[Nemo]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

This thread has already done well, hackers have been outed, prevented (extremely unlikely for him to attempt to hack again), discouraged (of other potential hackers tempted because of what happened here) and punished. Moving on from the evets case, lets focus our efforts on catching the other hackers out there, there are still quite a few in our midst.

I don't know how this post was overlooked.

I believe the most incriminating replay shows the protoss going nexus first on TDA with 0 scouting, then pulling back all his probes and units to his main base at the sight of just 2 marines (if you use his camera vision). Timber went for an all in and denied all scouting, so the logical explanation of his actions is he saw a trail of dots on the minimap that alerted him, which was not have been possible as he had no vision at all. Before this game timber played like 5 games with him all very suspicious.

pRoTimber vs Ghost

League :
Map : Tel'Darim Altar
Length : 9min43
Version 1.4.2

Replay Analysis

• 7:03 : Ghost see a bunch of marines coming before backing his Stalkers and his probes. That last move is only explicable if he has seen the SCV coming too behind. He had not.

• He didn't knew from Timber base that All-in was coming. He didn't poked with 1 or 2 stalkers are good often do. Not conclusive in itself but makes things even more suspect in this case.

My own conclusion (and it's only an opinion)

• For me this Replay is suspision of Map Hacking. It can be explained if Timber was known by Ghost to do that 50% of the time in this situation. That I can't say, that's our top tier players that can and Ghost himself.
• No Poke: I guess you can be afraid of Concusive Shell in that timing and that might have prevented him for poking. But not at least puting one stalker on the Xel'Naga ? Weird.

I will distinguish "suspicion" as something suspect, and the definition Apth gave me:

Apth: @Nemo - evidence isn't necessarily conclusive, whereas proof is usually considered to be

I will go on on other replay when I can. Tonight or tomorrow.

Edit : Lowered to "Suspicion" following Erasmus remark. I think I have never witnessed such think myself though.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[|Erasmus|]

I don't see why this is terribly suspicious. I've seen protoss do that against me cause they want another round of warp in before engaging some marine pressure, and don't want me to just target down 4-5 probes and run home.

Need to see a bit more than just pulling his probes back to his main when an attack is incoming to say he's hacking...

[Volition]

I think the probe move isnt that bad by itself. You see those marine numbers with the stalker, he can see 9 (knowing tha tis the minimum number of marines). it is unlikely to be a marine marauder push at 7 mins with that number of marines running around. And you dont really want to fight at least 9 marines with 2 stalkers, especially if there is a chance of scvs coming behind. these guys are top 200, they know marine counts

I think it might be suspicious, as good game sense often looks, does anyone else have replays that looks suspicious? he could be a maphacker for all i know, but it wouldnt feel right incriminating him on this evidence alone.

[Nemo]

pRoTimber vs Ghost

League :
Map : Metapolis
Length : 13min18
Version 1.4.2

Replay Analysis

• 4:27 : He scouts the vicinity of Timber base but as there is no barrack in his base, a proxy is probable so it's perfectly legit. From that point Timber is simply dead as it is a reactor hellion proxy.

My own conclusion (and it's only an opinion)

• No cheat suspicion for me here.

Remember I'm not high level player, I might have not seen certain things.

[Nemo]

The third replay is the Timber vs Evets replay, not ghost one.

So my general conclusion would be that's it's, for now and for me, no enough for me to conclude any cheat. We might need more replay and preferably from other players.

But I might be wrong.

Other opinions on the subject ?

Anyway, thanks to Timber for keeping the community vigilant.

