[NvRossi]

part 1 "Before starting... for those of you who don't know, the latest maphacks on the internet block your camera on the last place visited when u are looking at some place u haven't got ANY kind of vision on, so that if people watch the replays they don't find it so evident that you are hacking. Camera block situations should be taken as moments where the camera is COMPLETELY frozen but no action is being made, they are easy to spot because most progamers are constantly moving around with the mouse, and almost never leave their camera at the exact same spot, if they do, it's just for about 1-2 seconds."

Heres another approach at looking at the evidence we have available to ourselves.
For this ill look at one game... myself vs chobo from the previous masters cup on korhal compound....

we'll give a bit of leeway and start looking from around 4 minutes

4:32 to 4:37 5 seconds with 0 actions
5:33 to 5:37 4 seconds with 0 actions
5:41 to 4:43 2 seconds no actions
5:48 to 5:51 3 seconds no actions
6:46 to 6:50 4 seconds no actions
8:24 to 8:28 4 seconds no actions
9:59 to 10:03 4 seconds no actions
12:27 to 12:09 2 seconds no actions
12:59 to 13:01 2 seconds no actions
14:11 to 14:16 5 seconds no actions
18:28 to 18:31 3 seconds

After filtering all the valid times where he makes no actions these all appear to look like screen locks.

I scrolled through the entire combat log rofl and can safely say that i rarely had a second without making an action. Sc2gears says chobo was playing at 160 apm this game and should therefore be pulling around 2.5 actions per second... there should rarely be periods of absence.

part 2
Viking hacking path numero 1
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320420687#

viking hacking pather numero 2
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320420848

viking hacking path numero 3
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320421049

pylon finder extreme 4
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320421330#

Part 3

THE PULL BACK OF THE CENTURY
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320421532

thats all i can do for now... hope you enjoyed this! ima go eat some dinner... will add some more soon

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Stallion:	an excellent way to debate
	iM SundeR:	so many random, short stops but apm stays consistant. even in the game vs ender he just posted there are a TON of these breaks, wtf???
	nGenLight:	LOL @ THAT VIKING RALLY WOW
	Rage:	All still explainable by alt-tabbing to check facebook messages, however.
	TAriiChard:	ROFL funny funny
	Snx.Mufasa:	vikings so sus >_>
	Baldie:	Your commentary is top notch
	Pandan:	If anyone at ANY skill level watches all 5 vids and claims no hacks - please delete their battle.NET accounts
	ROOTPetraeus:	well done
	sRAnti:	Hahahaha that viking. Excellent work Rossi
	Champi:	as you said it best in the last vod. it all adds up
	Eddie:
	crAzerk:	Rossi sounds so cute ^^
	TABiggun:	Awesome content, great post
	AvPoker:	excellent
	x5.Revenant:	WTF AT THAT OVERLORD PATHING
	deL:

[Dox]

Originally Posted by nvrossi

viking hacking path numero 1
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320420687#

hahahahhahahaha

[sRAnti]

THE PULL BACK OF THE CENTURY
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320421532

1) If Chobo could see what was waiting for him, why would he send his scvs halfway across before pulling them back?

2) I think 2 spines is definitely scary enough to give up the attack, if zerg pulls their drones and transfuses you won't be able to break that.

3) It's a good thing this video doesn't matter at all because LOL THAT FIRST VIKING VIDEO

Quick Comments

	Zepph:	No offence, but please refreain from commenting when you don't know enough to make an informed decision.
	CHoBo(kice):	ty sir
	neKo:	who are you again.
	x5.Revenant:	No offence, but please refreain from commenting when you don't know enough to make an informed decision
	Champi:	this should not be where u make your first post. please leave
	deL:	countering chobo's +rep

[CHoBo(kice)]

Originally Posted by AntiMetric

1) If Chobo could see what was waiting for him, why would he send his scvs halfway across before pulling them back?

2) I think 2 spines is definitely scary enough to give up the attack, if zerg pulls their drones and transfuses you won't be able to break that.

3) It's a good thing this video doesn't matter at all because LOL THAT FIRST VIKING VIDEO

Yes, rather than throw away a game and try go up a ramp with uncertainty. 2 spines queen... what if he had bane etc that I couldn't see. based on the double spine and queen he was read for this attack and who knows what more he could have why would i try force myself up a wall that's gonna lose the game.

So I did something which would look like something stupid in most peoples eyes.. go back and try to outmacro... which I did and won... pretty impressive game imo.

