacrisM:

[TargA]

lets ban moon-glade too, lets ban everyone that has played on another server than SEA as well

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	Oh no you didn't, TargA.
	Synizta:	TargA has a point.
	deL:	Ban Norwegians
	NvPinder:	Kristoffer Marthinsen: we need TA reptrain to (down)rep roz

[Roz]

we need to ban targa from these SEA tourneys so he stops using his tournament winnings for "sexy times" with his maids of his maids

Quick Comments

	TargA:	its your maids that has maids
	x5.Revenant:	What TargA said. Don't use the sentences that describe you, on others Roz.
	mGMUSE:	good night roz
	NvPinder:	Amazing avatar.
	TAEdgE:	Best nose i've ever seen.
	iM yang:	i like the cut of your jib
	dippa:	i upvoted this because you don't like the cut of iaguz's gib
	TAkrunch:	I do not have my own opinion =)
	TADivinity:	I like turtles!

[syfMiley]

Originally Posted by Roz

we need to ban targa from these SEA tourneys so he stops using his tournament winnings for "sexy times" with his maids of his maids

I would rep you but I have been banned from repping, it's the thought that counts though ain't it?

[DeNile]

Let's be fair to the op, not derail it straight away. Agreed it is hard for pros in sea to make the money just from sc. But it's not just the prize winning from tournaments that are the be all end all. Most SEA tournaments do not have the prize money avaiable to support upcoming pros. It's a general lack of main stream audience, that is something that is changing day by day though for the good (ppsl) excluded

[inFeZa]

Thats why some tournaments are 'Must live in AUS or NZ etc," and some are "SEA account"

Perfectly fine in my eyes, if ST_Ace wants to come and take our money thats fine with me - More exposure for SEA!

Quick Comments

EXCL:

yep agreed totally.

[Mayo]

I agree with OP.

You have to allow for the 'locals' to compete and win in order to promote SEA SC2 as an eSport.

[Tom]

I guess it ultimately depends on what the sponsors or others putting up the prize money want to get out of the tournament. If its local exposure, then sure - put a postcode on it (better yet, host it at a lan so you know who is who).

That aside, in principle I don't see why we should treat SEA gamers like a protected species. If you want to be a pro, you have to compete at a real professional level (and that means playing against Korean professionals who come along, if the money is good enough). If anything, I would expect our local aspiring pros want to play against the established pro gamers anyway.

(But yeah, I always love getting steamrolled by those annonymous korean pros doing their mandatory time on the SEA ladder, as referred to by Shortizz.)

[Highlander]

It's chicken and egg. SEA Semi-Pros can't be Fulltime-Pros, unless they can sustain themselves and justify playing all the time. If you want to improve, you have to play against the best people you can.

So, considering we are looking at this from a community perspective, the question is:

Does attracting a true pro (or multiple pros) to a tournament being more benefits to the community and its profile than giving the incentives required to turn one or more semi-pros into true pros?

Compared to the group here, my opinion means little. But from my limited perspective as a viewer more than anything, I'd suggest that there is SO much SC2 coverage these days that you can watch quality matches for most of your day, with the remianing few waking hours easily consumed by quality streams. With this in mind, I fear that encouraging a true-professional for an online tourney (or anything less than a big offline) adds little/no value.

TL;DR: +1 OP

[Delraich]

Maybe the tourney's need rebranding so it is clear what they are. For example: regionals, nationals, internationals, etc.

[mOOnGLaDe]

well no shit it did more harm than good, anyone could of guessed that

and i have already been banned from 1 sea tournament before!

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	keep banning him, he's not australian
	ToRDeathsFang:	Because your avatar has Pokemon in it

[aLtMrFool]

What to do moonglade, you're just too good

[RicocheT]

There were times where I would agree with OP, but thinking about it, I can't say this for guys like Rossi, PiG, mOON etc., but my train of thought is that they embrace the challenge of taking games off pros like ST_ACE, which makes winning a tournament all the more sweeter for them. As I said, I can't speak for them but that's simply my train of thought which would be if I were competing in these high tournaments in SEA, I would love to go against some of the best players in KR and beating them for a tournament? Even better ^^

[mOOnGLaDe]

I think a challenge is great and all but when you're dealing with these really tough korean players every local tournament i feel it really disinterests me from competing, its no longer a contest of whos the best in SEA or australia or whatever but it adds this super opponent from korea, now saying all this i don't play in sea tournaments that often, but when i see results and its either soulman or the other guy winning them it makes me sad and uninterested.

There is a place for playing top koreans and thats international tournaments, and you should qualify for them by winning your region, not beating your fellow sea players and then a korean at the end like those iem qualifiers it seems..

Doesn't do good for the community the tournaments or the motivation of aspiring sea players, but thats just my opinion ^o^

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Says the guy that beat oGsMC yesterday
	TAScarecrow:	SEA tourneys should be a stepping stone not a farm

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

I think a challenge is great and all but when you're dealing with these really tough korean players every local tournament i feel it really disinterests me from competing, its no longer a contest of whos the best in SEA or australia or whatever but it adds this super opponent from korea, now saying all this i don't play in sea tournaments that often, but when i see results and its either soulman or the other guy winning them it makes me sad and uninterested.

