[SLCN.Kez]

This is my application for the extra diablo 3 beta key which is currently up for grabs!

Before writing this long winded and probably extremely controversial article which is sure to earn me many flame hating posts, I would like to take the time to say that in general I have nothing against women. (Believe it or not).

Cracking my knuckles, brewing a massive pot of V, releasing all energy and tension from my neck, I will now begin the post that will probably get me hated by just about every person on SEA.
So, girls in e-sports. Who'd-a-thunk it. There are a few various reasons, circumstances, and clear results that most of the time, women and e-sports just don't seem to peacefully co-exist. One such reason is because for the longest of time every thing that male "geeks" have been doing has been scorned by women and men alike, but of course we lash out at women because no one likes to be insulted by the ones we could potentially love, with hate being a much closer emotion to love than apathy will ever be, for which we leave to the guys who pick on us. Another reason I have a few grudges with women in professional gaming and broadcasting is because of the quality (or lack there off) they posses, and still manage to get into the same spotlight/success as their male counterparts, simply because they are girls. Lastly the issues a lot of women face in gaming are the problems they have been facing for centuries, guys who feel like being misogynistic assholes for the sake of being misogynistic assholes.

Now then, I hope that after reading the first paragraph you simply haven't thought "TL;DR", and typed "What you got against girls you sexist pig" etc, but please bare with me, there is light at the end of this bigotry tunnel, just let me exacerbate a few of the ideas I mentioned above, starting with the reason why perhaps a lot of gamers dislike women in general.
As previously aforementioned, people have (thought not always) criticized and ridiculed us geeks. Be it out of jealously because we are so obviously good looking but also brilliant and smart (insert troll face), or just for the fun of it, being a gamer will get you bagged. However, the problem comes when the girls of the schoolyard have possibly said these things to us, bare in mind I'm not even close to saying that every single gamer was abused by girls and this is why they hold such hostilities for them, this just may be one reason. So, continuing on with my point, nobody likes to be genuinely insulted and emasculated by the ones we hold sexual desires for, and no I'm not kidding this time. It is out of this hate for feeling inadequate by the ones that we wish to hold dear that I believe a lot of the hate for women come from. After all, hasn't everyone here had their heart broken by some girl for one reason or another, and then felt it impossible to not feel anger towards them? (except for me because in writing this article I am obviously demonstrating I have no heart). So, since high school or perhaps earlier, sometimes even later, we harbor this anger towards women, only to see them emerge in the very games that we play alienating us from them in the first place! The travesty!
To preface my next point, I have no idea about how many female gamers attempt to get into the coverage scene, but it appears that many of the ones who do, are able to do so with less trials and tribulations, and overall less skill at whatever they do, simply because they are female and sex sells.

I feel it is undeniable that some women get special treatment in the e-sports scene purely because they are women, and have some idea of what they are doing, however, how much of an idea is debatable. This pains my very soul, because I don't think we should be sacrificing the finish and expertise of e-sports coverage simply so we can have a few pretty girls talking about games, whilst having desperate geeks who have never held a woman in their life lap it all up because they are simply in awe of a beautiful woman. The very reason I was inspired to write this article that will mutilate my reputation on this site (crits for over 9000, WoW jokes are lame but I thought it relevant) was my utter dissatisfaction whilst watching the IPL pacific qualifies today. The quality of the casting by the 2 girls (I don't know their names tbh) was pretty poor at best. Now don't get me wrong, I've heard kellymilkies cast before and aside from her slightly annoying voice (had to put it in sorry, but I hate moletraps voice as well!) I actually think her casting is pretty good. She brings up relevant strategies and ideas at the right time, she has good synergy with whoever she is casting with, and overall knows whats going on in the game and can guide and engage the viewer with what is happening in the game. These 2 casters today however, could not. I open the chat of the IPL stream to see the views of my fellow gamers, and little to my surprise I see two arguments. The first saying "They are terrible *insert sexist jib here*, the second being Don't be sexist you *insert generic insult here*. My problem with this, though, is that the latter of the arguments were defending them purely because they were women, and not because they were casters who are trying to work hard to bring a better experience to the viewer, where as the former argument seemed to have some valid grounds for disliking their casting. I will admit, I know absolutely nothing about how hard these girls have worked to become casters and to get the gig at the IPL pacific qualifiers, but I feel confident in saying it wasn't half as hard as some of the guys who didn't get the job have worked. I also could have forgiven these 2 casters (I really should go google their names) had they been a bit nervous, stammered here or there, and maybe had less than synergistic speaking properties with one another. Unfortunately, sources say they are silver and gold players, who obviously don't know much about the game, yet still get to be in this prestigious spot of casting big names in sc2 in front of thousands of online spectators, a dream not many get a shot at fulfilling. This paragraph seems to have been a horse thrashed after death many times over so I will let you guys make up your mind about that one.

Lastly, more guys are gamers and pursue gaming professionally than girls. Fact. Unfortunately humanity is not perfect and the minority will always get picked on, with this being a clear example of it. It sucks, I have no disillusions about it, I personally would hate to be a casual or even aspiring pro gaming female in this industry, but that is kind of the way it is, and if you are truly passionate about it I think a lot of haters (myself included) would respect that and probably leave you alone and we could co-exist peacefully which I wholeheartedly do want.

To wrap up let me say this: It is obviously not the girls fault that there are so many problems at the moment with girls in the spotlight at televised e-sports events. A lot of it comes from companies who know that sex sells (lets face it, it does) and think it would be a great idea to put these women who are keen and willing to be a martyr to help promote their business. You might ask then why the hell am I writing this article? I'm glad you asked. The reason is because I love e-sports so much. I have been playing games since I came out of my blessed mothers womb and I intend to teach my eventual kids to do the same, and it pains my very soul and existence when I see events that could be truly great, but have an Achilles heel in UN-qualified girls who are casting and presenting the events who, in a very large portion of the time don't know anything about the game or the organization they are being hired by, and I feel that the quality of the even suffers because of it.

Haters gonna hate, potatoes are gonna potate.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	"Haters gonna hate, potatoes are gonna potate." I chortled. :D
	Imperial:	this shit is eloquent
	deL:	article was OK but then you ruined it with stupid comments in the thread
	Starcraftmazter:	The worst thing is there exist masters girls who could have done infinately better. Why were they not found?

[zeffrin]

You could've delivered similar points without drawing attention to the sexism aspect. Fact is, women will for at least a few more generations continue to be drawn to more social activities and men will focus on spacial skill games.

It's not just casting pretty girls get a soft break... and it's because of people like you actually. You talk about being mysognistic but then you talk about wishing to covet a woman and feel loved etc.

