[pRoTimber]

why so many maphacker on sea ladder these days? Clan fade can u tell fadeevets not to maphack?

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:	a bad one at that
	mGGDaedalus:	Get some evidence before throwing around accusations like that
	deL:

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

why so many maphacker on sea ladder these days? Clan fade can u tell fadeevets not to maphack?

LOL wtf i've kept this to myself for a few months now, but fadeevets is 141% a maphacker

[pRoTimber]

ya caught him after 1 game, unlike other hackers have to play so many games to catch

[aLtShortizz]

Do u guys have proof of it? Ive know evets for a long time and played plenty against him, i wouldnt doubt him unless i see some evidence.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

+1 to that he seems totally clean! need teh proof!

[mGMUSE]

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

[mGMUSE]

didnt attach

[FaDeGofire]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

hmm.. i'm not thoroughly convinced..
1. the drone dodging scv scout looked the most suspicious to me. i'm not a zerg player so i don't know.. is it possible that he always does it when 15 hatching? at high level, opponents will time their scout to come just before 15 hatch to block it.. so hiding drone might be a valid strat?

2. if he was watching minimap the scv movement looked suspicious enough to justify pulling a couple of drones to check; especially since he had no vision of his nat. also, the drones did not go straight to the bunker. i'm not sure about this either.

3. reactor hellion is the most common tvz opener. tal'darim is pretty good for hellion harass. maybe it's just a precaution?

4. wouldn't a good zerg player have a sense of when the hellions will be out and near his base? not a clear tell of maphacking imo

5. banes morphed right after the zerglings where produced. could be that he wanted to make banelings immediately?

sorry if my points are stupid. This is just my opinion and reasoning of why he might have done those actions. evets is my clan mate and friend.. i really need to see undeniable proof of maphacking or his confession before i can believe it. I would like to see more replays please


EDIT: @nrvgrim i don't regret anything i posted here. Evets admitted to hacking against timber and has assured me he has only done it twice. I have no reason to believe he used hacks against muse unless more replays are provided. as pig said.. this replay is not conclusive evidence of maphacking.

Quick Comments

AxSGRiM:

Kinda funny he admitted it, eh?

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by FaDeGofire

hmm.. i'm not thoroughly convinced..
1. the drone dodging scv scout looked the most suspicious to me. i'm not a zerg player so i don't know.. is it possible that he always does it when 15 hatching? at high level, opponents will time their scout to come just before 15 hatch to block it.. so hiding drone might be a valid strat?

2. if he was watching minimap the scv movement looked suspicious enough to justify pulling a couple of drones to check; especially since he had no vision of his nat. also, the drones did not go straight to the bunker. i'm not sure about this either.

3. reactor hellion is the most common tvz opener. tal'darim is pretty good for hellion harass. maybe it's just a precaution?

4. wouldn't a good zerg player have a sense of when the hellions will be out and near his base? not a clear tell of maphacking imo

5. banes morphed right after the zerglings where produced. could be that he wanted to make banelings immediately?

sorry if my points are stupid. This is just my opinion and reasoning of why he might have done those actions. evets is my clan mate and friend.. i really need to see undeniable proof of maphacking or his confession before i can believe it. I would like to see more replays please

i feel that your post is too biased, you have to view the replay with a neutral mindset instead of 'how to defend my clanmate'

1. ok.............
2. pulled 3 drones to check?
3+4.
remember this was back in season 2, where 2rax or reaper openings were the norm and hardly anyone went reactored hellions. to have that kind of understanding at that time would mean..... only nestea on crack

Quick Comments

	PiG:	nestea on crack? helion openers have ALWAYS been extremely common
	AxSGRiM:

[PiG]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

*The drone dodging the scv is unexplainable but is not proof in of itself. Sometimes you see chronoboost and other animations through fog of war and as your scv goes past his overlord barely out of vision I think he may have been able to see it in-game even if we can't in the replay this is just a small possibility. Also he could have had his hatchery blocked in previous games and was just taking precautions to avoid the possibility of scouting scvs. Whilst this sounds stupid I see players do this sort of thing ALL the time where they blindcounter things because they've been fighting it on ladder alot.

*He doesn't have an overlord over the hatchery and sees the scv go near it, pulling 3 drones to deal with it is understandable.

*This was ages ago soon after i coached evets how to play vs reactor helions with early roaches. If I'm not misinterpreting it looks like he's playing rather blind simply because he's focusing on his new build order. Now to react with a warren against a 1 rax bunker pressure by expecting helions following it is absolutely standard... you only could have gone helions or 1 rax FE from here. So evets actually made a mistake by going roaches without scouting/verifying you had taken gas and weren't expanding. Basically he was just assuming he had to defend the more aggressive of the 2 options (obviously reactor helions are more aggressive then 1 rax fe...) and prepared accordingly.

*pre-split zerglings is normal. if you don't have anything but lings to defend helions then its standard
*He just got raped by an attack and morphs alot of banes defensively against a player who's shown Marine marauder + blueflame play. This is in no way a tell.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAScarecrow:

[pRoTimber]

think of "minimap" hack/ sensor tower hack then u will see

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

thanks for uploading replays timber!

[PiG]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

think of "minimap" hack/ sensor tower hack then u will see

I see some suspect things going on. I also see both of you playing pretty badly.

If you would chill and point out the points in the rep you think are suspect I would love to reply to them and try to convince you otherwise. Timber I've played you alot on ladder and you are the cheesiest terran I know. I don't mean that as an insult but I mean that you all-in constantly. Play very low-econ and love drops and elevators. As such you are very predictable and someone preparing for that sort of play is not out off the question.

