[Dox]

I read this entire thread and I still don't understand why you think symmetry/homogeny is a critical element in balance. I actually feel a little bit ill now.

[AtlasMeCH]

I'm mostly concerned about pro players who I can very much understand how they feel...

I have a total surpassing 50,000 plus games with zerg going from brood war to sc2.

I can totally understand "The feelings" idra goes through, and those feelings understand on a greater level then what is apparent.

[ProAnnn]

If you want synergy, go play warcraft 2. Its very balanced . Seriously? Symmetry? If you wan just make the game 1 race.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Why do you ignore that zerg are also sharing their economy with the overlord?

And no, being able to lineraly produce defense from a single building, that being the spawning pool, would not suddenly allow zerg to mass up drones with out having to make offense.

it's like I said in the original post... if zerg split spine and spore production at the hatchery it would make macro stale because zerg would just be matching in power defense to the offense that t and p always have lying around with dual hatchery production...

But remember, this would also be shared with queen production, and teching so there are some major interruptions there....

This is why a single building with the linear production of defense is the "Degree" that retains interesting functionality of gameplay.

Ok, I'll go through this post part-by-part.

"Why do you ignore that zerg are also sharing their economy with the overlord?"

I dunno, maybe you made your post that way, where you didnt mention the overlord at all, because its irrelevant to how cost-effective spines and spores are.

"And no, being able to lineraly produce defense from a single building, that being the spawning pool, would not suddenly allow zerg to mass up drones with out having to make offense."

So you're saying that I cant make a huge amount of spines and spores and mass drones while waiting to get to about 80 to 90 drones so I can mass attacking units? Surely that would be easier given your idea, as you'd have the extra larvae. Unless you can tell me how you still use larvae at the same rate with both methods, then Im correct on this one.

"it's like I said in the original post... if zerg split spine and spore production at the hatchery it would make macro stale because zerg would just be matching in power defense to the offense that t and p always have lying around with dual hatchery production..."

You're assuming terran and protoss are stronger than spines and spores, start giving the defensive structures more credit please. Perhaps you dont use them at the correct timings, and thus you think they are weak? Also, Im not saying spines and spores should be produced on the hatchery instead of your idea, Im defending the current state of the game.

"But remember, this would also be shared with queen production, and teching so there are some major interruptions there...."

Yeah, that'd be valid if my train of thought had anything to say with what you're saying is wrong.

"This is why a single building with the linear production of defense is the "Degree" that retains interesting functionality of gameplay."

Surely I dont have to tell you that interesting functionality of gameplay doesnt equal balance. Also, your previous points were either irrelevant or incorrect in this post, so you cant really make any conclusions with any sort of strength off of them. Im also confused at why you had to put the word "Degree" in quotation marks...

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I'm mostly concerned about pro players who I can very much understand how they feel...

I have a total surpassing 50,000 plus games with zerg going from brood war to sc2.

I can totally understand "The feelings" idra goes through, and those feelings understand on a greater level then what is apparent.

Wait, what? This doesn't make any sense at all.

50,000+ games as Zerg over BW and SC2? So that makes you a pro? You can play that many games and still suck. Not sure whether this is that case or not, but I have my suspicions.

As for what Idra goes through, he's very, very good at complaining, but I don't think he cares nearly as much as you think he does, and he would likely hate the changes you are suggesting.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I'm mostly concerned about pro players who I can very much understand how they feel...

I have a total surpassing 50,000 plus games with zerg going from brood war to sc2.

I can totally understand "The feelings" idra goes through, and those feelings understand on a greater level then what is apparent.

The amount of games you've played isnt as important as the level of play you're at. If you've done 50,000 games at a level of play similar to bronze league, then all of your games would have been full with incorrect decisions and reactions, and thus shouldn't be considered as having any kind of weight in an argument.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Yes, from your point of view... but is your point of view educated?

Benji:

• Plays at a relatively high (masters) level.
• Commentates at a relatively high level.
• Manages a pro team and interacts with high level players.
• Analyses replays and helps his pro team with strategy.

AtlasMeCH:

• Plays in Platinum on NA (according to the account he created today).
• Can't use proper english.

And the winner is...

Quick Comments

	Bugalugs McScruffin:	Erasmus!!! :)
	nirvAnA:	Yea Atlas you shouldn't have went there!
	Zepph:	<3
	TAsCarLet:	is it atlas?
	lolwut:	Yeh pretty sure it's Atlas. Benji has absolutely no chance there
	Mayo:	Cute +1!
	Zealo:	<3

[MazEi]

If what you're saying is true, NesTea should never win any games, IdrA should never have beaten BoxeR at MLG Orlando, the team SlayerS will win every single GSTL, the GM leagues will not have any Zergs and I mean 0 Zergs.