There is a place for playing top koreans and thats international tournaments, and you should qualify for them by winning your region, not beating your fellow sea players and then a korean at the end like those iem qualifiers it seems..

Doesn't do good for the community the tournaments or the motivation of aspiring sea players, but thats just my opinion ^o^

I was thinking that it should probably be other way (that it's better they provide the challenge than not, and people should relish it) but I can kind of understand this logic, actually. Same as how we discourage smurfing in BSG/GPD tournaments here because it's supposed to be a tournament for these players, and it would be frustrating for a GPD player to go all the way to the final only to get stomped by some masters + guy that decided it would be fun to win something (only in the high level case this includes prize money).

Now obviously not every tournament organised by someone on sc2sea has to be a local tournament (same as not every tournament has to be restricted to certain leagues) but I guess it would be nice if some of the prize money stayed in tournaments where the SEA players actually have a really strong chance to win it.

As GlaDe said, it's going to be discouraging if you have to be able to take down Soulman and KingKong before you have a shot at -any- prize money.

So I guess I agree with Eddie's rule. it makes sense to provide 2/3 tournaments as a way to motivate SEA players with a more realistic chance at the prize money, but still have that stiffer challenge on occasion.

Originally Posted by felixleewaiyeow

sounds like protectionism to me, i guess in this world, its the best who wins.

So where's the motivation for someone in SEA if they need to be better than mid-tier korean pros to win anything. larger prize pools for Masters Cup will only encourage more Korean players to spend the 2 hours it takes them to hit masters here. Good for publicity when the occasional SEA player makes a decent run against some koreans, but why would they train at this game when they won't even do well in the local events?

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

This post is as handsome as you are.

[Meatex]

i feel like tournaments like community open should be for SEA community members only
but having said that is near impossible to define community member without alienating someone who shouldn't be. Say that players must live in a SEA country then players who are from SEA country but happen to be in another country cannot participate. (like me - aussie but live in korea)
I think the current system of needing to have played certain number of games is the best option available.
Perhaps introduce a rule where Korean players must have consistent naming between KR and SEA servers would be a good idea.

Ultimately if we prevent international players from joining then emerging pro players will only garner attention from the local community. But if our guys start beating koreans I think that could make a name for guys like PiG and iaguz - or at least a good start.

Has anyone considered joining in on korean equivalents of community opens etc? I think there are a few guys fluent in korean that could peruse playxp and translate some tournament posts. I could even ask my gf for help from time to time.

[felixleewaiyeow]

sounds like protectionism to me, i guess in this world, its the best who wins.

[Frogmite]

I think it is a good idea to make two different categories of tournaments:

- Local tournaments: for SEA/ANZ residents
- Open/International tournaments: for everyone that gets a SEA SC2 client

It's always good to host tournaments when pro korean players participate. It's great for the show, and for SEA players as well that get the chance to fight against tough players. It gives exposure as well to SEA scene, and gives the chance to SEA players to prove their value.

In the other hand, some events deserve more local attention, like CO/Master cup/ESLSEA. If we open these tournaments to korean pro-players, there will be a lack of interest from SEA players because they know they will have very few chances of winning.

I believe, it will boost the interest of semi-pro/pro players in SEA if we organize more local tournaments.
It will also give more chance to discover new talented players in SEA.

We'll just need to find the perfect balance between local and open tournaments so it'll develop SEA e-sport in a better way.

[NvRossi]

My opinion has always been against having Koreans in our SEA tournaments but there has never been any direct rules against it, That being sad i am personally a big fan of Eddies' 2/3 rule.

Furthermore I feel there is little to no benefit to the players from having them or vsing them in a local tournament, the challenge loses it novelty quickly. Just have a look at the recent Masters cup and ESL monthly results.

edit: I also like Frogmites points

[Maynarde]

In regards to this issue, I definitely agree and support what Eddie has done with the Master's Cup. For reference on the new rules see here.

Other regular high level SEA tournaments (excepting others like Dox Cup which exist for international exposure) should enforce a similar rule. It's unfortunate, but right now SEA's best are in a different league to the professional Koreans.

Here's hoping that changes one day

[crAzerk]

it would be frustrating for a GPD player to go all the way to the final only to get stomped by some masters + guy that decided it would be fun to win something

Sounds like me this week LOL.

Anyway regarding the OP, I never understood the logic of including Koreans in our local tournaments (When I say local I mean SEA/ANZ). The argument of 'higher calibre matches' and 'stimulate improvement among our players' is easily refuted by what Shortizz said, in that if players wanted to improve, they would play on KR server, etc. And they do.

I absolutely agree with what Eddie has done with the Master's Cup. In case you are too lazy to click, the new rule implemented is that non-SEA/ANZ residents are only allowed to participate in every 3rd Masters Cup.

