[Eldrid]

^ cant rep, but agree with everything~

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	Apth:	Can't rep Pig, giving to Eldrid instead
	asdfSchnitzel:	I rep both! <3

[nGenLight]

If your a recognised player, it's game sense.

If you are a nobody, it's hacking.

I could make a lot of decisions based on tells I wouldn't let anybody know about (so they won't try to meta-game my tells). How can one possibly judge ones decision making? Unless its blatant hacking, its really hard to judge. We do not have the technology to do so, which is really disheartening.

E.g - I would make extra cannons based soley on what I see from my opponents natural when I scout it again. Yeah hide them queens and drones so I'll make useless cannons!

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Eldrid:

plz tell? :D

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

If your a recognised player, it's game sense.

If you are a nobody, it's hacking.

I could make a lot of decisions based on tells I wouldn't let anybody know about (so they won't try to meta-game my tells). How can one possibly judge ones decision making? Unless its blatant hacking, its really hard to judge. We do not have the technology to do so, which is really disheartening.

E.g - I would make extra cannons based soley on what I see from my opponents natural when I scout it again. Yeah hide them queens and drones so I'll make useless cannons!

It's generally more basic than that. It's generally you make random choices without absolutely any scouting after the first drone scout. And then each time, and a big number of times, you make spot on the right choice without seeing anything.

It's not just reacting to what your scout see or don't see, but reacting without any sort of information.

Meatex, I will watch the replay when I'm back home tonight.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Nemo

It's generally more basic than that. It's generally you make random choices without absolutely any scouting after the first drone scout. And then each time, and a big number of times, you make spot on the right choice without seeing anything.

It's not just reacting to what your scout see or don't see, but reacting without any sort of information.

Meatex, I will watch the replay when I'm back home tonight.

I disagree, I sometimes respond to things that I don't see coming simply for the fact that there is a potential that it is coming. Isn't that what being a safe player is all about? Maybe this accused player just likes being safe on 4 cannons and not dying to Roach rushes. You don't know that. Does me making cannons at my mineral lines after a roach push to prepare for a muta switch make me a hacker? He could easily be continueing massing roaches or going another tech, I cannon up because without so a muta switch would end the game, this is simply playing safe. It would be nice with perfect information, but without it I can only make guesses on imperfect information WHICH WILL KEEP ME ALIVE. I recall MC blindly making 3 cannons and a Stargate to defend Idras Hatch cancel all ins in a particular MLG. Does this make MC a hacker? Or does MC see something we don't see or perhaps simply being safe?

What constitutes as "information" varies from person to person. People may gather information from various places/experience. Therefore some people may not be as playing blindly as you think because of their indept knowledge at what might happen at certain times. I remember a period where I never scouted in PvT because I had a build that universally stopped everything.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I disagree, I sometimes respond to things that I don't see coming simply for the fact that there is a potential that it is coming. Isn't that what being a safe player is all about? Maybe this accused player just likes being safe on 4 cannons and not dying to Roach rushes. You don't know that. Does me making cannons at my mineral lines after a roach push to prepare for a muta switch make me a hacker? He could easily be continueing massing roaches or going another tech, I cannon up because without so a muta switch would end the game, this is simply playing safe. It would be nice with perfect information, but without it I can only make guesses on imperfect information WHICH WILL KEEP ME ALIVE. I recall MC blindly making 3 cannons and a Stargate to defend Idras Hatch cancel all ins in a particular MLG. Does this make MC a hacker? Or does MC see something we don't see or perhaps simply being safe?

I don't speak about this game I haven't watched yet, but about the other hackers before in this thread. For all of them that were "confirmed" we had blatant hack (those corruptors sniping the Mothership), confession, or too much too suspect moves or decisions.

Edit:

Originally Posted by iVnClare

not trying to be an a** but meatex has the tendency to call people hackers if he loses to them on ladder

*had it happened to me b4~~~

Don't introduce your personal grudges in here please. Judge the case on the evidence we have. Thanks.