But tell me, how many of the things above are actually happening? Have you taken a look at the statistics from Blizzard about Win/Loss ratios between races?

Are you even qualified to talk about balance? I play Terran and lose a lot of my games against Protoss and Zergs, but that doesn't mean Terran is underpowered or the game is 'unbalanced'. Just means I suck and I should l2p the game. I think you should stop posting and do the same.

I feel as if you're learning game design on what ever college/university course you're taking, heard of this term called symmetry, and wanted to flaunt about it by applying it to every game you play.

[FaDeEvetS]

...I don't wanna be that guy, so I'll just quote some generic battlenet forum messages. "lololol l2p platinum talking about balance lololol"
-DiamondGuy

"lolololol l2p you're not masters"
-Mastersguy

if you really wanna prove imbalance through...questionable 'facts'....use bnet forums
/thread

Quick Comments

Mayo:

Good :)

[AtlasMeCH]

I just simply cannot agree that for a race that "Has to make defense" in order for cost effective macro, but also "Has to make offense" which also interferes with economic production... in order to force their opponent to make defense as well is in a fair state of gameplay.

It can only be labeled as torn mechanics when you factor the overlord in larvae production along with split defense ground to ground and ground to air...

Along with the fact that queens occupy 2 control, where you need to make more overlords using up more larvae that is needed to then compensate for queens.

Queens which are most certainly not cost efficient with their 150 cost, How can it cost 150/2 control when it is terrible compared to spine crawler... at best more comparable to the spore with a somewhat better attack... yet still no where near spore and costing twice as much as spore.

Queens are totally unrealistic to be used offensively ... ultimately..unless you reach the 5 armor ultralisk to transfuse it.

That was at one time my theory as to "The true" and perhaps only strength of zerg... transusion of a 5 armored unit.

Yet transfusion is even degrading zerg production.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Yes, from your point of view... but is your point of view educated?

I am one of, if not THE leading commentator in the region, as well as that I manage and own a professional starcraft 2 team that has some of the most impressive results of any team.

So yes, its educated.

Quick Comments

	TAsCarLet:	edercation
	Nvdeth:	Sorry but you really need to lower your ego a notch or seven. There is so much wrong with your post.
	TAkrunch:	ewwww
	TADivinity:	Hit by "THE" train
	[TA]LoSt:	Xeria results are because they are amazing players, not you. Enough of the 'MY' team bs?
	dippa:	that is completely unnecessary, show some class for god's sake.
	SilentNoodle:	do you do coaching too?
	TACosmic:	Results of players is the most innacurate representation of a managers skill
	StarScream:	Kelly is better caster by a long shot cum diddy
	iM yang:	Don't recruit players with good results and claim the results were even remotely influenced by you
	NvRossi:	my head hit my desk
	TAriiChard:	HOLY SHIT WE'RE GONNA GET BANNED!
	Dox:	Step the **** back SlayerS
	TAEdgE:	if dox reps i rep
	Danny:	sooo arrogant
	TAnom:	;( You made a girl cry because of your arrogance.
	Fourby:	xGKBenjiLight, xGKBenjiMafia, xGKBenjiiaguz, xGKBenjijazbaz, xGKBenjiBenji. ????
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	lol wtf, mayte, get that ego in check. such a benjamin!
	toneg:	Dude, I'm gonna type as sober as possible, you're honestly pathetic.
	NvPinder:	Holy hell... New low big boy. New low.
	Champi:	you have no, and deserve no respect from our community with your misguided and egotistically arrogant attitude
	Mayo:	That's a little disappointing. Chin up and soldier on.
	kellyMILKIES:	Wow
	cRSenSei:	interesting

[FaDeEvetS]

play some other races, they're hard too!
This form of theory crafting leads to AND accomplishes nothing; Zerg's a good race! build a macro hatch or shh. >

[MazEi]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I just simply cannot agree that for a race that "Has to make defense" in order for cost effective macro, but also "Has to make offense" which also interferes with economic production... in order to force their opponent to make defense as well is in a fair state of gameplay.

It can only be labeled as torn mechanics when you factor the overlord in larvae production along with split defense ground to ground and ground to air...

Along with the fact that queens occupy 2 control, where you need to make more overlords using up more larvae that is needed to then compensate for queens.

Queens which are most certainly not cost efficient with their 150 cost, How can it cost 150/2 control when it is terrible compared to spine crawler... at best more comparable to the spore with a somewhat better attack... yet still no where near spore and costing twice as much as spore.

Queens are totally unrealistic to be used offensively ... ultimately..unless you reach the 5 armor ultralisk to transfuse it.

That was at one time my theory as to "The true" and perhaps only strength of zerg... transusion of a 5 armored unit.

Yet transfusion is even degrading zerg production.

