[dippa]

Originally Posted by PiG

I don't see the purpose of this thread other then to stir crap and have a go at Arnor/revenant.

It's fair to call out people for their mistakes, as long as the intention is to prevent them from occurring in the future - which is more than reasonable considering ACL Sydney's taking place next weekend.

SC2 scene in SEA hasn't had the development time that other games have had to work out issues of interpretation and procedure like other games, so discussion around incidents like this for the next 3 or 4 years (not joking here) is perfectly healthy.

Quick Comments

PiG:

that's true. I think either decision is crap though. need to stop it happening in the first place more importantly.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

He played a game and won. But how can it count as a win on a map that's not even in the map pool or meant to be played in the first place.

Because he beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft

[nGenLight]

Pig: I'm not trying to stir crap at Arnor or Revenant - Don't know where you are reading this from. I'm trying to create a discussion and have a say for Iaguz. Please don't misjudge my intention.

Fair argument, I easily understood there was a multitude of perspective towards this scenario, hence the thread and the poll. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm asking for community discussion/opinion.

Obviously the biggest gain from the existence of this thread is awareness of such an issue, which supports your suggestion that prevention is better than either crappy decisions. That doesn't suggest what happened need not to be carefully analysed. It would suck to be in Iaguz's shoes, I'm sure you understand that.

[zenabi]

If rematch is in order, maybe organise it so the score is 1-1 instead of 2-2 so that the result isnt pinned down to one match and then things may seem fairer. Just an idea if both players have the time to do something like this.

[Peleus]

Super tough situation.

One hand - Iaguz and Rev both at fault, Rev for hosting on an invalid map, and if the map pool and avoiding metal was truly so important for Iaguz then he would be aware of what's in the map pool and bring up the error before the game was completed. Both parties at fault, along with the admins, but hey it's understandable.

On the flip side the rules are the rules. The map pool is the range of maps you can play on for a valid tournament set. If the game wasn't played on a valid map then it shouldn't be counted, regardless of the outcome or how long ago the match occurred.

Following from the simple logic of "Must be within the tournament rules for it to be a valid game -> Outside the rules therefore game invalid" I think the match should be replayed.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Pig: I'm not trying to stir crap at Arnor or Revenant - Don't know where you are reading this from. I'm trying to create a discussion and have a say for Iaguz. Please don't misjudge my intention.

Fair argument, I easily understood there was a multitude of perspective towards this scenario, hence the thread and the poll. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm asking for community discussion/opinion.

Obviously the biggest gain from the existence of this thread is awareness of such an issue, which supports your statement in saying prevention is better than either crappy decisions. That doesn't suggest what happened needs to be carefully analysed. It would suck to be in Iaguz's shoes, I'm sure you understand that.

Agree, original post edited.

Super tough situation.


@peleus, yeah that wording makes it clearer to me why the majority seem to be agreeing that a rematch is in order. However do we blindly follow rules or do we look to do what is most right and fair? Putting myself in the shoes of either of these players I would be mad. If I lose a deciding match with a prize I would be pissed. But if I were to win and then have it taken away and have to regame I think I would possibly be even more furious.

"Following from the simple logic of "Must be within the tournament rules for it to be a valid game -> Outside the rules therefore game invalid" I think the match should be replayed."

This situation has happened to me in the past where I've lost on invalid maps and I've just taken it and left. But maybe a regame was valid? I dunno I just always felt it was wrong to ask for a regame.

Summary: I still feel a regame is more wrong, but I'm no longer so dogmatic in my view.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

Iaguz was willing to suck it up, but I fight for him.

[dippa]

OK, since this has gone down the path of looking towards the future, here's something to think about: what do you do in situations where a regame actually isn't possible?

Say Revz wins the game, but life/family/scheduling issues means he can't actually play another game of Starcraft for the forseeable future (or at least not at a time when it would be reasonable to play a tournament match).

Would it still be fair to force a re-game then?

Whatever decision is made now needs to be applicable to a wide range of situations; this should be thought through carefully.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by PiG

Because he beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft

Say hypothetically a tournament existed with the most absolutely retarded rule ever of no air units allowed by any race. A player participates in this tournament and is later found to have used air units to attack his opponent and win, should he get the victory?

Perhaps still a little silly but a different example - Plunder Down Under which was RvR, a player out of habit picks their main race just before the countdown ends and they play the match and win as their main, should the win be counted?

My point with these is simply to highlight that victory in a vacuum independent of circumstances cannot be the only factor. Rev won his match outside of the rules of the tournament, although some would argue over how major / minor those rules are (valid maps). My view is however than any time it's outside the rules you cannot declare it to be a valid victory.

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

Originally Posted by PiG

Because he beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft

That's kind of silly in my opinion. Say for example game 5 had been on Steppes as Iaguz joked and Iaguz won would that be fine because "He beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft"?? I don't take anything away from Revz win and he obviously played well, but the fact that it was played on a map that was not in the pool means that the game should not have counted. As i said before seeing that the score had been 2-2 and the last map was a **** up i think they should re-game the entire series from even ground, IE 0-0 with the same starting map.

[nGenLight]

I agree that a regame would definitely disadvantage Rev more than Iaguz. But as it is now, it isn't fair to Iaguz at all. Maybe a compromise?

Whats great to see is that both parties are class acts.

Iaguz was willing to suck it up and Revz willing to regame, speaks volumes of the kind of character we have behind our players.