If this were face to face dialog I'd be able to take your age into account for this viewpoint, but I propose that you need to stop worrying about the bitches at highschool... they all go through that phase, and if you talk to women about it, just like the fighting a bullying can be difficult for boys, for girls it can be even worse... (own fault though, they backstab and gossip about each other, and then take offense when someone returns the favor.. meh)

So anyway, stop worrying about those teenagers, male and female teenagers are in a very interesting position of thinking they know enough about the world, not being an environment to show them otherwise and further educate about the world outside of your countries, current politically important topics which are being taught to you. (If you're currently a teen, try to just accept this as a point of view for now, and reconsider it in again when you're 30)

Once schools over and done with you'll be fine if you stop idiolising women... they're just human beings, they have some physilogical and psychological differences but actually they're more afraid of you than you are of them.

Women taking part in SC2 is great.. why? It's not because they could reach like Code S levels of play, but it's because they come bred with the tools we need to build real communities and stuff.

Now, you talk of the time back when no girls used computers or play games, but I doubt you're old enough to remember it. I do. It was so hard to find stuff back then, you had to know a nerd who knew a nerd and let's face it, we nerds didn't know many other nerds. (this is before and during early stages of internet im talking about for you youngins)

Nowadays if you know a nerd girl, you're probably connected by one link to hundreds of other nerds.. and since those girls know many other girls, you're connected by 4th degree to thousands of other nerds.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

I couldn't say it better

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Women taking part in SC2 is great.. why? It's not because they could reach like Code S levels of play, but it's because they come bred with the tools we need to build real communities and stuff.

You can't reach code S levels of play, at least I come with tools needed to build a real community.. and stuff.

Get out.

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	lol
	FaDeHellfyre:	owned zeffrin. owned.

[inFeZa]

Some girls are amazing in the community, and those ones who are aren't really commented on for being a girl, its because what they do is beneficial to eSports, and that's awesome.

[Meatex]

in any community that is wanting for women you will see women get attention just for that
so because of that us skeptics assume they only get attention for their... assets
But would it not be best to save judgment to see whether they work to grow their skill and abilities or try to brush valid criticisms off with a bat of the lashes

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

o jeeeeeeeez the one thing i liked about this forum was that THIS discussion was not everywhere.

Quick Comments

deL:

boobies

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

Some girls are amazing in the community, and those ones who are aren't really commented on for being a girl, its because what they do is beneficial to eSports, and that's awesome.

Girls like Benji

Quick Comments

x5_Potter:

I may be reading this wrong, but you just roflpwned. Well played.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

Girls like Benji

I wish, god.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

lol

[Ruscour]

This isn't a physical sport, there is nothing stopping a female that works hard enough from being the greatest player in the world. The problem is that the community is so dominated by ludicrously beta 'nergins' that either a) instantly jizz at a female on an eSports stream or b) is so sexually frustrated that they consider themselves better than women and never take them seriously.

Should women be disallowed from eSports? Obviously not. Should there ever be major female-only events? Obviously not, serious money/exposure should go to the best of the best. I liken female tournaments to Bronze/Silver/Golds, they're there to give groups some competition that they don't otherwise get to experience.

So pretty simply, my view is for equality. Females should be treated equally, not too low because they're female and not too high because they make the wang of 14 year olds hit their desk. Ultimately the discussion is interesting but in the end it's pointless because the demographic of the eSports audience is so male-dominated that it will always be one way or the other, or at least for a pretty long time.

I know your post was primarily to do with community members rather than players, kinda just chiming in my own point for whatever reason.

[Imperial]

Tbh i've never heard of or seen for myself any female contribute to the scene and generally dislike them because often they make it clear they are a female so male players will fawn over them, they are only good for trolling because they take everything seriously. If somebody could give me an example of a woman doing something good for e-sports that would be great. I've never done anything for e-sports though so i guess my opinion doesn't have much merit. quick destroy the non existant reputation i possess

[crAzerk]

I eagerly clicked on the controversial-sounding topic to see what you had written, but the wall-of-text-ness greatly discouraged me from continuing I am being picky here, but is it possible if you paragraphed it abit more and maybe use some sub-headings? Would make it ALOT more readable.

Probably is a great write-up given the comments so far, but would love if you formatted it abit

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	My thoughts exactly
	mGGDaedalus:	I couldn't make it through either

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

You can't reach code S levels of play, at least I come with tools needed to build a real community.. and stuff.

Get out.

I think that zeffrin was saying that girls don't need to have some code S representative to be respected as players.

Top players girls are less frequent than top players guys because there are less girls playing that game, that's all. Luaway (spelling ?), the Storm girl is a hell of a player for example and there are others.

@kez, as zeffrin says, your image and sentiments of women are very "young" (I mean not yet matured) and ambivalent.

Of course sometimes women are chosen more easily to present events or make interview. But that's because us nerd like to hear feminine voice (Zepph voice ... ) or seeing them in that gaming context (Anna) etc.

Even Tastless, Artosis comments are not that great technically, there are better out there, but they are amazing animators and that's what make their success. That's also why Frogmite is the best commentator of SEA (just friendly trolling Benji ), because he has amazing energy in his casts. The same with women, they give us "feminine" and smooth presence when casting that are great.

Bee and Duck are already quite good, dedicated casters, and I'm happy that they were given the chance to go on a bigger stage. Those people who trashed them on the chat were really bad to act like that.

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I eagerly clicked on the controversial-sounding topic to see what you had written, but the wall-of-text-ness greatly discouraged me from continuing I am being picky here, but is it possible if you paragraphed it abit more and maybe use some sub-headings? Would make it ALOT more readable.

Probably is a great write-up given the comments so far, but would love if you formatted it abit

I agree that a wall of text is horrible to read, but that doesn't mean you should avoid it.
Good read, and good post. I enjoyed it

[crAzerk]

That's also why Frogmite is the best commentator of SEA

I second that He's one of my favourites for sure. He's just dripping with passion even after casting for 10 hours or something! Il est tres bien!

Originally Posted by System

I agree that a wall of text is horrible to read, but that doesn't mean you should avoid it.

Not exactly 'avoiding' it, just.. putting it off till I have to? Lol. I guess that's avoiding as well. Oh well. Just encouraging better formatting for all our eyes

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I think that zeffrin was saying that girls don't need to have some code S representative to be respected as players.

Which is pretty silly


Luaway is really consistent, she pwns.

[zeffrin]

Uhhh yeah, I wasn't saying girls couldn't make Code S... but in general maybe less likely. Ratio of male to female plays a part, but, being spacially aware of the whole map is super important and then there's pattern recognition and all decisions require logic over emotion.

But saying all men possess these skills in greater quantities than all women is definately incorrect, and far too black and white.

Sorry for confusion ZergGirl... and also, by community building Im not talking about anything except the fact that women have far superior communication related skills, empathy and also, a little bit more of a desire to be included in groups than men.

For what it's worth, there was a girl in SlayerS who almost qualified for Code A... or did she get in?

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

Which is pretty silly


Luaway is really consistent, she pwns.

This is confusing... are you saying we should wait until a female makes Code S before we start respecting female gamers? lol...

[Highlander]

Want to hear something interesting.

I GOT ME SOME STATS!!! 1st hand stats!!