Quick Comments

	Pandan:	wat
	Snx.Mufasa:	vikings dood
	jayaiwhy:	didn't nestea or drg do something similar at MLG? Pulled all his drones when he 6pooled and pulled it back
	TAEdgE:	what the **** at the last line
	sRAnti:	Uh, you missed number 3. I wasn't backing you up, just refining one of Rossi's points
	x5.Revenant:	Pretty impressively big ego imo.
	neKo:	You said earlier that you wanted to show everybody that you can macro and still win

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

Yes, rather than throw away a game and try go up a ramp with uncertainty. 2 spines queen... what if he had bane etc that I couldn't see. based on the double spine and queen he was read for this attack and who knows what more he could have why would i try force myself up a wall that's gonna lose the game.

So I did something which would look like something stupid in most peoples eyes.. go back and try to outmacro... which I did and won... pretty impressive game imo.

Just for the record, Do You HacK?????

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by Chobo

i did poke up the ramp, while i could win, i could also lose. My decision to pull back because i wanted to make an entertaining game, to show i can go from a all in, scv train back to my base and out macro to take the win.

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

Yes, rather than throw away a game and try go up a ramp with uncertainty. 2 spines queen... what if he had bane etc that I couldn't see. based on the double spine and queen he was read for this attack and who knows what more he could have why would i try force myself up a wall that's gonna lose the game.

So I did something which would look like something stupid in most peoples eyes.. go back and try to outmacro... which I did and won... pretty impressive game imo.

"I went to go all in, but I wanted to make an entertaining game and show I can go from an all-in to macro and win"
"... Hang on, I mean I was uncertain as to whether he had banes and I just assumed from the 2 spines he was ready for it, why would I go in when I think I'm gonna lose?"

[UHF]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

part 1
4:32 to 4:37 5 seconds with 0 actions
5:33 to 5:37 4 seconds with 0 actions
5:41 to 4:43 2 seconds no actions
5:48 to 5:51 3 seconds no actions
6:46 to 6:50 4 seconds no actions
8:24 to 8:28 4 seconds no actions
9:59 to 10:03 4 seconds no actions
12:27 to 12:09 2 seconds no actions
12:59 to 13:01 2 seconds no actions
14:11 to 14:16 5 seconds no actions
18:28 to 18:31 3 seconds

Rossi, same game but looking at your actions (just a few selections) -

4:17 to 4:20 3 seconds no actions
4:38 to 4:40 2 seconds no actions
4:59 to 5:01 2 seconds no actions
6:13 to 6:16 3 seconds no actions
6:23 to 6:26 3 seconds no actions
10:33 to 10:35 2 seconds no actions
15:25 to 15:28 3 seconds no actions

Yes, there are no 5 second areas without action - but it's not that much of a stretch to think a second or two more to have a quick drink or stretch your fingers. I mean, we all play differently.

I also watched another game of Chobo on Ohana where he used similar flight paths for his Vikings when there were no units there - so I'm not totally convinced (as suspect as it may look) that he is cheating.

PS. Not trying to be a douche bag, just covering all bases before you guys nail him to the wall.


Mafia vs asgchobo Shakuras game:

5:05 stares a long time at the overlord that spots the proxy raxes
knows that he has to commit, if not it will look too obvious.

Has SCV selected, moves screen down to see minerals and clicks towards minerals, then clicks to harvest. I think this is just was it is, scrolling the screen down to see the mineral patch to click.

6:12 sees 2 spines and 2 queens, pulls back everything

we had a discussion with terrans and zergs, if you see 2 spines and 2 queens you still commit cause this usually means the zerg has no units, and 20 scvs 14 marines kills queens without energy and spines really fast. At this point Mafia was pumping out lings and had speed almost finished. Chobo did not see the lings.

Let's assume he wasn't cheating - he has an SCV and 8 marines at the very front and the rest chaining behind. If he attacks with that defence with 8 marines he loses. So he waits for the unit train to catch up - but then mafia pulls his drones/any lings and defends. I think this was just a sloppy play by letting his units go up the ramp too early.


7:05 kinda suspect that he keeps calm and and doesnt raise his supply depots when the ling counter attack is coming. Imo, he knows exactly how many lings are coming. He even keeps one of his raxes lifted, when in reality a ton of lings and banelings could be coming and that would mean game over.

Didn't see the attack coming. He had a SCV selected that he went to build a CC and then queue command to harvest minerals. As he sees the lings stream in, he instantly selects his marines to move and at the stage the lings are on top of him. I put this down to APM and not having the speed to respond.

11:50 takes the 6o clock expand, cause he knows that mafia is making infestors, chobo has 2 engineering bays but no turrets, still havent scanned or scouted mafias base.