His low muta count being placed in the main makes perfect sense, as his army at the nat is covering his 3rd. What doesn't make sense is half his army running through watchtower vision soon after you leave the tower. But you know what, if you watch all your saved replays trying to look for maphackers you can always find some "evidence" that it exists. Looking at this replay he could have done so many things so much better especially if he was maphacking that I really don't see why it would enrage you that his movements in one situation are suspect.

I've never had trouble beating evets and he's such a nice guy that I find 2 replays posted by a player who won (muse) and a player who should have won (timber) to be unconvincing. I've seen evets play amazing games mechanically and decision-making wise. And the evidence you provided shows some pretty sub-par play with 1-2 strangely intuitive decisions. I really feel he would have dominated 10 times as hard if he was actually hacking.

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PiG

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

PiG, you're super very stronger than so many of us and can see so many things we can't (I think it, really). But please, please, don't jump on conclusions before giving time to time, especially since you admit you're extremely biased. Since it's your student and friend, that's not your call to judge it. Let neutral people have their analysis about it. If you don't it will get everyone nervous very quick.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	good point, sorry
	x5.Revenant:

[pRoTimber]

Originally Posted by PiG

I see some suspect things going on. I also see both of you playing pretty badly.

If you would chill and point out the points in the rep you think are suspect I would love to reply to them and try to convince you otherwise. Timber I've played you alot on ladder and you are the cheesiest terran I know. I don't mean that as an insult but I mean that you all-in constantly. Play very low-econ and love drops and elevators. As such you are very predictable and someone preparing for that sort of play is not out off the question.

His low muta count being placed in the main makes perfect sense, as his army at the nat is covering his 3rd. What doesn't make sense is half his army running through watchtower vision soon after you leave the tower. But you know what, if you watch all your saved replays trying to look for maphackers you can always find some "evidence" that it exists. Looking at this replay he could have done so many things so much better especially if he was maphacking that I really don't see why it would enrage you that his movements in one situation are suspect.

I've never had trouble beating evets and he's such a nice guy that I find 2 replays posted by a player who won (muse) and a player who should have won (timber) to be unconvincing. I've seen evets play amazing games mechanically and decision-making wise. And the evidence you provided shows some pretty sub-par play with 1-2 strangely intuitive decisions. I really feel he would have dominated 10 times as hard if he was actually hacking.

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

Evets: forget about it, try send the program to blizzard so that they could fix it in the next patch or something.

Pig: if u know me from a year ago u'll know i say glhf/gg everygame until i got bmed to the ground by certain ppl that i stopped doing it unless my opponent say it to me 1st.

It was only a few days ago when muse told me that evets is a hacker, i know whats coming and expecting it already thats why i dont even bother to reply him in the 1st place, after my doomdrop got caught like that i've already lost the mood to play on. If muse haven't told me i wouldnt even pay attention to it as it would be one of my normal losses.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Excellent idea to send the hack to Blizzard. You're wise to stay calm.
	EveVendetta:	Chill dude, you're doing well on ladder

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

Pig: if u know me from a year ago u'll know i say glhf/gg everygame until i got bmed to the ground by certain ppl that i stopped doing it unless my opponent say it to me 1st.

I don't think PiG was saying you were BM. he said that you all-in and cheese a lot. Contrary to what most people say, cheese is not BM.

[FaDeEvetS]

fairly sure the game/timeframe you're talkng about (havent watched the rep yet) was JUST after i'd had coaching/talked to pig about zvt and how to open. so i was pretty much just blindly doing what he'd told me, in order to get practice with the build as my mechanics etc were obviously much lower then so it was difficult to try out a new style as well as maintain scouting etc.
and even to this day i pretty much get 3 roaches if they do anything other than 2 rax ..

been streaming this morning and just played a game against timber on stream btw..

[pRoTimber]

i dont care stream or not, or how u hack with stream on, or started streaming after the hack game, and lose to me in 2nd game just to say " im not hacking ". im ignorant and dont usually do this, i only posted the replays cuz nirvana said i should support my claim with evidence. so hack or not, u know, i know, god knows. i believe in karma but wtf karma gonna do to a maphacker, so fk this shit, i got more problems in life than to pursue this case that wont even get the hackers banned.

Quick Comments

	TAEdarus:	Chill brother.
	FaDeBadger:	Calm down and go away
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	And you did right

[TargA]

omg dis be sum sirus shit, i tink muse is liek rite

Quick Comments

	TAEdarus:	Y SO SRS?
	deL:	i dnt speek sweedish

[FaDeEvetS]

....right, so if i'm allowed to put up evidence to defend myself, here's a first person VOD, 55:00

i also don't have you added on bnet so sniping you to lose and 'prove im not hacking' is...logistically difficult

edit; ah yep thanks nemo

http://www.justin.tv/steve310/b/303884234

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

....right, so if i'm allowed to put up evidence to defend myself, here's a first person VOD, 55:00

i also don't have you added on bnet so sniping you to lose and 'prove im not hacking' is...logistically difficult

Evets, you forgot the link I think.

Targa, that's quite serious, could you not troll this time please ? You're far too subtle to your own good mate.

Edit : Well, there are a lot of video to watch and they are posted. The accusations have been given by 2 serious GMs to one another serious GM all respected members of the community.

It will need hard work to analyse it because if there is Map Hack it seems relatively well hidden I think. So better give time to time and see all the analysis that will come in the next few days on all the video. I will try to make my own thorough analysis but it will take time.

I know that's not easy for either of Muse, Timber, Evets and their clans because that's serious accusations, but stay calm and wait for good analysis (not only mine ofc) to react.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[FaDeEvetS]

fair enough nemo. I can upload replays against other players if wanted. my stream also has multiple games played on it now for referencing