Firstly, I got me a YouTube channel.

On said YouTube channel (before I decided to rip some BlizzCon crap on there) my viewership was 100% male (they've diversified a little since I got more scale but all this continues to hold true).

Last video I made before BlizzCon, I decided to include Mrs Highlander (just because I really enjoyed it and wanted to include her). It's here:

You Tube

You Tube

The difference between attention paid by viewers is MARKEDLY noticable when Mrs Highlander talks. We alternate talking and the 'worm' looks like a sine curve that matches.

The Insight stats show how much of each section people actually watch, so if they tune out of the video they drop and if they rewatch sections it goes up. Being dedicated to improving my channel I pay attention to this and was really suprised the difference she makes.

People know she's married, you don't get to see her, she doesn't say anything mind blowing, but whilst I've little doubt she sounds better than I, the difference is really strong.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Zanderax]

I really don't see where this is coming from.
Girls may get token spots but there are hundreds of other events and casting to live on and maybe some people like their work.

I myself hate the GSL casters and think that they should be replaced with Jeff and Adam from LAGTV but that doesn't mean I'll say Tasteless and Artosis didn't work to be there.

Just chill mate and realize that not everything has to be the way you like it.

[SLCN.Kez]

Alright, to answer a few things! I'm currently 20 (bout to turn 21) sooo im not sure if that supports your views of my maturity or helps give a bit of body to my own views on the gaming world and such. Really i posted this article because i thought it might be some good food for thought and to show some concerns i have about problems that can arise through such events like Bee and duck today where you cant deny the community thought they did a terrible job. Now, where i dont think YOU guys understand me is im saying it is a great thing that girls are in e-sports and i dont have a problem with it, as long as they get there for the right reason just like everybody else, and that i also show that you cant deny the success and extra viewership/fans that you do get from having girls in the community eg anna/rachael. You guys having all this massive views (which is fine obv) and discrediting some of what i say is also partly the reason why i wrote this article, because i think people jump to their defense WAY to quickly purely because they are girls, which is not right. I think you need to take into consideration all factors, which is why in this article i simply didnt write "girls get all these easy spots lets hate them" but i also listed some factors into why the hate for girls in e-sports might come in the first place. Furthermore, I didnt really have any problems with girls/guys at school, but a few of my friends did and i knew it greatly effected them, as im sure it does many others. As for the wall of text, i was aware of it and i was trying to break up the paragraphs a bit here n there, but tbh im to noob i didnt know how to create borders or headings or any of that stuff and was to busy in rant mode lol. (note, i cbf doing the same thing to this probable wall of text ahah). I was going to bring up the point about the slayers chick, afaik (no idea if this is/was true) she was only diamond on the KR server, which means she is obv good, but not great or near pro level, now weather or not she got the spot on slayers is because shes a girl, who knows, maybe. But i dont think that is here or there to discuss it right now.
But yeah!!! I hope you enjoyed what i wrote anyway and took what i had to say with some space from all the generalistic ideas and look at it in a objective point of view as i have tried to do, perhaps there was once or twice where the ranting took over, but i did try to justify it and i think i also did a pretty ok job and i hope people learned something. those were just some of my views and concerns, i dont hate women, i do this out of love for e-sports because i truly want to see it grow, also, the pacific qualifiers had far worse problems than the casters as well just putting it out there.

P.S sorry for bringing this discussion to the forum >.<

[crAzerk]

but tbh im to noob i didnt know how to create borders or headings or any of that stuff

Just press enter for paragraphs, and click on the 'B' for bold for headings, etc. If you use any word processor like Microsoft Word it should be already intuitive, without having to actually type any BB Code.

[SLCN.Kez]

I did! theres a space in there somewhere i swear..... nah i think it looks so wall-ish because on a forum it doesnt go as wide. On word it looks fine and not very wallish.
will try the bold headings and such next post

[Zepph]

When you say "it is undeniable that some women get special treatment in the e-sports scene purely because they are women" I agree with you but only to a point. I think yes, you're right, sex does sell and having a pretty girl talking about something e-sports related will of course bring in those extra views and hold more people's attention (whether it be for the words coming out of their mouth or otherwise). On the other hand however, I feel that this special treatment is rather short-lived. Let's look at GSL casters for example.

Inevitably all casters will forever be compared to people like Tastosis and Day9. Casters like Moletrap,Wold and DoA copped a lot of crap when they started out, when in my opinion they're weren't bad at all. Perhaps their game knowledge isn't on the same level as someone else's or their jokes don't work as well, but they act professionally, give it their best and strive to improve because they obviously enjoy what they are doing. Now I feel they have indeed improved and as a result they are still frequently casting code A.

When Kelly got the job casting for Gom, she also got a lot of the same criticism as these other new casters. The only real difference being that people attacked her over her accent and of course gender as well. I'm not sure of Gom's reasons for hiring Kelly whether it was based on her casting skills or indeed the idea of just having a female on the show like the Korean stream often does. Either way, she is no longer casting a big events like GSL regularly. So it's not like being female gave her much more than a bit more publicity.

Basically what I'm saying is although a female may be hired on the basis of gender, if they aren't very well liked and aren't fit for the job then they won't be getting that special treatment you mentioned for long. If a tournament keeps bringing a bad caster back (female or otherwise), it's going to end up hurting the amount of viewers they get so it's in their best interest to replace them with someone better.

That said, there's nothing wrong with giving females a go in the e-sports scene. How can we expect better quality female casters if we don't give them a chance? It's definitely bad to put any inexperienced caster in a position where they will be casting for perhaps thousands of viewers, because like you said, it hurts the overall quality of the event. So if a company wants a female for the sake of having a female, I feel that they should be digging deeper into smaller communities similar to our own and finding out who people enjoy and who's had the best experience to avoid this problem. Everyone has to start somewhere, so I think to integrate females into the e-sports scene more easily, they just need to choose more wisely.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	"Choose more wisely", who could it be ? :D
	zeffrin:	yeah, totally what this guy said

[SLCN.Kez]

Couldnt agree with you more. wish id thought of that ahha

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Zepph

So if a company wants a female for the sake of having a female, I feel that they should be digging deeper into smaller communities similar to our own and finding out who people enjoy and who's had the best experience to avoid this problem. Everyone has to start somewhere, so I think to integrate females into the e-sports scene more easily, they just need to choose more wisely.

I was happy Bee and Duck were given the chance in a bigger stage and they did not bad considering the situation.
They need to be less nervous and stay away of the "Oh my god" type of thing, be more technical in the beginning to assess their casting.

[crAzerk]

I just have to say this everytime I see a comment about it, just to defend my fellow singaporeans:

The only real difference being that people attacked her over her accent and of course gender as well.

There's a difference between poor pronunciation and having an accent. The real problem for her was the former, not the latter.

Anyway, that's besides the discussion but i just had to say it. Still waiting (and hoping) for an OP edit though.