[iM yang]

You never know what people's experiences are. Maybe this guy has lost to roach allins before and he's just straight up made the decision to blind build 4 cannons if somebody goes gas first and doesn't scout the natural hatchery.

[Meatex]

I'm sorry as much as you might not want to draw conclusions one a single replay with no obvious map hacking no matter how I look at it - even when I try to find reasons I cannot come up with anything that makes sense and does not equate to losing games

I left the game because I'm just not interested in playing a hacker. And while this is the only replay I remember thinking he was a hacker before too.

In GM level there may be valid points to making extra cannons because you are unsure but that doesn't address the timing of his so called scout nor does it address that he basically sends the probe to die by actually a-moving to the bottom of the ramp at my natural.
Also note his supply right before my roaches arrive - that is he has had no indication of any all in. And this is when he has only 1 gate. There is no reason he would be spending that money on an additional pylon - given where he placed it - unless he knew an attack was coming and didn't want the 2 pylons already there to unpower his excessive cannon count. At 30/44 no less.

I also noted his reaction right after I dropped my roach warren. He was supply blocked but was making a pylon in his main. Granted he may just be retarded so he made 2 pylons though why he wouldn't prefer to spend that money on... you know more than 1 gateway. Cause he'll be safe for sure against an attack he has no idea is coming in theory but he won't be able to do anything. He can't even tech what with only 1 gas.

Maybe he planned the wall that way from the beginning, maybe his mechanics really are so bad that he has one gate and a free 20 supply with another pylon on the way. He is protoss after all and you don't exactly have to be good to win as protoss
Or more logically he is hacking as not even a platinum would lose in a macro game to this guy that gets supply blocked at 18 for a painfully long time and counters that by getting 3 pylons ahead in supply. Then makes 4 cannons - no gates and late gas meaning any tech is going to be late. All this against the most standard of standard ZvP builds in diamond - speedling expo.
I am the first to criticize blizzard on their fail coding but not even I can fathom how a protoss can get into diamond by playing such a style as his standard against 14/14 regardless of how OP protoss may be

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

I'm sorry as much as you might not want to draw conclusions one a single replay with no obvious map hacking no matter how I look at it - even when I try to find reasons I cannot come up with anything that makes sense and does not equate to losing games

I left the game because I'm just not interested in playing a hacker. And while this is the only replay I remember thinking he was a hacker before too.

In GM level there may be valid points to making extra cannons because you are unsure but that doesn't address the timing of his so called scout nor does it address that he basically sends the probe to die by actually a-moving to the bottom of the ramp at my natural.
Also note his supply right before my roaches arrive - that is he has had no indication of any all in. And this is when he has only 1 gate. There is no reason he would be spending that money on an additional pylon - given where he placed it - unless he knew an attack was coming and didn't want the 2 pylons already there to unpower his excessive cannon count. At 30/44 no less.

I also noted his reaction right after I dropped my roach warren. He was supply blocked but was making a pylon in his main. Granted he may just be retarded so he made 2 pylons though why he wouldn't prefer to spend that money on... you know more than 1 gateway. Cause he'll be safe for sure against an attack he has no idea is coming in theory but he won't be able to do anything. He can't even tech what with only 1 gas.

Maybe he planned the wall that way from the beginning, maybe his mechanics really are so bad that he has one gate and a free 20 supply with another pylon on the way. He is protoss after all and you don't exactly have to be good to win as protoss
Or more logically he is hacking as not even a platinum would lose in a macro game to this guy that gets supply blocked at 18 for a painfully long time and counters that by getting 3 pylons ahead in supply. Then makes 4 cannons - no gates and late gas meaning any tech is going to be late. All this against the most standard of standard ZvP builds in diamond - speedling expo.
I am the first to criticize blizzard on their fail coding but not even I can fathom how a protoss can get into diamond by playing such a style as his standard against 14/14 regardless of how OP protoss may be

MC had apparently no scouting infromation on Idrain that MLG game (according to Tastosis). Whether MC knew it was coming we wouldn't have a clue, we are not MC.