[Flaunt]

all pRotimber does is cheese. i matched him 6x in a row and he all ind me every game. his play is pretty predictable after awhile so maybe ghost really did know it was coming

Quick Comments

	aLtShortizz:	So if he cheese and all-in alot, hes not allowed to call out a Map hacker? really?
	:	that's not what he said shortizz, just a harmless comment!
	x5.Revenant:	Yeaps that's a valid point! You may be able to read opponents more easily if the playstyle is repeated.
	TAEdgE:
	nGenLight:	Missing the point shortizz
	SLCN.NXZ:	Wouldnt normally rep this but making up for shortizz's downvote
	Rage:	shortizz -he meant that if you know someone all-in a lot you expect it
	TCPKiaSu:	nice one

[crAzerk]

If it's of any relevance, I played against Ghost in a 2v2 and he showed no signs of maphacking. Of course this was just one game.

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by Flaunt

all pRotimber does is cheese. i matched him 6x in a row and he all ind me every game. his play is pretty predictable after awhile so maybe ghost really did know it was coming

Sorry that you had to be one of the casualties of the absence of comprehension :/ You have my regards.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	...what? I don't even...
	:	@Pig Refer to the rep comments on Flaunt's post,
	NvRossi:	trying too hard pig
	nirvAnA:	He made an irrelevant post here just to attack shortizz cause of their past history. doesnt deserve +rep

[pRoTimber]

Originally Posted by Flaunt

all pRotimber does is cheese. i matched him 6x in a row and he all ind me every game. his play is pretty predictable after awhile so maybe ghost really did know it was coming

yes yes, i typed whole 2 paragraph and deleted them, i remember im an ignorant

[Ghost300]

Hi, I am the protoss player using the account named Ghost. A friend of mine(PulseSPR) recently told me about my account name being mentioned on this forum, so I quickly registered to respond.

I've uploaded replays of the other games that I played against protimber that day. I hope this will help resolve the matter, if you any of you guys are still willing to have more replays verfied. I appreciate the analysis you've already done and that you're being very objective about it. I feel that I should at least try to care about this somewhat absurd accusation, not to defend myself but to make sure people who play a game with me in the future don't just assume that they're about to play a shitty game against an opponent that can see everything.

Also, one mentioned about cheese and all-ins... I'm really not against it, they're all parts of the game and are often strong enough to bring you quick wins. However, if you play the same opponent and he/she uses the exact same all in every game... it becomes pretty predictable and gives you an idea of their preferred playstyle.

Pulse has been uploading replays of me and him playing on the replay analysis thread, please take a look at those as well if more verification is needed. They're actually pretty good games too!

I apologize this community and protimber, and anyone else for all the time spent and upsetting you guys. Please say hi when we meet in ladder or something, I like SCII a lot and I want it to be fun as always. bye

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:	gj quickly registering here and responing heres ur 1st rep!
	Rage:	I agree that based on the other two replays, that was not at all suspicious.
	EveVendetta:	Nice that you acknowledge all-ins are part of the game and not in a derogatory way towards timber
	:	good first post :)
	nirvAnA:	+1 for coming out. Don't post select replays, please post a replay pack of your games this season

[Nemo]

Thanks Ghost for understanding our (including Timber) inquiries. We will watch those replays.

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

yes yes, i typed whole 2 paragraph and deleted them, i remember im an ignorant

Timber, you're not ignorant. Please, don't be touchy.

You have done great on identifying hackers. I remember perfectly that you were one of those who had the balls to make that call at the time :

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

its kinda obvious from the 2 video link, i would share cosmos grief..like ur comments in the video, "SERIOUSLY!?"

Neutral people (including me) will watch the new replays of Ghost. When done I will ask you what you think about it. As crAzerk says in OP, truth come from confrontation of opinions of many people. We need your feedback on our analysis.

No matter what the conclusions of those inquiries, you were right to post those replays as the first one, without context, is suspect and require explanations.

[Nemo]

pRoTimber vs Ghost

League :
Map : Metapolis
Length : 16min39
Version 1.4.2

Replay Analysis

• 3:51 : A SCV is building a depot right in your base. You know there is barrack with lab tech in his base and then there could be a reaper really near your base. You're Chronoing a Stalker but not harassing too much the SCV. Legit move.