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	agreed... singaporean accent is actually kind of pleasant
	Zepph:	yeah (: you're right, could have phrased that better. ^.^

[|Erasmus|]

The main things I got out of this article:

1. You think all gamers hate girls because we were made fun of by girls we were sexually attracted to in highschool.

2. You hate girls because they get good casting jobs cause they have tits and will draw in viewers.

I feel like you've extrapolated backwards from 1, assuming that everyone feels the same and constructed some ridiculous reason for it based on your own experiences, which frankly, some of us don't share. Some of my best friends in high school were girls, and I wasn't even a big video gamer then. In fact, I mostly played the -far- more nerdy Magic: The Gathering. And I was open about it... I would go play in the library during lunch times some of the time.

And as for girls getting these jobs without working for them... Seltzer has been posting her videos of player interviews on TL for many months. She's really quite good at them. I honestly don't really know the names of any guys who do that regularly. So good on her for finding that niche and marketing it and getting herself a ******* sweet gig with IPL. And if you do want to make that claim, you should have some facts backing it up. I'm sure some of those girls do more work than you actually think they do.

I really can't see anything worthwhile to read in this article, personally...

Quick Comments

zeffrin:

another good point, females do make better interviewers, prob other things I mention help

[Zepph]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I was happy Bee and Duck were given the chance in a bigger stage and they did not bad considering the situation.
They need to be less nervous and stay away of the "Oh my god" type of thing, be more technical in the beginning to assess their casting.

Yeah I agree, it's great to give anyone a chance. Maybe it didn't work out as well as people had hoped but they can only improve from the experience.

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

Until you get constantly harrassed, stalked and treated like shit. Like you would have ANY idea what it is like to be female and part of this community benji.

Quick Comments

	Benji:	terrible arguement
	iM yang:
	syfChadMann:	"terrible arguement" is a terrible response.
	FaDeBadger:

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by TARogue

Until you get constantly harrassed, stalked and treated like shit. Like you would have ANY idea what it is like to be female and part of this community benji.

There's definately disadvantages being a female in a community with not enough to go around... but I'm surprised anyone would doubt that women in general have an easier time through life.

People have an instinct to distrust strange men (probably warranted over thousands of years) whereas men usually have an instinct to protect women and therefore are given trust more easily.

Not discrediting the effect of being harassed by weirdos constantly, as I totally agree that part of being female would suck... but there's always the option of not putting yourself in situations where you know there is going to be a ratio of 100:1 men to women if you don't want them all climbing over each other for your attention.

I know personally, I'm married now and I've never really been long between girlfriends through my 20's yet still... when I was at EB Expo, I found myself unable to look away from a few of the cosplay girls and the dancers. Meant absolutely no offense, and didn't even have a desire to talk to them or anything but yeah, definately something deep inside draws me toward the women.

Also anecdotably, feminine voice just sounds so nice to us... I believe there was some research which indicates a reason for this, based around the reason women don't develop much deeper voices is because keeping the pitch of childen (though it does change of course) continues to inspire protective instincts in men.. and I dunno for certain but my conclusion is that for the same reason, Men _LOVE_ the sound of women, talking will get attention, moaning will immediately turn men on and the crescendo after that is enough to make a guy dump his productive fluids..

Whee, fun topic... I think it's important to say as well, this doesn't need to be an us vs them women vs men thing. It's an education thing... we need the nerds to feel more comfortable around women so more women will come... once there's sufficient gamer women for gamer blokes then all of this is going to go away... like it pretty much has in carshow industry and stuff nowadays. (A lot of car blokes find chicks into cars super sexy, and why not right, and now it's ok for girls to be into cars there's a balance which is happy)

Also diverging into the car topic for the moment... in that scene it has been accepted that men are interested in power and speed while women are more drawn toward asthetics and comfort... but it's symbiotic... bloke gets a blown v8 with a mandrel exhaust and is happy, but then because from his community he learns the women want nice seats and sound system lower road noise etc, so he puts on a better highperformance muffler and gets the interior trimed, installs a decent stereo.

Between the two differing goals one thing can become better than either side could have made it on their own... and our community will be the same.

[Malik]

u cant brew v u can swirl it though

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Not discrediting the effect of being harassed by weirdos constantly, as I totally agree that part of being female would suck... but there's always the option of not putting yourself in situations where you know there is going to be a ratio of 100:1 men to women if you don't want them all climbing over each other for your attention.

... So you're saying women shouldn't be in any esports scene?

Quick Comments

zeffrin:

I'm saying they shouldn't turn up at events if they're going to complain about it being a sausage party

[SLCN.Kez]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

The main things I got out of this article:

1. You think all gamers hate girls because we were made fun of by girls we were sexually attracted to in highschool.

2. You hate girls because they get good casting jobs cause they have tits and will draw in viewers.

I feel like you've extrapolated backwards from 1, assuming that everyone feels the same and constructed some ridiculous reason for it based on your own experiences, which frankly, some of us don't share. Some of my best friends in high school were girls, and I wasn't even a big video gamer then. In fact, I mostly played the -far- more nerdy Magic: The Gathering. And I was open about it... I would go play in the library during lunch times some of the time.

And as for girls getting these jobs without working for them... Seltzer has been posting her videos of player interviews on TL for many months. She's really quite good at them. I honestly don't really know the names of any guys who do that regularly. So good on her for finding that niche and marketing it and getting herself a ******* sweet gig with IPL. And if you do want to make that claim, you should have some facts backing it up. I'm sure some of those girls do more work than you actually think they do.

I really can't see anything worthwhile to read in this article, personally...

You really misread it everything i have posted havent you...?
im saying that could be a reason as to why theres animosity, not OMFG EVERY GAMER HATES GIRLS BECAUSE OF THIS<<<<>>>. re read the article, have an open mind, and dont be stupid. k go

[syfChadMann]

I don't understand why this thread is still open?..

Women and Men are equal in the western would. Why not in the E-stern world?..

The suggestion from Benji that women get in easier and are noticed more because of gender is because this 'industry' doesn't accept women (at its core - and it should) and when a women does something worthy its such a surprise that they did, like 'omg that cast is half decent - and a women.. wtf' whereas if it was a man it would be 'meh.. some dude trying to cast lol'...

So while it seems like they have it 'easier' its because stereotyping and gender inequality has developed such low expectations of 'girl gamers'... What you said Benji is like saying "Geesh - the Jews got it easy being given a country after WW2'.... well, no - not really but Female gamers get alot of flack just for being girls...

Lets cheer for a female compatriots and try and build the scene together!! dick or no dick.
- and I don't think much else needs to be said about this thread.. its a joke.. until people work together and over look gender, people will continue to waste time writing in threads like this.

EDIT - The only problem I see with eSports atm is its filled with dumb, socially awkward teenagers that can't handle talking to girls and get uncomfortable when they see one in the male dominated online sanctum.

