[Torniquet]

Originally Posted by tendersteak

Pinder.... i really love you right now . My new hero

Jealous =/

[nirvAnA]

Drama time!!!

[sheepy]

Pinder came in with a perfectly credible argument in his first post, actually supporting zerg. You than came in (saying u agreed with him), with the typical "L2P guys we adapt, you adapt too. Use your OP forcefield." argument and also the classical "z players are just awesome thats the reason why they pwn"

In fact, he actually came into this post totally neutral, saying nothing can be blamed on imbalance.

Look at your first response to pinder's post, you where actually agreeing with his statements. Than u added this into your argument. I don't know how you can call something like this productive discussion:

protoss is not UP . just that theyre playing it wrong. there is many strategy to be executed with stargate, hallucination and dropship.

seriously protoss is the easiest to play and people are complaining? this is i must say l2p . use your damn op forcefield imo.

You do not elaborate at all, just suggesting units. If there are strategies to be executed with warp prisms, i'm sure those people playing and studying this game for a living would have come across it.

Compared to pinder's analysis, where he actually gave examples of the challenges of playing zerg, with comments like the above, how can you expect not to get flamed, even by someone who was previously supporting your argument.\

You said that pinder can't accept discussions, but your statements don't look like discussion to me. "L2P" without any proper analysis is not discussion imo.

I'm sure pinder, after making his comment, and seeing you post this, also felt that you are clearly misinformed. Most likely, if you had not added the above quote, he probably would not even have felt the need to post something like that. Coming in and telling everyone to L2P is just not the way to argue.

Also, i am someone who strongly believes that making sweeping statements requires properly articulated backing. If you just make point without backing it up, its going to be criticized, and the critic may even target your credibility, which Pinder did in this case.

[nirvAnA]

starting drama is good, it makes tendersteak start posting more

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

starting drama is good, it makes tendersteak start posting more

Stop commentating from the sidelines and get involved, i wanna see you call someone trash and let the ban hammer fly, real drama ends in admin abuse damnit.

[FatHuntresS]

I did not elaborate? What i was pointing out was the bias in the statement of nirvana and roz, pinder said that every race losing their fleet is a big mistake. Not just toss, i agreed with that.

I also pointed out that roaches is even slower than Stalker . The reason toss is more dependable on units is something that everyone knows, its because they are much more solid and versatile. Nirvana said that zerg have fast units, i pointed out only speedlings is fast. Other than that roaches and hydra is slow. I accept criticism.

May i even suggest that a P that knows zerg mistake actually prefer to fight Z than T. some people may make mistake and sometimes not. but let me suggest again that P is not UP. That is my point. Zerg has alot of flaws and openings if u know the way to abuse that you could easily key in your victory. Zerg is a very complex race , and to fight a complex race you must understand that complexity & mechanics. I may not be a very good player like pinder claimed, SINCE i 9 pool all the time .

I dont see how in which way i did not back my point, maybe u didnt read well. I suggested units that were not used because those were used against me in ladder/custom by very good protoss players. If protoss were really underpowered,i would agree with it.

[FatHuntresS]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

Stop commentating from the sidelines and get involved, i wanna see you call someone trash and let the ban hammer fly, real drama ends in admin abuse damnit.

if without any bias involved, you will get that ban already from any other forum. Thank god admins are on your side.

Keep flaming pinder, it makes you look good.
And i had respect for you awhile then. Now you're just a childish POS.

[sheepy]

Well i'll add in my take on this argument.

You have your opinion, that is fine, i'm going to respond to several of your points

pinder said that every race losing their fleet is a big mistake. Not just toss, i agreed with that.

What nirvana and roz are talking about is the nature of toss at the moment. Take a look at the korean forums, they clearly believe toss needs alot of tweaking right now. there is no denying that toss late game is strong , but toss can be summed up as follows

Play well: u roflpwn
May a slight mistake: you get crushed

Like idra said, toss mechanics are straightforward, its easy to learn, and not tough to be decent at, but to really go far, its difficult. Theres a ceiling. You can only improve so much, and its difficult to squeeze more when the mechanics are so straightfoward.

TLO elaborated pretty well on this: With zerg, theres always more ways you can improve your game, theres always more things you could be doing at any point in time. The potential is limitless. The problem here is that toss is purely based army a set of simple mechanics that need to be executed flawlessly.

I also pointed out that roaches is even slower than Stalker . The reason toss is more dependable on units is something that everyone knows, its because they are much more solid and versatile. Nirvana said that zerg have fast units, i pointed out only speedlings is fast. Other than that roaches and hydra is slow. I accept criticism.

Roaches slower than stalker? off creep, its extremely hard to kite roaches without taking blows. On creep. you can't kite at all. When roaches get speed, you also can't kite. Add to that the fact that roaches benefit more from upgrades than gateway units, their a great investment going towards late game.

May i even suggest that a P that knows zerg mistake actually prefer to fight Z than T. some people may make mistake and sometimes not. but let me suggest again that P is not UP. That is my point. Zerg has alot of flaws and openings if u know the way to abuse that you could easily key in your victory. Zerg is a very complex race , and to fight a complex race you must understand that complexity & mechanics. I may not be a very good player like pinder claimed, SINCE i 9 pool all the time .