Here is a simple solution, go play some boring game where every race is the same. Just don't play SC2 or even SC:BW(which has been played for about 12 years now and back then there wasn't even inject larvae for Zergs).

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I just simply cannot agree that for a race that "Has to make defense" in order for cost effective macro, but also "Has to make offense" which also interferes with economic production... in order to force their opponent to make defense as well is in a fair state of gameplay.

It can only be labeled as torn mechanics when you factor the overlord in larvae production along with split defense ground to ground and ground to air...

Along with the fact that queens occupy 2 control, where you need to make more overlords using up more larvae that is needed to then compensate for queens.

Queens which are most certainly not cost efficient with their 150 cost, How can it cost 150/2 control when it is terrible compared to spine crawler... at best more comparable to the spore with a somewhat better attack... yet still no where near spore and costing twice as much as spore.

Queens are totally unrealistic to be used offensively unless you reach the 5 armor ultralisk to transfuse it.

That was at one time my theory as to "The true" and perhaps only strength of zerg... transusion of a 5 armored unit.

Yet transfusion is even degrading zerg production.

Queens are insanely cost efficient. This discussion has been raging else where on these forums today. A queen is ~2 extra hatches worth of larvae, and a not terrible defensive unit, for 150 mins.

Other than that, you are rehashing the same points: "I have to use larvae for stuff other than drones, but other races can constantly produce workers". This is NOT a balance issue. You can produce workers at least twice as fast as any other race when left alone. If they -don't- force you to spend half your larvae on defensive units (either making lings, or saccing drones to make spines/spores) then you should be -insanely- far ahead and never lose a game.

That's not balance.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I just simply cannot agree that for a race that "Has to make defense" in order for cost effective macro, but also "Has to make offense" which also interferes with economic production... in order to force their opponent to make defense as well is in a fair state of gameplay.

It can only be labeled as torn mechanics when you factor the overlord in larvae production along with split defense ground to ground and ground to air...

Along with the fact that queens occupy 2 control, where you need to make more overlords using up more larvae that is needed to then compensate for queens.

Queens which are most certainly not cost efficient with their 150 cost, How can it cost 150/2 control when it is terrible compared to spine crawler... at best more comparable to the spore with a somewhat better attack... yet still no where near spore and costing twice as much as spore.

Queens are totally unrealistic to be used offensively ... ultimately..unless you reach the 5 armor ultralisk to transfuse it.

That was at one time my theory as to "The true" and perhaps only strength of zerg... transusion of a 5 armored unit.

Yet transfusion is even degrading zerg production.

1. Zerg doesnt need to produce offense and defense at the same time, so I dont see what the problem there is.

2. Queens give an additional 4 larvae per 40 seconds, on top of what hatcheries already give. That makes them really cost effective. Thats not even considering how they can spread creep, transfuse hurt units, kill air units easily... They are much better than you'd think you should watch spanishiwa play, or even see how zergs are using them in recent ZvTs on GSL. Stop looking at queens as units that are meant to be slow and really strong units that are meant to defend all attacks, and start looking at them as good support units.

3. Tranfusing doesnt degrade zerg production unless you have perfect injects and you have no extra queens.

Read the post above mine for a better summary, though.

[AtlasMeCH]

I do not agree that 1 queen = 2 hatcheries worth of production.

[ikki]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

I do not agree that 1 queen = 2 hatcheries worth of production.

not sure if...

[nard]

If Ur not happy playing the game... Why play it then?

[Apth]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Paradoxi have been a major root theme to the field of philosophy itself, and this mathematical concept of 3 unique bodies generate paradoxi so purely, it can be used as solid evidence that philosophy has an intimate relationship with math via the number 3.

This, right here, annoys the crap out of me. It really sounds like you've just finished your first year of Philosophy at uni and want to impress us with big words and fancy concepts.

Paradoxes, dude. Not paradoxi. Paradoxes.

In response to your actual argument, balance in a game as complicated as Starcraft 2 - and it's freakin' complicated - isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. You make some interesting points, but your argument doesn't quite follow, and is hardly convincing.

I suggest instead of presenting your argument as a suggestion, rather than as something that is true and we aren't clever enough to realise, and you'll avoid pissing off a lot of people with your arrogance.

Including me.

[AtlasMeCH]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

1. Zerg doesnt need to produce offense and defense at the same time, so I dont see what the problem there is.

Zerg has to be the aggressor and expand... after doing such they can't just magically combine their offense together to make defense as a means of recovery.

Example (4 lings merging together to make a spine crawler) coming back home after having caused the opponent to (hope to god) make defense.


The queen is ultimately not cost effective with their 2 control because it is cutting in to the overall 200 control army, especially, and I mean especially not for 150 minerals.