Quick Comments

	VoxMSI.Rogue:
	Benji:	I do not agree
	FaDeBadger:
	deL:	I do agree, Benji sounds bitter about his lack of casting success and is looking for excuses
	Zepph:	well said sir

[zeffrin]

Further to my response to Maynarde.... I don't go to tupperware parties, baby showers, or any other event when I know there's going to be more women than men... and I think a lot of blokes feel the same.

Why is that? Because when they outnumber us like that they don't bother filtering their thoughts on their husbands etc, women in groups if you listen in can actually be far more judgemental and offensive of men than I hear (many) men talking of women

Quick Comments

	Kalikah:	...just wow
	deL:	are you 12?
	TAEdgE:	you're retarded
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	jesus christ mate, i hope no woman ever goes near you, you piece of shit
	TAriiChard:	.

[NvPinder]

Just want everyone to know that in the sc2sea chatbox we've come to an agreement that, while vaginas are not at all attractive to look at, women do have a place in esports.

Quick Comments

	TABjornbrandr:
	deL:	some are nice

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Further to my response to Maynarde.... I don't go to tupperware parties, baby showers, or any other event when I know there's going to be more women than men... and I think a lot of blokes feel the same.

Why is that? Because when they outnumber us like that they don't bother filtering their thoughts on their husbands etc, women in groups if you listen in can actually be far more judgemental and offensive of men than I hear (many) men talking of women

LOL - So women should stick to their domain?.. Tupperware parties, baby shows and the kitchen?
are you serious?

Buddy, you (and most of us) don't go to tupperware parties and baby showers because there not our interests.. but the interest of middle aged women. If a young woman wants to be involved in esports or go to gamer events or what ever - you can't just say - "no sorry miss, but you have to go to the tupperware and baby showers.. this is for men only" Women get shit tupperware - so the men claim games. sigh, are you seriously that sexist? Is this the 50s?

Just use your head for two seconds... esports and gaming is about PERSONAL INTEREST and believe it or not (this might be far fetched for you to understand) but some women actually like esports and gaming. So who the **** are you to deny them that interest? just because they haven't got a penis?!

tbh - this whole discussion is extremely sexist and retarded. You need to realise that women are as equal to you in their likes and dislikes and that they should have the same privilege of doing things they enjoy.

Move on with the modern world, accept people for what ever gender, race or creed... and just grow up.
This thread is offensive and should be closed. Filled with narrow minded comments.. doesn't do anything positive to the industry or scene.

EDIT - In addition, I just noticed Benji's "I do not Agree" -rep comment on my post. Explain yourself bro... what do you not agree with.. don't just hide behind your rep and stature and say "you don't agree"... What isn't there to agree with?.. Women have a hard time in this scene.. We need to celebrate their accomplishments in the industry because of the negativity thats thrown at them every day... they find it hard to continue.. because of sexism like this... and it becomes easier for women just to give up..

Construct a feasible response to my comment. grow up. accept women. don't blame them because you have a hard time and have to work hard in the scene - comments like that will just make it harder for you, in this scene.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	agreed, people have been banned for less in the past
	Kalikah:	tupperware parties are crap anyway

[TABjornbrandr]

Well just for my own input here, I've actually played against CheekyDuck on ladder (beat her there and in a few customs :P) and considering our level of play naturally there were mistakes on both our behalves etc etc, but at the end she said something along the lines of "Dammit, I shouldn't insert mistake here and I might've won." and then a little later on something along the lines of "Imagine how you'd feel if you'd lost to a girl."
Up until that point I didn't even know she was a girl, had never heard of her before that and the only thing remotely indicative of it was her saying "Hfgl ♥".
I just said what I thought, essentially "I don't see why it'd matter if you're a boy or a girl, there's plenty of gamer girls."
She was genuinely surprised that I was so indifferent to the gender of who I'm playing. To me it's just common sense, sometimes you just have to forget who your opponent is and just play the game. It's exactly the same as in work, forget that your boss is a woman and just recognise that they're your boss. Doesn't mean you have to try to sway her over simply because she's female or feel belittled because you're working for a woman. It's what they are that matters, not who they are.

Finally, I think that Benji may have been a little misinterpreted. If I may say so, I'd be more inclined to think that Benji meant that a lot of viewers who watch female casters initially do it because they're female and they find them attractive. Sure, that sounds fine to me. Same reason that a lot of people watch cheerleaders because they're female and attractive. The gamer demographic happens to be predominantly males with a huge number of teenage males and as such, there are a number of brainless males who like watching a mouth that comes with a pair of breasts.
However, I'd be inclined to think that the viewers who watch someone solely because they have tits aren't supportive and just do it for their own... pleasure. So I don't know whether or not people are more inclined to support female casters, but they may be more inclined to listen a little longer because of their gender.
In the end, no matter how attractive a female is, if they're hopeless at what they do they'll only end up with the truly unintelligent watching them, something that won't get them anywhere in the eSports scene.

[zeffrin]

ChadMann, you are overly sensitive.

But anyway, I do agree there's probably little else to add to this topic of real value.

But for what it's worth I'm not saying they shouldn't take part.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

I'm just going to say 1 thing, and that is women get it a million times easier to do anything in the scene.

When a girl first gets noticed as a girl, everyone wants to be their friend, they get a bunch of contacts with important people in the community, simply for being a female, where a male in the same situation needs to work hard and prove themselves over a long period of time.

They also get alot more attention in whatever they do, if they become casters (which most do as I am yet to see a female in SEA that is capable of competing at a high level) they instantly get more viewers than their male equivalent. If they are an average caster, its completely fine and they still get a bunch of attention where the male equiv will disappear or need to work hard to improve their skills.

It may sound harsh, but being a female online is a thousand times easier than being a male.

This is so true. Just try acting like a girl in WoW (I know someone who did LOL - he got his gf to talk to them on skype, etc) you will level up the fastest you have in your life and any gear that drops will be force fed to you even though you can't even use it.

There is a difference in standards but its because of the girl / guy ratio NOT because of the persons actual gender. Anything that is scarce in quantity becomes more valuable thats how the world works. If there were equal number of female/male WoW players, or female/male sc2 players, this would never happen and girls will be treated just like how the males are but for now girls bring a breath of fresh air thats why they are so in demand. Still hoping a female day9 would suddenly appear in this world, that would be sick.

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

This is confusing... are you saying we should wait until a female makes Code S before we start respecting female gamers? lol...

Maybe not Code S, but we'll settle for doing something that requires some serious time/effort to be invested on their part.

I like Luaway. Does that mean I like all 'female gamers'? Neg.

*not directed at zeffrin*
I made friends much faster on my male smurf, nicer ones too :P
even offrace so it's not like its 'YOU SO GOOD I BE UR FRIEND'.

I dunno, I agree with Zeph a bit. The initial attention is what is truly different (imo).. but if said girl is a wetblanket people wont keep coming back.

At the end of the day, don't encourage TEEHEE and all will be well.

[Mayo]

I would say some of Benji's points are true, but I disagree with a few (that I will outline).