In general, P now prefer to fight T than Z. If you look at korea diamond stats, pvz is 43%, IN Z favor.

I dont see how in which way i did not back my point, maybe u didnt read well. I suggested units that were not used because those were used against me in ladder/custom by very good protoss players. If protoss were really underpowered,i would agree with it.

You suggested Stargate, forcefield, and warp prisms. Suggesting units is not the solution, we all know they exist!.Instead, you should be talking about how they where used. Just because you have lost to protoss players does change the fact that imbalances do exist, be it in the favour of P, Z or T. It is better to use the top level of play as a gauge, as these guys spend their whole lives formulating strategies. for someone at our level to even comment that they need to L2P is ridiculous. These people could probably beat most using their feet. Its just like before with people saying " NYDUS MORE YO"

if without any bias involved, you will get that ban already from any other forum. Thank god admins are on your side.

Do you read the TL forums much? cause people who say L2P generally end up getting flamed, or even warned by admins. Even if the rest of your argument is good, once u throw in the "L2P", your argument just goes down the drain, even if it is awesomely sound. Go take a look on the TL forums and see what kind of posts get people banned. OP claims and L2P are the MOST common.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by FatHuntresS

if without any bias involved, you will get that ban already from any other forum. Thank god admins are on your side.

Keep flaming pinder, it makes you look good.
And i had respect for you awhile then. Now you're just a childish POS.

Yep, admins are on my side, i'm apparantly a childish POS, and the whole world is, infact, against you fathuntress.

[FatHuntresS]

Not really, you and one other does not mean the whole world is against me Pinder.
You are not any more privilege than anyone else here. Please realize that.

[nirvAnA]

All of this needs to be resolve with a

FATHUNTRESS VS PINDER

EPIC GRUDGE MATCH!! BO7 NOW

For the prize and simplicty's sake, the winner of the match will be accepted as the better starcraft player and hence superior view of balance and the agruments will stop.

Now do you guys accept the challenge?

[NvPinder]

I accept!!!!!!

[FatHuntresS]

Originally Posted by tendersteak

Well i'll add in my take on this argument.

You have your opinion, that is fine, i'm going to respond to several of your points


What nirvana and roz are talking about is the nature of toss at the moment. Take a look at the korean forums, they clearly believe toss needs alot of tweaking right now. there is no denying that toss late game is strong , but toss can be summed up as follows

Play well: u roflpwn
May a slight mistake: you get crushed

Like idra said, toss mechanics are straightforward, its easy to learn, and not tough to be decent at, but to really go far, its difficult. Theres a ceiling. You can only improve so much, and its difficult to squeeze more when the mechanics are so straightfoward.

TLO elaborated pretty well on this: With zerg, theres always more ways you can improve your game, theres always more things you could be doing at any point in time. The potential is limitless. The problem here is that toss is purely based army a set of simple mechanics that need to be executed flawlessly.



Roaches slower than stalker? off creep, its extremely hard to kite roaches without taking blows. On creep. you can't kite at all. When roaches get speed, you also can't kite. Add to that the fact that roaches benefit more from upgrades than gateway units, their a great investment going towards late game.



In general, P now prefer to fight T than Z. If you look at korea diamond stats, pvz is 43%, IN Z favor.



You suggested Stargate, forcefield, and warp prisms. Suggesting units is not the solution, we all know they exist!.Instead, you should be talking about how they where used. Just because you have lost to protoss players does change the fact that imbalances do exist, be it in the favour of P, Z or T. It is better to use the top level of play as a gauge, as these guys spend their whole lives formulating strategies. for someone at our level to even comment that they need to L2P is ridiculous. These people could probably beat most using their feet.





Do you read the TL forums much? cause people who say L2P generally end up getting flamed, or even warned by admins. Even if the rest of your argument is good, once u throw in the "L2P", your argument just goes down the drain, even if it is awesomely sound. Go take a look on the TL forums and see what kind of posts get people banned. OP claims and L2P are the MOST common.

i did say "this i must say" L2P. Usually i dont use that, if P were really underpowered, why is PvT at 58% . I used it as an exceptionally, saying something that IS obvious is obviously going to receive a l2p aswell. can i suggest zerg is UP? i will get flamed of course, and pinder will reply me with a l2p. I do apologize in the first place for using 'l2p' in the first place though.

[NvPinder]

You will not get away with these post editing crimes nirvana.

[FatHuntresS]

I never once said i was better than pinder, also agreed him being a better player. However his stupidity will get him killed. I accept.

[nirvAnA]

im not on anyones side as an admin i want to stay neutral of course.

REPLAYS WILL BE POSTED AND trash talk is highly encourgaed but keep it in he games and not on the forums

[Roz]

i'll get casters, lets do it! pinder vs fathuntress!

[nirvAnA]

Thread has been closed.
The grudgematch has begun.


GL to all, and to those in the future who want to start arguments of imbalance or gameplay, be warned if things get heated you might have to back up what you say in a grudge match series!!

So be civil on the fourms to one another