[MazEi]

Basically, everyone just needs to understand this one point, let every single member you have play. If you can, as equally spread amount of games between them as possible.

[Volition]

Firstly, the admins are doing well to accomodate everyone, please be respectful when suggesting rules or disagreeing with a rule - there are many people to satisify.

I liked the rule where you had to put your guys out in order of level - we want silvers and bronzes to be in games they have a shot of winning, and not lose because they are against someone two leagues above them. of course, the ace game is excluded from this rule - that was how i understood it, your 4 players needed to be in order, but the ace was obviously excluded. so you could have a plat playing as your fourth but then a gold as your ace. Was that wrong?

Anyway, no matter what the rules are, this will be fantastic. so excited!

Quick Comments

	Zealo:
	breadfan:

[syfChadMann]

Yeah... The rules are being revisited, due to the comments within this thread.
If you have any suggestions, please provide constructive feedback, don't simple say, "this rule is bad, get rid of it" - doesn't help at all.

Maynarde had a big week this week, and is taking a break from all this concious at the moment, over the weekend we will finalise the rule set for this tier.

Thanks, gl hf

Quick Comments

Zealo:

[deL]

Guys placing players in order won't really work cos it's not BSG, it just punishes teams who want to field their weaker players which is really what you don't want to do. Making you have to reshuffle the team week to week is in the spirit of the competition and rewards teams with depth that include silver and bronze players, as they have some lower ranked players to sub out in an important week where they really need a win.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Guys placing players in order won't really work cos it's not BSG, it just punishes teams who want to field their weaker players which is really what you don't want to do. Making you have to reshuffle the team week to week is in the spirit of the competition and rewards teams with depth that include silver and bronze players, as they have some lower ranked players to sub out in an important week where they really need a win.

Thanks deL.
What do you think would be a better solution?
The league order rule is to place players vs others of the same skill. it does not mean you have to play a bronze or a silver every week.. the strongest team that can be represented is 3gold 2 plats. This allows for strong teams and rotation of players. It will be part of this league. Otherwise, we might as well let all plat teams dominate the field, no fun for the low league players, and they just get rofl stomped every week. Sounds great.. -_-

Quick Comments

DeNile:

good work keeping on top of your tier. :)

[Volition]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

Thanks deL.
What do you think would be a better solution?
The league order rule is to place players vs others of the same skill. it does not mean you have to play a bronze or a silver every week.. the strongest team that can be represented is 3gold 2 plats. This allows for strong teams and rotation of players. It will be part of this league. Otherwise, we might as well let all plat teams dominate the field, no fun for the low league players, and they just get rofl stomped every week. Sounds great.. -_-

I cant give you anymore rep Chad, but you are right on the money. Ask the silvers whether they want to play the worst on the other team or whether it should be random - i think the answer is pretty obvious. Tier 5 will be great, am pretty excited.

Who wants to volunteer to coach Zerocraft?

[breadfan]

Honestly I think that enforcing some kind of rotation or mix solves it, so I don't know where you're at with that, if you've discarded it altogether or are just thinking it over... my suggestion is (and this might be too convoluted/too much hassle, if so I apologise)

- Leagues assigned numbers, Bronze=1, Silver=2, Gold=3, Plat=4
- All players "check in" before the match (declare their eligibility) - everyone on the team MUST do this if they're online
- Both teams have their league scores averaged from the checked in players, the average of the lowest team determines how many of each rank you can have
- The lower team declares their team first, but they must not have more than 3 players in their lineup who exceed the lowest team's average
- The team with the higher average then declares their team, but they must not have more than 3 players in their lineup who exceed the lowest team's team average

Again you get in that ugly situation where you need to make a concession if a team has no choice but to field their 5 plat players because no one else is on, but the strength of this system is you could then award a handicap rating based on those scores. One suggestion that comes to mind is if a team has to exceed their 3 player over the average limit, they don't get the bonus point from the ace match (although it's not a throwaway game, because they can still prevent the other team from taking their 2 points!)

In practice:

ToR vs Zerocraft (100% of players online)
ToR - 8 gold, 4 silver, 3 bronze, Avg Score: 2.33
ZeroCraft - 1 Plat, 4 gold, 4 Silver, 3 bronze, Avg Score: 2.25

ToR is the favoured team, teams are not allowed to have more than 3 plat or gold players, ZeroCraft picks their lineup first, ToR picks second. Any number of bronze/silver are allowed.

This ensures balance and should facilitate rotation. On the downside, it is a lot more work to administrate, and suffers some of the same drawbacks as before.

[Zealo]

the three weaknesses of that i can see:
a) it's really, really complicated
b) from what i understand teams don't get chosen until start time (will cause massive delays) and everyone on the roster is expected to be online?
c) it encourages players to deliberately not get promoted so they have more chance of playing.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Zealo

the three weaknesses of that i can see:
a) it's really, really complicated

100% correct, to the point where it could reasonably be a dealbreaker

Originally Posted by Zealo

b) from what i understand teams don't get chosen until start time (will cause massive delays) and everyone on the roster is expected to be online?

Isn't this already how it's going to happen in this tier? Shouldn't take too long. Admins can put onus on team managers to have it all sorted. If it takes longer, teams can get on earlier. One point though that I think could be good - the higher or 'favoured' team gets to pick based on opponent lineup. So say a successful team comes up against a team fielding mostly bronze and silver, it might be looked at as a chance to give some of the other guys a go. The manager might throw in a higher player for the ace game, another to try to ensure at least a draw, and then let the lower guys have a crack

Originally Posted by Zealo

c) it encourages players to deliberately not get promoted so they have more chance of playing.