When a girl first gets noticed as a girl, everyone wants to be their friend, they get a bunch of contacts with important people in the community, simply for being a female

This isn't such a good thing, a lot of it is guys asking for pictures of their breasts and begging them to play games with them online.

It may sound harsh, but being a female online is a thousand times easier than being a male.

Disagree. My mrs plays games and I have a few Female gaming friends, it's 100% harder. Sure people on the forums respect them sometimes, but lets take CS:S for example.
There is a Female team in that - Voxe Female. Most scrims I see people are calling them names, saying they are shit because they are girls, trying to add them to STEAM for webcam sex etc.

My Mrs is also a girl gamer, I had a mate I played BF2 with for 2 years, she ended up in his clan and they talked every day etc. Then after 6 months he confesses his love and obsession with her on Team speak (talk about awkward), I then deleted him and ignored him for 4 months.

Some of the treatment girl gamers get is down right horrendous and I think it's a lot due to the fact that sponsors/companies/organisations/people play on the whole female thing.
Get a mediocre Female caster etc and pin them up on a billboard = >9001 instant viewers and sales.

Tis a shame
I did just read in the latest PC and Tech Authority Magazine that apparently 47% of gamers in Australia are female though.

(Note: The Voxe Fem girls handle it all pretty well tbh, they practice hard and earn their placings which is good)

@Nivarna and the WoW thing - http://www.cybergamer.com.au/forums/...te-COD-eGirls/
"Girl" called Kaylee fooled everyone for a year or so. Got nudes from guys and everything LOL

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	This.
	Maynarde:	Agreed
	deL:	Mayo you are a gentleman and a scholar
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh boy
	Zepph:	This indeed.
	TADivinity:	Yeah well done

[syfChadMann]

Yeah but saying women get easy doesn't consider the whole situation.
Women gamers get no respect.. no one ever thinks they are going to be good - because they are female.
The often get harassed (sexually - or just trashed for being a girl)
They try to be involved in this male orientated world, but are told to go back to their Tupperware parties.
And much much more BS that they have to deal with

So when a Girl gamer gets this kind of treatment - day in, day out... and then they turn around and say, Ya'know what.. I'm going to give back to the community and cast matches or try and be a decent gamer they deserve to be celebrated. They have to deal with so much more shit than male gamers.. and when they can have the maturity to still work hard for this scene I think it shows so much more character than some second rate Male gamer turning their hand at casting...

I know I'm probably being 'overly sensitive' but I personally, want to see eSports as a legitimate sport and industry.. and this kind of shit is just slowing that down and is totally retarded.

[syfMiley]

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread.

(The Chad remains great!)

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	ChadMann is retarted
	deL:	ChadMann is a gentleman and a scholar

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

MiLes, you gonna make me re-read the entire thread again?

[TAPelican]

Being a female online, and especially in such a male-driven community, is certainly not easier. But it is easier for mediocre casters and the like to draw larger amounts of views and interest if they are female.

I do take objection to benji's thoughtless cop-out argument simply because of the underlying sexist and jealous tones. The only 'semi-true' point he makes is that female casters can draw larger viewer counts, but I don't really see why this is actually an issue like he makes it out to be. His post is largely a sexist rant and I don't think it should be condoned given the context of the discussion.

It is a huge up-hill battle for females to gain any respect like chadmann points out. At times, the general attitude is akin to a female rocking up to a AFL (thats aussie rules football for the uneducated) club and being laughed at and told she can sit on the sidelines and wash the jerseys, but shes not fit to touch the ball.

I thoroughly agree with Chad's assertions that women who put in the time and effort, braving the creepers/stalkers/haters and invest their time and effort in such a masochistic community that they should be celebrated, not looked at with jealousy or envy because they can pull viewers.

As a caster you need something that is going to set you apart from the crowd in order to attract a viewerbase, and being actually good at the game, or casting, commentating or production will set you out from the crowd just as much if not more so than being female.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	This guy knows whats up.
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	<3

[Kalikah]

Without getting too far into the debate, as someone on the other side of the counter (a female employee of a large video game retailer) and also a casual games enthusiast, I'd like to make a couple of general comments coming from my own experience.

First off, there are less women in games because the games are not marketed towards them - everyone knows that the main market for games = males 16-40. I myself had no interest in Starcraft whatsoever until Maynarde convinced me to try the beta, I'm just not that into sci-fi space themed stuff. Obviously after playing the game realised how awesome it is and what a huge community is involved. The amount of women going into a store or picking a 'male' oriented game is slowly rising, but the whole point I'm trying to make is that there are going to be less women playing and even less going on to play professionally and become a part of that elite E-Sports niche.

As a female working in an environment dominated by males I am frequently discriminated against, since I'm a lady, there's no way I'd know a thing about games right? Well the truth is, that after 7 years, you'd f***ing well hope so. I have dudes who end up on my side of the counter asking me a question, (which I answer correctly) and 20 seconds later, asking my male colleague the same question, who then gives exactly the same answer. You could imagine how frustrating it can be at times. What I don't understand is where this attitude comes from.

But everyone deserves a go, and whether you think they've earned their spot, perhaps having a female team member/caster/whatever is also a strategy to include women and give them something to relate to. If E-Sports continues to be a sausage fest, then where do females in general fit in? Women can offer a different perspective and add a new dynamic, and most importantly, add viewership and participation. The more women coming through, the higher calibre their work/results with more competition.

The question is, if these women were dudes, would you have even noticed or wondered or cared? Perhaps because they stand out they come under more critique and are a lot more noticeable within the industry.

Quick Comments

	Bugalugs McScruffin:	Great post.
	syfChadMann:	Well said.
	Maynarde:
	Zepph:
	nirvAnA:
	deL:	telling it like it is

[dippa]

something seems wrong about males arguing whether its easier to be a female gamer or not.

[Zepph]

I don't like people being nice to me, helping me or doing favours for me just because I'm a girl. I want to be liked, yeah, but preferably only if I've proved myself or earnt it first. If I could cast in a male voice, I would. I want people to like my casting because they learned something from it, they found it entertaining, or even just because I'm showing that I'm improving and making an effort to bring better quality commentary. Yet when I first started casting it was hard to come by constructive criticism even when I asked for it, as people were too preoccupied with being nice saying "I like your voice" or "I think you did fine (:" to say anything negative.

The same stands for when I played WoW. I agree with Nirvana's comment "you will level up the fastest you have in your life and any gear that drops will be force fed to you even though you can't even use it." My old server was pretty small and everyone knew everyone. Being a US server also, I eventually became known as "that aussie chick" (and not because I advertised myself that way). I had people insisting on doing me favours and talking to me incessantly for a piece of my attention and of course I had my fair share of creepers too. When I transferred to a server with a few of my real life friends on it, one of them admitted to me that he was skeptical of putting me in his raid group because he thought that being a female I would be bad at doing my job in boss fights.