• 4:48 : I'm puzzled you're not sending your Stalker scout or not trying to control the Xel'Naga at all, but the stalker is clearly needed to defend any reaper, so it's legit. But no Xel'Naga control at all in both games seen is weird.

• 6:22 : Your stalker is moved from your natural to your main and at the same moment the reaper is nearing the center of the map. Very slight suspicion.

• 6:47 : The army of Timber goes out of his base, you're Chronoing your 3 Warpgate while you have still your bases to saturate. It's suspicious or a perfect timing. For top of SEA : Is this legit in this timing to do that without any information.

• 6:47 : Moreover, the Reaper is now south of the map and the stalker leaves the main to come back to the natural: Suspicious go and return move by the Stalker synchronized with the reaper moves.

• 7:10 : The reaper attacks by the south an retreat but you're not pursuing him at all, even without 1 stalker. You're obviously waiting for something but not scouting at all, so you should not know Timber's army arrives. Suspicious.

• 7:26 : Pre-splitting you're stalkers. Not even one waiting for the reaper at the South.

• Not a single stalker waiting for the reaper in the main now though the only thing you see from Timber is a Reaper. You perfectly know that Timber is arriving and perfectly ready for his army while without hack you could not know it. For me that's evidence of Map Hacking.

• 9:14 : You don't see the army of Timber coming to your drone and you still retreat it at the exact moment Timber's army arrives. Again, you don't use your drone to scout around to see what is happening and there was no reason to retreat that drone at that moment, your army was arriving. That can't be luck no more and still absolutely no scouting. Not even once you got to the Xel'Naga, not even once at that moment of the game. For me that's evidence of Map Hacking.

• You had a robo at exactly 12 minute but never bothered to make an obs without being under pressure since you had denied Timber Natural and made many damages and you had 2 bases fully saturated and a big army sieging him in his main. In the context of what have been listed above it becomes more that suspicious too.

From that point Timber has lost his army, you're sending yours like a boss without any scouting in his base and win after some time.



My own conclusion (and it's only a opinion)

• I have never seen a player scout this few. In fact apart from your first drone scout, you didn't scouted a single time before destroying Timber's Natural. Not once and you didn't get surprised a single time either. For me thats more than suspicion. maybe not evidence as it could be insane luck, but personally I don't believe it.
• You were at least 2 times 100% aware (not suspecting, 100% aware) of Timber push without having any vision of what was coming or very substantial signs. That's for me 2 clear evidences of Map Hacking.
• When watching this replay I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I was watching even more suspect things than in the 1rst game and telling myself : "He didn't send a replay of a game when he map hacked. That's not possible, that would be so risky !". And after watching it very closely, I'm unfortunately quite convinced you Map Hacked this game you just sent us.

Truth come from the opinion of multiple people. Nirvana, you unfortunately has to watch it very closely too and control the different points I'm listing and the rest of the game. You have far better knowledge of the game in general and in particular, you have to confirm or infirm my points. Same for other members of the community and top es.


Beleive me, I really would like to be proven wrong, and I'm still very open to the possibility. I tried my best and I was I think quite neutral on the subject.


I can't make the 2 other replays tonight. I will continue tomorrow (in 22 hours) as i have to go to bed now.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Stallion:
	TCPLemminks:

[wolf]

I watched the three replays Ghost uploaded. The most suspicious thing for me was the chrono'ing of gateways with ZERO scouting of Timber's army approaching, while both bases were not saturated. I looked at the other two replays for the same chrono timings to see if they were part of a specific BO, but it didn't occur. It would be pretty cheeky to upload games of himself cheating to look more confident. My personal opinion is he probably is cheating. This is from a GM Toss by the way. Maybe Ghost can enlighten us though as to his mindset/explanation of that game, I don't mind standing corrected.

Sorry, should be more specific, the game I'm talking about is the first one uploaded, where Nemo did a write up. Cheers.