12:50 lifts up his wall, makes reactors, and takes the 4th. He has no idea what Mafia is doing ( this is also the timing where a ling bling muta attack would happen) , chobo has no tanks and is sitting calm with his marines.

At this point Chobo is blind. All he has seen is a whole bunch of lings. The 6 o'clock is the safest place to land without Marines moving out. Yes, it's exposed to mutas but he has no medivacs to move out the front with (or any other unit other than marines) His other CC is also nearly complete, so I would think this is the safest play.

His 4th goes and lands just as his medivacs complete and he moves out to defend it, with combat sheilds finishing soon after.

14:00 Was gonna send 2 drop ships to mafias main,but knows that mafia has that covered with overlords, he sends them to mafias 5th that was about to be made, he sends the drop so mafias overlord doesnt see it.

At first this does look suspect, but there are overlords at the bottom of the map anyway, which are argueably closer and he flies past them anyway.

15:10 mafias great spire is building, chobo ( still has no map vision or knows what mafia is doing) scans mafias main, and then his natural. Right after he drops 3 starports. Imo he does this so it doesnt look suspect.

Like you said he is blind at this point. All he has seen is lings - he scans for tech and see's the spire and responds occordingly.

16:45 stims a bunch of units to avoid mafia burrowing his ling at the 5th base. Makes a turret too to avoid burrowed infestors.

Nothing wrong there, the ling kills his SCV and he goes after it so he doesn't need to scan.

18:20 hits the money scan right on top of all of mafias unit and spines(3rd time he scanned this game)

At 17:40 he has the Xel'Naga Tower and can't see any units. His scan at 18:20 is exactly one screen further into the FOW - seems reasonable.

19:10 chobo has a sensor tower, mafia backs, chobo follows the units in the fog, moves the vikings to kill the broods and then scans. (thats not how its supposed to be done)

18:54 he see's brood lords and backs off. he moves vikings instantly afterwards. At 19:15ish you see the main part of the army moving off in the sensor field, at which point he moves his vikings up over the raised ground for vision.

from 19:30 – 20:30 he has no map control even though he could easily claim it with marines (in theory) then he drops two scans sees everything.

That is true, mind you his ground army isn't very large, but he is almost maxed with money bank, so scans are probably worth it.

21:20 repositions his units when mafia is moving out, doesnt spread his units at all even though there are red dots on the mini map from the sensor towers ( I would be ******* afraid of the infestors)

Just before this he is macroing, and you can see the units moving well before on the sensor tower.

25:00 hits money scan

See's units moving up the front and scans

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	xGKingdelete:

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by UHF

Rossi, same game but looking at your actions (just a few selections) -

4:17 to 4:20 3 seconds no actions
4:38 to 4:40 2 seconds no actions
4:59 to 5:01 2 seconds no actions
6:13 to 6:16 3 seconds no actions
6:23 to 6:26 3 seconds no actions
10:33 to 10:35 2 seconds no actions
15:25 to 15:28 3 seconds no actions

Yes, there are no 5 second areas without action - but it's not that much of a stretch to think a second or two more to have a quick drink or stretch your fingers. I mean, we all play differently.

I've watched Mafia vs asgchobo Shakuras game and can acceptable alternative reasons for all those listed against him.

I also watched another game of Chobo on Ohana where he used similar flight paths for his Vikings when there were no units there - so I'm not totally convinced (as suspect as it may look) that he is cheating.

PS. Not trying to be a douche bag, just covering all bases before you guys nail him to the wall.

FUARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

did you actually look at the situations in the game what i am actually doing at these times?
i filtered all the times from which he was actually moving his screen and not making actions

did you actually look at the game or simply look at the combat log? if you did then all is fine and my argument is weakened... it is still however relevant.

for example you listed
6:13 to 6:16 3 seconds no actions - justified as waiting for factory cost....

[UHF]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

FUARKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

did you actually look at the situations in the game what i am actually doing at these times?
i filtered all the times from which he was actually moving his screen and not making actions

did you actually look at the game or simply look at the combat log? if you did then all is fine and my argument is weakened... it is still however relevant.

for example you listed
6:13 to 6:16 3 seconds no actions - justified as waiting for factory cost....

I did watch the game, however didn't filter those times. A couple of them your screen was stationary, a couple moving. It was just an observation that no actions for X period of time doesn't automatically make you a cheat.

I feel bad for posting this now, as it wasn't my plan to get on your bad side

Quick Comments

NvRossi:

not on my bad side :P this is just frustrating haha

[Zealo]

i can say with confidence he wasn't using hacks in any of the 2v2 ladder games he's played with me

why would someone who's hacking ever do proxy rax builds? :S

Quick Comments

Zepph:

Why would anyone even bother hacking team games? Irrelevant.