Quick Comments

PiG:

[dippa]

Originally Posted by BiGbiRd

That's kind of silly in my opinion. Say for example game 5 had been on Steppes as Iaguz joked and Iaguz won would that be fine because "He beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft"?? I don't take anything away from Revz win and he obviously played well, but the fact that it was played on a map that was not in the pool means that the game should not have counted. As i said before seeing that the score had been 2-2 and the last map was a **** up i think they should re-game the entire series from even ground, IE 0-0 with the same starting map.

I think PiG is coming from the point of view that it's fair because both players agreed to play the match beforehand; it's not like Iaguz was tied down and threatened with a pair of clippers and shaving cream to play on Steppes of War, for example.

[nGenLight]

^ Good, strong point.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by PiG

However do we blindly follow rules or do we look to do what is most right and fair?

Honestly, blindly follow rules. The rules are there to create a subjective framework for people to follow. When 50% will agree with a decision while 50% will disagree (aka this situation) the only thing you have to fall back on is the rules in place for the tournament. Now if you truly think the ruling is incorrect you can certainly change the rules for future tournaments, but making subjective decisions (which sometimes may even contradict existing rules) is a sure way to invite a shitstorm.

Quick Comments

mGGSouth:

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by PiG

Because he beat his opponent in a game of Starcraft

Yes he beat his opponent on a map that is invalid in the tournament how does that mean he deserves a win? If the roles were reversed and iaguz chose Antiga and won with Antiga not being in the map pool do you think he deserves the win

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

Originally Posted by dippa

I think PiG is coming from the point of view that it's fair because both players agreed to play the match beforehand; it's not like Iaguz was tied down and threatened with a pair of clippers and shaving cream to play on Steppes of War, for example.

I never said he was, how could you say something so horrible??? I know what you mean but my point still stands. Yes it has already been played but if something like this happens and nothing is done it will happen again. What are the point of rules, map pools, admin etc if when something goes wrong they say "Ahh well, it's too late now". Of course this situation favours Iaguz more than Rev as he gets a second chance and will be able to prepare different builds and styles but any other decision defeats the purpose of having competition and if i was Iaguz i would feel a lot more annoyed than Rev will.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by dippa

I think PiG is coming from the point of view that it's fair because both players agreed to play the match beforehand; it's not like Iaguz was tied down and threatened with a pair of clippers and shaving cream to play on Steppes of War, for example.

I think agreeing implies that there was an informed choice to be made with acceptance. If Iaguz didn't think he had a valid reason for rejecting the match I wouldn't say playing it counted towards 'agreeance' to playing on an invalid map.

[Eddie]

Regame is fine, if it happens during or immediately after the series.

Once the series is done, results stand imo. What happens if this occurred mid tournament, player A realises 1 hour later, wrong map was selected, you can't reset all the games that follow, and delay things for everyone else. I know doesn't apply as much this time - but if you are setting a precedent, you have to look at the bigger picture!

Just an unfortunate thing, where both players and admins didn't notice in time.

(1) IPL4 - Nestea vs Squritle - Regame despite Nestea in losing position because his keyboard stopped working.

(2) GSTL - MKP vs Parting - Regame with MKP in a losing position because the computers messed up.

I may be wrong, but weren't these live events, rather than playing from home/separate locations?

Technical difficulties are a completely different thing than slight map selection error i think. Also a lot easier to notice, and in those cases, live support crew were on hand to fix/swap/repair and regame? Also they didn't wait until a fair while after their series to remake the games? - I don't think those examples best support the arguement for a regame in this case.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	NvRossi:

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by dippa

OK, since this has gone down the path of looking towards the future, here's something to think about: what do you do in situations where a regame actually isn't possible?

Say Revz wins the game, but life/family/scheduling issues means he can't actually play another game of Starcraft for the forseeable future (or at least not at a time when it would be reasonable to play a tournament match).

Would it still be fair to force a re-game then?

Whatever decision is made now needs to be applicable to a wide range of situations; this should be thought through carefully.

Yes. The rules should be followed to determine the situation on it's own merits regardless of what external factors (players availability etc) are. There is a correct decision to be made based off the rules, you make that decision. Further problems, such as availability need to be worked on reasonably with both players, and if Rev couldn't play in the foreseeable future then he would be required to forfeit (a crap situation admittedly).

[BaKaiNu]

We (the admins of seasl) are having a discussion over the situation at the moment. We will post the result of the discussion hopefully by tomorrow night. As far as I can tell, it can go either ways, regame or result staying as it is. If it is a regame, we will decide on a date next week for the regame to be played, and a map choice (from the map pool) by Revenant.

That being said, future qualifiers, regarding map pool choices by the loser will have to go through the admin first, to avoid such incident again.

I personally apologize to the parties involved in this incident, and we will do our best to run future qualifiers and tournaments as smoothly as possible.

Regards,
BakaInu

Quick Comments

	PiG:
	Baldie:
	nirvAnA:
	Nemo:	Baka !
	ROOTPetraeus:	baka the hero <3
	x5_dot:

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I may be wrong, but weren't these live events, rather than playing from home/separate locations?

Technical difficulties are a completely different thing than slight map selection error i think. Also a lot easier to notice, and in those cases, live support crew were on hand to fix/swap/repair and regame? Also they didn't wait until a fair while after their series to remake the games? - I don't think those examples best support the arguement for a regame in this case.

You are right, they aren't the best examples here. I merely used them to show the magnitude what could constitute a regame.