I was debating sentiments with Nemo, I have absolutely no interest if whether this player hacks or not.

Listen to what Yang said, and don't even try pinning hacks on one game. I've won game on old metal close position where I just went a build that requires my opponent in the close spot to be successful. But I did it blindly anyway, because I can. I can stare at the fog of my opponents whenever I want, I did that in CH tourney to prove how silly it is, anyone watching those replays would call me a hacker outright. These EVIDENCE IS WEAK.

Consider this scenario: I sent an ob to my terran opponents base, my opponent scans and kills it before I see anything. I have no idea what he is doing, but because I know the potential of medivac drop comes around a particular timing, I automatically place units in my main to deny drops - this with no information at all but my experience and my desire for not being killed because I'm playing unsafe. Does that reaction make me a hacker?

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	NvRossi:	u argue lots
	AxSGRiM:	but i like it when u argue
	asdfSchnitzel:	arguing is key :)

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Listen to what Yang said, and don't even try pinning hacks on one game. I've won game on old metal close position where I just went a build that requires my opponent in the close spot to be successful. But I did it blindly anyway, because I can. I can stare at the fog of my opponents whenever I want, I did that in CH tourney to prove how silly it is, anyone watching those replays would call me a hacker outright. These EVIDENCE IS WEAK.

Do I understand you faked hacking to prove searching for such evidence of maphack is wrong ? People usually are not faking maphacking. No accused people ever tried to pretend that. I'm not even certain that you could really trick us because the real evidences are when the hacker react every time opponent is doing something and at no other moment. And if you're faking maphack you can't obviously do that. If you're interested in my methods, we can watch together Ghosts 4 games and I'm interested to hear what you think about what I found and what you find in those games.

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Consider this scenario: I sent an ob to my terran opponents base, my opponent scans and kills it before I see anything. I have no idea what he is doing, but because I know the potential of medivac drop comes around a particular timing, I automatically place units in my main to deny drops - this with no information at all but my experience and my desire for not being killed because I'm playing unsafe. Does that reaction make me a hacker?

Well, Ghost never made a Obs in the 2 games he hacked in where he had a robo (only one in end game when there was a unscouted Ghost Academy thrown down by Timber) ...
But if you make a obs to scout it's already a good sign of not maphacking. Then if you can't scout (or don't want) and make assumptions, you will let some troops and cannons were you think there are danger. But if you don't scout, don't prepare for anything, then prepare yourself every time he's out without you seeing anything, then there is something fishy. The problem of Ghost was that he was not preparing for anything, never scouted and was never caught offgard.
Watch those with me, I'm interested in your opinion.

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PiG:

agree

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Do I understand you faked hacking to prove searching for such evidence of maphack is wrong ? People usually are not faking maphacking. No accused people ever tried to pretend that. I'm not even certain that you could really trick us because the real evidences are when the hacker react every time opponent is doing something and at no other moment. And if you're faking maphack you can't obviously do that. If you're interested in my methods, we can watch together Ghosts 4 games and I'm interested to hear what you think about what I found and what you find in those games.


Well, Ghost never made a Obs in the 2 games he hacked in where he had a robo (only one in end game when there was a unscouted Ghost Academy thrown down by Timber) ...
But if you make a obs to scout it's already a good sign of not maphacking. Then if you can't scout (or don't want) and make assumptions, you will let some troops and cannons were you think there are danger. But if you don't scout, don't prepare for anything, then prepare yourself every time he's out without you seeing anything, then there is something fishy. The problem of Ghost was that he was not preparing for anything, never scouted and was never caught offgard.
Watch those with me, I'm interested in your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing an amazing job and putting in an incredible amount of effort doing these analysis, and it's certainly doing much more good than anything. I really don't have the time to determine if this guy is hacking or not but just from the posts I can tell that his actions are extremely suspicious and definitely worthy of discussion.

