[Benji]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

*Yawn* at the poster above me, continue to cry about the strengths of other races' without considering how you can abuse their weaknesses.

Benji, you know how I feel about Zerg. Bottom line is I don't think Zerg are underpowered, they are just much more difficult to learn and play. Hence you see relatively little amounts of Zerg players at the lower levels. & the little amounts of players seem to struggle because they don't have the understanding/mechanics of say Edge or Pig which is really required to even the field between Protoss/Terran.

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

[UncleTom]

Originally Posted by fur

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

I wish it was this easy.

[fur]

Originally Posted by UncleTom

I wish it was this easy.

And I wish it were easy to micro marines against banelings. It's not the games fault my micro is crap.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

[Hyperterminal]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

im pretty sure u r crying over zerg being the worst

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

Think of it this way, when you begun to play Starcraft, it gave you an option to select difficulty: Normal/Difficult. If you picked Zerg, you have chosen difficult. It is way harder to learn/play but the more experienced/better you get, the "imbalance" starts getting lower and lower.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Xeen

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

it sounds like you really hate zerg and dont enjoy playing them, if you dont enjoy playing them or think they arent the best race then CHANGE RACES!!!!
when this game gets all of its expansions and is somewhat figured out then complain about balance

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

No.

I watch the games, and I don't see the same level of control or precision out of these players that MVP and MC show. The reason players like MC and MVP are so good is that on top of their strategies, they have absurd mechanics that let them just do more with any given unit - July is pretty inefficient in his army management (and always has been). Nestea had that kind of play when he won GSL2 (as did MKP, going very far on quite one-dimensional play), which is why he was so cheese-proof and mirror-dominant, but I haven't seen much from him lately.

[fur]

Grass is always greener on the other side.

I played protoss for the first few months. Hated PvP so much that I switched to Terran.

At the time I felt that the Terran bioball was OP, but having had my own bioball incinerated on multiple occasions I no longer feel this way.

Right now I'm feeling a lot of frustration as a Terran dealing with Bling/Infestor play, and have been all inning way more than I'd like because I feel like if I don't have godly control my army gets vaporised.

However, I'm sure if I switched to Zerg, I'd be whinging as much as everyone else who plays that race seems to.

The biggest thing that makes a difference is the map as far as I'm concerned. I feel so much more confident TvZ on reasonably close starts. On maps like Tal Darim, I'm genuinely buggered if I know how I'm supposed to win if we enter the mid game on even terms.

[Makra]

SEA's top 10:
- 5 protoss
- 3 terran
- 2 zerg

Zomg irrefutable proof that toss is OP and zerg UP!!!1!1!!1

[Benji]

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

Zerg was trickier to learn in SC1 as well. Anyone who has played 5 games with each race could tell you zerg was going to be harder and it has nothing to do with balance, it's due to the 'backwards' nature of playing zerg.

Don't like it, don't play them. Switching isn't as hard as you think, especially since you'll already good knowledge of one of the match ups.

Also, given how easy the other races are you should be able to get super1337 really quick? No?

[nGenLight]

I know, it is pretty unfair in that sense.

[pikk0n]

Just a thought as to the reason why you have so many high level protoss players. Maybe it's just by luck that the BETTER starcraft 2 players happened to choose protoss as their preferred race at the start. How many of those high level protoss players made a switch from zerg anyway? I doubt many if any. Zerg may just be the least preferred race. IMO, it's not the race that's underpowered but the players themselves.

[TAEdgE]

Reading some of this makes my head hurt. Guess that happens when Santi posts in a thread.

[dennistoo]

Zerg is not underpowered. They mass 200 foods easily and it just take 1 mistake to get your P/T army wipe out.