Perhaps the CO and any regular tournament we have can be also adjusted as such - that every month, one of it will be an 'Open' category as many have mentioned here, but most of the time it is only restricted to local participants.

Quick Comments

Mayo:

<3

[Nobunaga]

What would be interesting if we actually accepted more Koreans into the SEA scene. Maybe not immediately, but gradually. They live so close to us, I feel it's an untapped advantage that the US and EU scenes won't get.

Maybe have a monthly "beat the Korean" tournament, where we invite a Korean pro-player to face off against several SEA players. Maybe have a tournament to determine who gets to fight it out?

[Tom]

Looks like the weight of opinion is against me, but I must say I don't see the issue. I mean sure, we can lock out Korean professionals (or non-Korean professionals for that matter), and allow our local guys to be big fish in a little pond.

I am going to say something that may be unpopular, but I hope those who have known me long enough will forgive my honesty. Now, I occasionally watch the odd local SEA tournament stream out of mild curiosity as to "who's who" in the local scene. But when I think "eSports", I go straight to GSL, MLG etc. Quite frankly, I don't bother with SEA tournaments because (and I say this purely as a social SC2 player and spectator) the standard is not that high.

What I love is when I can get up early and watch JazBas making it through the brackets at BlizzCon, or PiG playing the best in the world at IEM. And this brings me to my point about SEA tournaments. As a spectator, what I want to see are local players battling it out with top talent. Any local gamer who aspires to be a "professional" should be able to go head to head with real Korean pro gamers (we're not necessarily taking GSL Code S players here, just a solid pro level gamer). I don't mean "beat" (but that would be good), but put up a real fight - give me a good show.

So, I say bring on the Korean pro gamers in local tournaments. As I said, these guys aren't Code S players - in pro gaming terms, they are "competent" but not stars. Any SEA player who dreams of being a pro gamer should be able to "bring it" to a competent Code A or Code B player. If they can't, they are unfortunately, a big fish in a small pond. And watching that kind of "eSport" does not interest me.

But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be small prize money local tournaments for local players

There needs to be a place for up and coming players, or just a tournament where you know you can play without getting whaled by the big fish. Now I would have thought market forces sorts this out rather nicely. Social tournament - small prize money - not worth a professional player's time. If I am wrong in this, and pro gamers are signing up for tournaments with (lets say) $50 prize money, then perhaps a prize pool cap would be justified. If so-called pro gamers are signing up for $50 tournaments, however, that raises a lot of questions for me. Not least of of these is, if it takes say 2-3 hours to win a tournament, and the prize pool is $50, isn't it time to quit SC2 and get a job at Maccas?

[aLtMrFool]

I feel that this is the same for low masters players where they just feel discouraged from joining masters cup or even ESL for that reason.

I have experienced it first hand before and it really destroys the competitiveness and will to get better in you. This is because in ESL and masters cup low masters players are often paired with GM players and GM players obviously beat low masters..

Back some months when I'm in low masters, I would lose to high GMs on the first round of most tournaments and its really discouraging.. Each time I lose on the first round, I just felt less and less like playing to improve because there would be such low chance of me ever winning in any tourny which involves masters and GMs together..

Now I'm high masters and have a better chance against most GMs and I actually feel more confident and motivated to play in such tournaments for the chance ( which is now bigger but crushed utterly by Strafe on the first round in the recent ESL.. Yea first round high GM again but I don't care about it as much as last time when I get utterly crushed within 15 minutes of game start, at least I live longer now and in certain occasions in the game where I had a chnace to win but didn't know obly until I watch the replay).

So what I'm trying to say is that, having top korean pros topping most tournaments in SEA is very demoralising for those aspiring pros to be. If the aim was for there to be exposure to the SEA scene, an invitational tournament would be much better won't it? Let our pros get the confidence and motivation to improve and then the second step to invite koreans.

* The SEA scene is still very young and letting koreans own their tournament seems like rushing it if the reason is to promote SEA scene.

** Picture this: Admist the singapore soccer scene, add an EPL team in and every other season, we see that team at the top. Will you people lose interest in the scene? ( Not that I have any interest in the soccer scene but maybe this analogy would reach out to some people better )

In conclusion, I will agree with letting SEA people duke it out more often against each other while we're young and having korean pros once in awhile. Why rush trying to boast our scene when we still aren't close to them? SEA e sports scene is far from matured, give it time to mature before pushing it out.

TLDR: I totally agree with eddie's new rules and it should be somewhat extended to SEA tournaments. I'm not trying to shut out all korean pros from duking it out with SEA's top, it just shouldn't happen every tournament or else sponsors and viewers will start losing interest because a big dog is chewing everyone else apart! For the better of SEA esports.

MrFool.439,
Signing off!

[TADivinity]

Everything that OP / glade / frogmite / rossi etc have said - cant disagree with at all. Eddie has got it right imo too with the Masters cup.

Honestly, look at the numbers in ESL every week compared to what it used to be. Surely that shows the 'benefit' of the KRs being in SEA tourny's...