What I was trying to say is that, no matter how suspicious someone is, it is impossible to pinpoint someone as hacking. Let me give an example: I spawn on Shakuras Plateau PvP, I constantly check one of the two possible spawn locations of my opponent, I blindly proxy gate near the spawning location I was checking, I proceed to two gate and win. I do this for 10 games in a row. 5 of these games I would be called out for "blatant hacking" when I'm just doing something completely retarded and risky. This is what I mean by no matter how suspicious someone is, there are no conclusive evidence.

Regarding the Diamond protoss player that went 4 cannons against a Possible Roach rush. There is by far not enough evidence to even classify him as suspicious.

[Sc2Clare]

not trying to be an a** but meatex has the tendency to call people hackers if he loses to them on ladder

*had it happened to me b4~~~

[Meatex]

I do believe at that MLG he had some kind of scouting information
Regardless light have you watched the replay?

I can understand making 2 cannons in your mineral lines to be safe from mutas, drops etc. That is usually done later in the game where you income can handle the extra cannons without harming your econ or army too much for very long.
This guys makes 4 cannons VERY early. Second cannon at 4:30.
Can you honestly say that you would drop money on extra pylons so your cannons stay up, later gas, no gates and 4 cannons after seeing a 14/14 and losing your zealot at the tower to 4 lings - which happened well after the extra cannons anyway.
Now lets so you do. What happens then when the zerg made 4 lings and mass drones while taking a third. Not only because you are on one gateway for so long could you do nothing to prevent the zerg from getting perfect mid game econ up easily. all possible tech would be delayed because you don't have a great deal of gas.
The cannons simply do not make any sense unless he was going for stargate or DT tech but he simply didn't have the gas for it as well as he was chronoing his warpgate. Especially as he was going straight for sentries out of that one gateway.

Here is what I understand of PvZ - now i'm not light but please do refute anything I say if its utterly incorrect.
When I have tried the same roach ling all in the biggest weakness is that first zealot. If the protoss sends that out to scout it will see the roaches and there will be enough time to drop extra cannons. I have seen the same in pro games as well. So it seems a pretty common play. Maybe you put a second cannon if you can't confirm expo or guys off gas then send the zealot and he will give you enough warning.

Additionally why 4 cannons? I'm fairly certain that barring artosis pylon, 3 cannons will hold with sentries so why make 4 unless you know a lot of stuff is coming?

@Clare
No idea who you are bro so no offense but keep your personal attacks to yourself.
I'm not raging or even mad just disappointed that blizzard are incapable of dealing with hackers effectively and promptly. I report it here because I would rather them take the points - as its clearly all they care about - and me get to move on to a proper game as quickly as possible. Thats my feelings and perhaps others feel the same and would rather leave than to play against someone who is hacking.

[iM yang]

Meatex, you weren't playing against a grandmaster player, maybe Diamond players aren't good enough to hold with 3 cannons and a sentrys. I would definately add on cannons after scouting a 14/14 as that opening is less economic and you can afford the extra defense if they make enough lings to deny scouting.

Making 4 cannons is very similiar to making 1 cannon when denied scouting as either one is weak to a specific thing the zerg does. What makes you so sure that he didn't lose to this SAME allin a bunch of times before and was on tilt? Why is he automatically hacking?
I think you are too quick to call somebody a hacker based on this one game. People do coin-flippy shit ALL the time, get used to it.

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	TAEdgE:
	Zealo:	♥

[wTlzq]

quote from idra: u cant make a read on bad players cause they dont know what they are doing

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xGKingdelete:

[Meatex]

as said in my previous posts - I had played him before couple of times and his game sense was uncannily suss. I will save future replays against him. Zealo also has a replay that shows some rather "good" game sense.
Also nobody in diamond does random 4 cannons... ever. Also given how it most certainly seemed like a reaction to seeing me drop a roach warren. Conjecture perhaps but given how Diamond ZvP is about droning until the protoss does some kind of a move all in and then you die and rage about protoss OP.
So its not so much a coinflip as a 99 sided die and he is banking on it not rolling 1-98.

As much as I doubt you will believe me - I am not being biased. Simply want to save others the wasted time. Try watching the replay and addressing some of the points I made rather than saying he got lucky end of story so QQ somewhere else.