[nirvAnA]

Yea I don't get it either. Instead of spending time finding more conclusive evidence he resorts to personally attacking people who have different opinions than him, on a forum where opinions are supposed to be shared. as stally said, its a tough decision to make to 100% convict someone of hacking and there needs to be undeniable proof, like in the evets case.

It's a very common elitist attitude.

"Me good at sc2 > me superior than you in all my views > if you disagree with me you must be retarded (insert choice insult)"

don't understand how he manages to insult everyone living in perth too. the world does not work like this.

Rossi's post is a step in the right direction and hope to see more of these analysis

[SanG]

Quick Comments

	ToRSpookToR:	YES
	SLCN.NXZ:	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
	neKo:

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by cRSanG

I can't tell if you're being serious. IT'S TARGA.

[Strafe]

Probably both

[jayaiwhy]

so, how can Chobo prove that he isn't hacking?

even if he counter-analyse what you guys have posted, wouldn't that go on forever?

Quick Comments

Pandan:

Watch Rossi's post above - I'd say its hard to say he's not doing SOMETHING suspect

[Rage]

Originally Posted by jayaiwhy

so, how can Chobo prove that he isn't hacking?

even if he counter-analyse what you guys have posted, wouldn't that go on forever?

This is why I want everyone to be careful about what they say - its as hard to disprove maphacking as it is to prove it.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

The Oracle has spoken.

[iM SundeR]

Originally Posted by Rage

This is why I want everyone to be careful about what they say - its as hard to disprove maphacking as it is to prove it.

We're never going to get any kind of statement that constitutes a respectable retort to these allegations from Chobo. He doesn't give a shit. There are a dozen people in this thread looking at his replays trying to prove/disprove the hacks - and this is for the good of the community and to keep a standard of sportsmanship. If Chobo does not want to contribute to that cause then I'm not too sure what can be done.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	The Oracle has been shut down. suck shit.
	Pandan:	Could just ban him I spose

[Eddie]

Nice analysis Rossi.

At first i thought, looks bad, but yeah, that's probably where you'd go if you did want to find/kill them safely. Personally i dont think the pylon example is that sus.

However different scouting patterns on Ohana is very odd! Unfortunately picking off stationary overlords/plyons isn't as obvious as blindly sniping a drop/spotting packs of mutas, but as you say mate, pretty dodgy, and it all bloody ads up!

Quick Comments

CHoBo(kice):

ty sir

[ROOT`iaguz]

EDIT- actually I didn't read what the viking paths were supposed to mean, nvm.

When I watch those links, it's not amazing that he found overlords. Zergs always put overlords on the sides of ohana, around the main ledges and that area behind the natural. Ender and Mafia had very similar positions for their overlords, so do most zergs on that map. Zergs who don't suck balls position overlords around drop lanes, you can't call someone a hacker that they do this. Rossi, have you ever made a viking and just flown it around and got overlords because you can predict without looking where they'll probably be?

What is really suspect is the fact his habits change. His path in the ender and mafia games is very similar and covers a lot of ground and is just sensible terran play, but the fact that in the peleus game it changes a lot, he skips a lot of ground. Although in the Peleus game he makes a point of running that one viking around a ton, even over large stretches of map that is clear of overlords (the full left of the map) all game long.

As for the pylon thing, it's careless that he didn't check all the third, but rossi you know as well as I do that there's always an additional pylon. Didn't Ray ever teach you that? We'd need to see a lot more replays of him locating the hidden protoss pylons more often. Remember later in that game he does load a full doom drop right underneath an observer and move them right over a pylon before realising it'd been spotted.

The main 100% thing that makes me think he's a hacker is the pull back of the century. That simply does not make sense to me at all.

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	so its valid to change your path every time? stfu
	Spud:	Ur smoking crack guz
	Nadir:	Check out my video analysis and please add your thoughts to it. You've been fairly neutral and I'd value your thoughts

[cruxis]

I have an idea.

Send the replays to Catz. He went through Spades replays today and showed the signs of hacking. Some of them were really ******* obscure.

So, why not send the replays to Catz to investigate. He has no interest in the players, the tournament, for the SEA community, so he will be completely neutral. You can even take it a step further and not tell him which player you think is hacking, and if he says Chobo was hacking, then it's a fairly safe bet that he was. If he says he can't find sufficient evidence of either player hacking, well, most probably innocent.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	jayaiwhy:	Not sure if this issue should be spread outside SEA though
	FvRelimzkE:	get judge catz on de_case