To me this is largely put down to what ChadMann said - "no one ever thinks they are going to be good - because they are female." So when a girl does alright, people are in a sense pleasantly surprised and therefore are more inclined to treat them more nicely than someone else. Keep in mind though that I'm making a very broad generalization. I know not everyone bends over backwards for a female when they meet one in the gaming arena and many people could care less about someone's gender. I also accept that particularly in the starcraft 2 community, the few females that people do know about haven't always made the best impressions so some of these opinions come from that too.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:
	Kalikah:
	deL:	they're nice to you cos you're a colombian drug lord

[syfMiley]

Beta keys for all!

Quick Comments

	Bugalugs McScruffin:	Where do I get my beta keys?
	Nemo:	lol

[SLCN.Kez]

I don't think I pointed this out but I feel as I should. I never said I have a problem with girls playing games, Ive played with/against many girls in WoW, CS, Dota, every e-sports game you name it, I've played with girls. I wouldn't say they are any better/worse than guys, how good they are is just how good they are.

Also, I have no qualms with girls who have worked hard to get where they are in the community or onto a team if they are good enough to be there, ie. my view on kellie. I dont think people (I hope not) are calling me sexist, but are rather saying all the views of the thread are.

In regards to the female opinion on gaming, I think that since it is so male dominated, guys will trust guys opinion more, I dont think its particularly right, but you cant deny it. Would a girl not get a second opinion on something that is female orientated when her initial source was from a male. It might be an exaggeration but I think if the situation was reversed you could see my point.

The reason I went to all the effort for pointing this out is because I so strongly believe that men and women are equal, and to see this is kind of saddening, as it so obviously points out the differences. It would be stupid to think a male commentator for netball would all these extra opportunities because he is a male in a womans game, so I dont see the reason why we should do it in our game, but I guess woman wouldt focus so much sexual attention on the male caster like the guys do to the girls in e-sports, which makes me quote myself in the opening post saying "It is obviously not the girls fault that there are so many problems at the moment with girls in the spotlight at televised e-sports events."

This thread got way off topic I believe since people started talking about girls gaming in general. The opinion girls get it easier/are worse etc in just playing a game is entirely retarded. My only issue came from when girls get special treatment in professional e-sports (ie casting, teams etc) purely because they are female and it will helps sales/viewship, irrespective of their talent. If they have the skill and expertise to be there, I'm all for it and will support them 100%.

I do agree it obviously takes time for someone to become a better caster and that sometimes these women are genuinely trying to get better, and after initially not doing so well they can become good and stay in the scene. People might say that it is fair they CAN get preferential treatment in e-sports because they are women because of all the extra creepy shit they have to deal with, and to some extent I do believe this is true, however, I also think people forget how much hate male casters get for whatever reason, and whilst sexist hate might be more hurtful than regular hate, I don't think the 2 are that dissimilar and warrant preferential treatment, but I could be wrong, Ive never been a girl in e-sports.

This will probably be my last post in this thread, Ive had my say, people have had theirs, there will always be disagreement among the parties, I just hope people got something useful out of it. I know i certainly have with how shit some girls can be treated and that really sucks, so the more power to ya for playing the game!

[zeffrin]

Personally I laugh at dudes who play netball, heh

Quick Comments

deL:

I laugh at retards who try to post funny comments

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Personally I laugh at dudes who play netball, heh

I played mixed netball for a year, got something to say about man-ball?

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

I played mixed netball for a year, got something to say about man-ball?

Man, the mixed netball comps in primary school were baller...

[Mayo]

Mixed netball is farking fun as.

Why do I need to pound a guys arse into the dirt (rugby) to be considered manly? :P

[ROOT`iaguz]

Goddamn if I'd known this would be the kind of attempts people would do I'd slap together some stupid Axe jokes and collect my key.

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

You have my sword!

[zeffrin]

Yah, I'm still laughing

Netball is fine if you find throwing and catching so difficult as to not be able to do it in motion

[syfMiley]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Yah, I'm still laughing

Netball is fine if you find throwing and catching so difficult as to not be able to do it in motion

All that stutter stepping really messes with your knees after years of playing.

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by TAMiLes

All that stutter stepping really messes with your knees after years of playing.

This I don't doubt, actually the sudden stopping constantly would be quite jarring on the joints

Netball injuries are no joke, this I know... ankles really cop it in that game.

But I still say it's a game designed for people who find throwing and catching too difficult to perform in flight

[crAzerk]

Not taking any sides here but just offering some explanation from a Psych student's perspective (I love to discuss Psych stuff )

The Psychology Part
There is this thing in Psychology we learn called 'confirmation bias'. What this means is that it is human nature to seek out information that is in line with our beliefs, and ignore information that contradicts it.

The stereotype that exists is of course - 'females are bad at gaming' or some variation of this statement, whether in meaning or phrasing. This is the belief that many people have.

Thus when males encounter a female gamer who IS bad, he's going to naturally think 'I knew it' or 'yea she's a girl' or something along those lines. It reinforces his stereotype. It's reassuring to think that. It makes him feel at ease.

But when he encounters a female gamer who is GOOD, he is going to be like 'wait what? no way', and this contradiction to his belief is going to cause some amount of cognitive dissonance (in laymen's terms, make his mind uneasy).
He may then proceed to make misattributions such as 'She must have been lucky' or 'I am tired, that's why I lost', (which are called fundamental attribution errors) where he credits the success of the girl to situational factors(she got lucky) rather than personal factors (she is good)

These attributions help to ease the cognitive dissonance in him and thus such 'evidence' just 'bounces' off him, and he ignores these. 'Girls are bad at gaming' remains a personal belief. The effect may even be strongly positive reinforcing - that it could be a matter of personal pride, that he is defending the age-old sexist myth that Male > Female.
His group identity as a Male induces him to want to defend this at all cost (according to social identity theory), and that includes making such attribution errors and holding on to such stereotypes.


Therefore , for the awesome female gamers out there being discriminated against, do forgive the male chauvinists, they are almost programmed to behave this way. This kind of discriminatory behaviour of course does not apply only for the gender issue, but for race issues, and even simple ingroup-outgroup matters (e.g. SC2 vs WoW players. For example, 'All WoW players have no skill so they play WoW instead of SC2' )

For the males who still have this sort of stereotypes ingrained in them - do try to actively suppress it, and approach each female gamer with an open mind.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:	wow! Interesting :)
	syfChadMann:	nice

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Not taking any sides here but just offering some explanation from a Psych student's perspective (I love to discuss Psych stuff )

**** yeah, the question is, eventually some stimuli must force the observer to reconsider their belief, what does it take to achieve that?

You talk about being beaten by girls straight up, but i'd say this might not be the case, well at least on the ladder if so we don't know. If the girls were out owning face as a regular occurance then this belief wouldn't have been able to form in the first place.

Being a psych student, are you prepared to also discuss the difference in brain development which occurs between male and females which ultimately leads to a difference in spacial skills?

And, from your more educated perspective, would you consider lower spacial skills a possible reason for women on average being less skilled in RTS and FPS games?