[nirvAnA]

Yea I was doubtful of what timber said till i saw the replays he sent me, as well as looking at the one game i had with ghost.

Basically on TDA I tried out some weird double gas 2 gate (I usually experiment if i dont know the opponent) to try and defend the inevitable 4 gate on that map. He did not scout and he went like 1 gate robo, which is absolute suicide in PvP on TDA and every GM knows this.

And as nemo said, virtually no scouting the whole game, no occupying of watch towers, against me as well and that i feel is one of telling signs of map hackers.

To Ghost: Thanks for coming out. Don't post a few select replays, since you have games that old i assume you autosave all your games. Please post a replay pack of all your games this season. After doing soon and if found not to be conclusive a formal apology will be made and all posts regarding your case will be deleted. Thanks

Quick Comments

Stallion:

[crAzerk]

I have not watched the replay and only read Nemo's analysis, and from that it does seem fairly suspect and I really wonder what Ghost's thought process was.

And yea it doesn't make sense for him to upload games of him hacking, why would he do that??

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I have not watched the replay and only read Nemo's analysis, and from that it does seem fairly suspect and I really wonder what Ghost's thought process was.

And yea it doesn't make sense for him to upload games of him hacking, why would he do that??

I've not commented on this thread before as i don't play at the good players level so i think it's generally best left for them to decide what is expected or usual.

However, and i'm not suggesting that you were implying this at all, but if trying to decide if someone is hacking or not then that players thought process outside of the game itself should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome.

It is very very difficult to prove one way or another but in reality only the actual gameplay actions and thought processes from within the game need to be considered not why they would submit hacked games.

For example they may have done it to then turn around and say "but i submitted that game do you think i'm stupid enough to submit a hacked game?" thus creating doubt in a case that is hard enough to prove as it is.

It seems to me from the outside that only the in game actions are to be assessed and acted upon.

I don't envy you guys having to do this, however you need to be commended for doing so but it is a blight on the human race that you have to.

Quick Comments

wolf:

[EveVendetta]

I agree with Nemo's analysis. For me it was three things - the stalker, the chrono-ing of gates and total lack of scouting.

1. Toss has no reason to shift his stalker like that and it can't be so coincidental that it tracks the reaper's movement across the map. Yes, if you suspect a reaper you would leave a stalker in your main, but in ghost's case once the reaper went to the south he moved it down again.
2. The only time toss would chrono a gate would be if he was going to take an offensive or scouts an impending attack. In ghost's case it was neither.
3. Any GM toss would at least leave a probe or unit at the xel naga towers, or make AT LEAST one obs to scout what build the terran is going for. Ghost did neither again.

As such I really agree with Nemo's analysis that Ghost did maphack, good job and thanks for the work.

Ghost, you have some explaining to do.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Stallion:

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Hunter

but if trying to decide if someone is hacking or not then that players thought process outside of the game itself should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome.

I was referring to Ghost's thought process in the game, when he decided to chronoboost 3 gateways blind, etc. Why would I be referring to his thought process outside of the game? That makes no sense.

For example they may have done it to then turn around and say "but i submitted that game do you think i'm stupid enough to submit a hacked game?" thus creating doubt in a case that is hard enough to prove as it is.

Indeed, super mind games if that was the case. But still, it seems extremely weird to be posting like 'hey guys, i wasn't hacking, here's some replays of me playing even more suspiciously than I have been in my previous games"

Looking forward to Ghost's response

[MeaNySPR]

lol what am i missing here? this whole new thread all of a sudden to publicly denounce incidents that happened really long time ago? i thought we were all done with this shit?

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Done with you hacking? no.
	wolf:	no free pass for you

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by meany

lol what am i missing here? this whole new thread all of a sudden to publicly denounce incidents that happened really long time ago? i thought we were all done with this shit?

U can still give ur end of the story here if u are adamant that u didnt hack.