[iM yang]

I watched the replay and I would address your points if they made sense. A diamond player might say to himself 'oh i might be getting allined i better make cannons' but nothing further.
You straight up shouldn't try to call somebody out on being a hacker with this little evidence, despite the rationalizations you make with this theorycrafting.

Looking over Zealo's replay - it looks like he scouted you and your opening basically shows all you can see against a 1-1-1 and all his reactions make sense, getting colossi and expanding.

[Meatex]

So a random strat that outright loses to standard ZvP is just him getting lucky?
A diamond player that gets supply blocked for a minute-ish and gets nearly 20 extra supply with another pylon on the way when he has 1 gateway and isn't putting chrono on the nexus - this guy is going to have such crisp timings that he knows he needs 4 cannons and 3 pylons so he doesn't lose power to them.
Not to mention that 3 seconds after my roach warren drops is when he starts dropping extra cannons.
At least with close spawns its a 33% chance of being successful.

I did say this several times that this isn't the only game, just the only replay I have presently. I don't make this post lightly or out of rage or anything like you seem to think.
I have lost ZvZ matches where the guy 6 pool all 1 spine rushed me and sent his drone to the right spawn first time in two seperate games. TDA and entombed valley - he couldn't have inferred by scouting overlord to narrow the odds either but he could have just gotten lucky twice in a row.

I had to deal with the whole evets debacle so don't insult me by insinuating I am accusing this player without proper consideration

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

I did say this several times that this isn't the only game, just the only replay I have presently.

it is all the evidence you have, and it's not enough to make such a serious accusation. it's enough to say "this looks suspicious, does anyone else have replays against this guy on ladder?"

no one is going to call him a hacker based on your feelings or based on replays you deleted. the sooner you accept this the easier it will be for everyone.

I don't make this post lightly or out of rage or anything like you seem to think.

well you seem pretty emotional...

[Meatex]

Originally Posted by Zealo

it is all the evidence you have, and it's not enough to make such a serious accusation. it's enough to say "this looks suspicious, does anyone else have replays against this guy on ladder?"

no one is going to call him a hacker based on your feelings or based on replays you deleted. the sooner you accept this the easier it will be for everyone.


well you seem pretty emotional...

I posted my analysis of the replay
Yes it is not enough for anyone else to say 100% he is likely a hacker but I have had more experience and was simply noting that to give the initial post some context.
I thought the whole does anybody else have thoughts or evidence thing was a given but my mistake

And I am getting annoyed because I made a post with all due consideration and people are responding with disrespect and insinuating I am doing this out of a QQ fit or something. That is simply insulting to me especially when the roles where reversed when the same players telling me its just luck, get over it where crying fowl over a single replay of evets while I was giving the same arguments - maybe it was luck etc etc.

But I will leave it here - I've had enough underhanded bm for today

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

Yes it is not enough for anyone else to say 100% he is likely a hacker

i find it hard to understand how you can acknowledge this and still be upset people refuse to call him a confirmed hacker :S

I have had more experience and was simply noting that to give the initial post some context.

that applies for the first time you mentioned these 'other games', why did you bring them up another 7 times after that?

I thought the whole does anybody else have thoughts or evidence thing was a given but my mistake

people posted there thoughts and other replays of him, wtf else do you want?

And I am getting annoyed because I made a post with all due consideration and people are responding with disrespect and insinuating I am doing this out of a QQ fit or something.

no one responded to your initial post in the way you're describing. everyone loved your initial post. people are responding negatively to the way you keep repeating the same accusation over and over with no new evidence in an increasingly whiny fashion.

That is simply insulting to me

it's nothing personal, my perception of you from what i've seen/remembered is very positive. i hate hackers as much as anyone, and am very supportive of posts like your initial post as people may look more closely at that player and if something concrete is found another hacker can be exiled and made an example of.

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	Meatex:	you failed to understand why i'm upset - and i even explained
	asdfSchnitzel:	Counter rep rep rep....rep!