And in turn, would the greater communication skills women posses account for at least some of their greater success in MMO games?

Relevant points for discussion from http://www.medicaleducationonline.or...d=46&Itemid=69 below

(3) Cellular connections: while men have more neurons in the cerebral cortex, women have a more developed neuropil, or the space between cell bodies, which contains synapses, dendrites and axons, and allows for communication among neurons .

(4) Corpus callosum: it is reported that a woman's brain has a larger corpus collusum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemisphere faster than men. Men tend to be more left brained, while women have greater access to both sides.(however other studies have told a different story).

(6) Language: two areas in the frontal and temporal lobes related to language (the areas of Broca and Wernicke) were significantly larger in women, thus providing a biological reason for women's notorious superiority in language-associated thoughts. For men, language is most often just in the dominant hemisphere (usually the left side), but a larger number of women seem to be able to use both sides for language.

(7) Inferior parietal lobule (IPL): it is a brain region in the cortex, which is significantly larger in men than in women. This area is bilateral and is located just above the level of the ears (parietal cortex). Furthermore, the left side IPL is larger in men than the right side. In women, this asymmetry is reversed, although the difference between left and right sides is not so large as in men. This is the same area which was shown to be larger in the brain of Albert Einstein, as well as in other physicists and mathematicians. So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities. Studies have linked the right IPL with the memory involved in understanding and manipulating spatial relationships and the ability to sense relationships between body parts. It is also related to the perception of our own affects or feelings. The left IPL is involved with perception of time and speed, and the ability of mentally rotate 3-D figures .

(9) Limbic size: females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others .

[Starcraftmazter]

Eagerly waiting for tossgirl to switch to SC2 and own it up in the GSL.

Quick Comments

deL:

[crAzerk]

Actually, cognitive neuroscience or anything related to the brain is one of my most hated fields in Psychology =X Way too complicated and boring for me haha. But I do understand that it is an exciting new field that is very promising.

Nevertheless, since you've bothered to compose a reply, I am obliged to reciprocate.
Btw, it's 'spatial*' not spacial.

If the girls were out owning face as a regular occurance then this belief wouldn't have been able to form in the first place.

I'm not sure what you are arguing for or commenting about in this paragraph.

are you prepared to also discuss the difference in brain development which occurs between male and females which ultimately leads to a difference in spacial skills?.

I dare not pretend to be an expert regarding the neurological differences between males and females, because tbh I've forgotten most of the specifics (just took the module Biological Psych last semester )

However, from what I do recall, even though studies do show these subtle differences such as those that you've listed, others have also argued that these differences are not significant. For example, just roughly quoting a percentage (may be off) that I recall, when comparing certain spatial / mathematically abilities, while males are better than females (and vice versa) in some aspects, it was only 52-53% of the males who were better.


More importantly, in discussing any such neurological influences (e.g. females have xyz part of their brain larger than males, therefore they have abc ability better), it is a severe flaw to leave out environmental/social influences in the explanation.

To use a simple and well-known example, women are said to be more emotional than men, and some attempts have been made to tie it in to certain brain structure differences.
However, some obvious explanations that can be made for such behaviour is that societal norms do not condone a male being very emotional or expressive. Often, males who behave in such ways may even be ostracized or simply looked badly upon.
Thus, it could be due to societal influences that cause this observed gender difference in emotional expression.


Therefore, I do not find it sufficient to merely discuss neurological differences to explain any gender differences.

And, from your more educated than me but still learning perspective, would you consider higher spacial skills a possible reason for women on average being less skilled in RTS and FPS games?

And in turn, would the greater communication skills women posses account for at least some of their greater success in MMO games?

There is a fundamental flaw in this whole argument, in trying to compare females vs males and trying to show if females are better gamers, etc. The flaw is this - how are you measuring it?
If there were two hypothesis:

1) Males are better than females at gaming
2) Males are not better than females at gaming
(a standard psych paradigm of hypothesis testing)

How do you prove that 1 is true? Is it when there are more males good at gaming than females? Is it when a male beats a female? Is it when the top male player beats a top female player? Is one female being a dominant gamer in her field sufficient to cause the hypothesis to be rejected?

The truth is there isn't really a way to make this comparison, and too many other confounds creep in. For instance, when you say females have some success in MMOs, but a significantly larger sample size of males playing games as compared to females naturally result in a larger volume of male gamers who are better than females, you can't really make any arguments due to these confounding variables.

You can't really support a hypothesis like this because it is not testable, and the only thing that people have ended up doing is making a generalization based on what they observe (which is obviously limited and not representative)

Quick Comments

	Kalikah:
	deL:

[zeffrin]

Great response, concede to most of your points except... if you want a practical example give a girl a street directory and ask her to navigate. If she turns the map chide her, if she's unable to determine left from right without turning the map she has limited spatial skills.

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

However I appreciate you're unwilling to take a hard stance on a complicated, and controversial topic...

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough... games is a huge range of things... are we talking about chess or word association?

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

genralisations - fail bro.

[crAzerk]

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

I'm not saying that there are no gender differences whatsoever. I'm saying that
- While there are some clear gender differences such as spatial perception, many of the purported differences are not significant (e.g. 2-3%)
- Even if these differences occur, does it necessarily tie back to neurological differences? I.e. Just because males perform better on the maps test, is it because their brains are wired to perform better in such tasks or are there other factors?

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

I suppose you mean fMRI, because MRIs are used to look at brain structure, not brain activity
I'm not too familiar with the body of research done with fMRIs and gender differences, so I can't comment on this.

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough

That is precisely my point. Those questions are all rhetorical in that paragraph.

[Maynarde]

I want this thread closed SO bad. Can't really do it without checking with people though, I'll get back to you all.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Great response, concede to most of your points except... if you want a practical example give a girl a street directory and ask her to navigate. If she turns the map chide her, if she's unable to determine left from right without turning the map she has limited spatial skills.

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

However I appreciate you're unwilling to take a hard stance on a complicated, and controversial topic...

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough... games is a huge range of things... are we talking about chess or word association?

What does any of this have to do with you saying - 'Girls don't belong in esports'

There is a place for them.. any other opinion is sexist discrimination.
Promoting the 1% of casters that happen to be girls and giving them more opportunities is simple positive discrimination....

Your argument started off with you saying that women are invading a male domain and your outraged by it... And that they should stick to their Tupperware parties and baby showers...

What have you got to say about such outrageous comments of pure sexism (naive about your discrimination or not).

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	You actually haven't read anything I wrote you?
	deL:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

I want this thread closed SO bad. Can't really do it without checking with people though, I'll get back to you all.

Close it - its retarded.

[Maynarde]

The Chad has spoken, and so have I.

Everyone join me in celebrating my first ever closed thread as a mod!

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	THANK YOU
	ToRPandarine:	rep for first thread closure as mod! lol..no srsly..thank you
	Kalikah:	.... maybe we could do a part 2 :P