I disagree. Teams are allowed 3 players over the mark. So if you get promoted, you have a much HIGHER chance of being picked in one of those 3 (i.e. the bulk of the team) positions. I would want to be promoted.
There are some situations, like the teams with more than 3 plat players, where going gold to plat probably could work against you, especially for that one important top of the table clash, but on the whole I still think you'd benefit.

One other disadvantage I can think of is if a team has a really crappy turn out one week, and no one over bronze shows up, then the other team, who might do everything right by turning up on time, doesn't get the bonus point for the ace match.

A little extra perspective...
I can only work with the assumption of all players in attendance for this which obviously wont be the case. Still, it's a good indicator.

Every team's score is around the 2.x mark - 1 team (HoH) is currently below a score of 2.0 and 2 teams (QED Krrn & Marinu Dropu) are higher than a score of 3.0.

When Krrn and MDropu play, they can each have a max of 3 plats and any number of golds. So the game will probably look like 2 gold and 3 plat vs 2 gold and 3 plat (obviously this is their most competitive match and assuming that all favourites win all matches, will decide first place)

When MDropu plays HoH, they can only field 3 players silver or above. Since they only have 1 silver player and 0 bronze, they have to break it. Which is fine, but they don't receive a bonus point from the ace game as a result.

Aside from these 3 teams, every other team is pretty close, with most falling between 2.6 and 2.9. I also think it's a reasonable expectation that the higher league players are more likely to show up than lower leagues so I don't expect any of these teams to drop to a score of below 2.0. So the complicated part only really enters in for matches featuring those 3 outlier teams. The rest of the time it's probably as simple as "3 gold maximum"

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by breadfan

Honestly I think that enforcing some kind of rotation or mix solves it, so I don't know where you're at with that, if you've discarded it altogether or are just thinking it over... my suggestion is (and this might be too convoluted/too much hassle, if so I apologise)

- Leagues assigned numbers, Bronze=1, Silver=2, Gold=3, Plat=4
- All players "check in" before the match (declare their eligibility) - everyone on the team MUST do this if they're online
- Both teams have their league scores averaged from the checked in players, the average of the lowest team determines how many of each rank you can have
- The lower team declares their team first, but they must not have more than 3 players in their lineup who exceed the lowest team's average
- The team with the higher average then declares their team, but they must not have more than 3 players in their lineup who exceed the lowest team's team average

Again you get in that ugly situation where you need to make a concession if a team has no choice but to field their 5 plat players because no one else is on, but the strength of this system is you could then award a handicap rating based on those scores. One suggestion that comes to mind is if a team has to exceed their 3 player over the average limit, they don't get the bonus point from the ace match (although it's not a throwaway game, because they can still prevent the other team from taking their 2 points!)

In practice:

ToR vs Zerocraft (100% of players online)
ToR - 8 gold, 4 silver, 3 bronze, Avg Score: 2.33
ZeroCraft - 1 Plat, 4 gold, 4 Silver, 3 bronze, Avg Score: 2.25

ToR is the favoured team, teams are not allowed to have more than 3 plat or gold players, ZeroCraft picks their lineup first, ToR picks second. Any number of bronze/silver are allowed.

This ensures balance and should facilitate rotation. On the downside, it is a lot more work to administrate, and suffers some of the same drawbacks as before.

We did consider options like this. but it will be quite difficult for us to admin, so this concept was disregarded by Maynarde and I early on... We've also considered assigning points to each league, 1 , 2 , 3 and 4 points for . With teams able to select any mix of team as long as it does not surpass 17 total points..

At this stage I'm happy with the league order and 2 per week rotation system. Also that no more that 2 plat+ players can play each week (again, these rules can be re-explored if a team is having trouble meeting the criteria and if lots of players get promoted). If a team knows they are going against a team like, TCP (1 silver, the rest gold and a few plats) they know not to send their bronze and silver line up out. they know that they are going to be a hard team to vs.. so it becomes more strategic, play this guy now, or wait to have a stronger line up next week when your against a stronger team. Or, send the strong team against a week team to get a good score from it.. but sacrifice a few points by sending a B team against another teams A team - if you think their A team is too strong for your own A team.. which might be a waste of the A team.. This is the type of strategy we are trying to develop with the rotation rules etc. I think this adds a new dynamic to the matches also..

Maynarde had a busy week, and is taking a bit of a break tonight, but I can assure you - that we will be looking at the rules and the suggestions to develop a new fairer system that will hope to appease everyone.
Until then, Good luck, have fun

Quick Comments

breadfan:

strategic element of choosing a team based on opponent absolutely necessary!

[nOtse]

Think this was missed earleir as main post has not been edited.

Hi Chad,

We at Team HoH have the following changes to our line up:

- - rythmatik - Moved up Division
- - EoWxBrutos - New to roster

Thanks

[syfChadMann]

yeah, I know there are a few changes to check up on.. I'll go thru the rosters tomorrow..

[syfChadMann]

This Message will be PM'd out to all managers, once I get all your sc2sea.com details...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Team Leaders,

The time has come to submit your team lineup for week 1.
Please submit your lineup by 18/01/2012 by 8pm ADET.
Remember to include your player's race as well.
If the player does not show up, you can use the "Wildcard" rule which you are entitled to use one sub per week for your division.
If one of your players do not show up and you have no subs left, your team will be walkovered for that particular match.

Remember that all games are best of 3 and the map list would be the starting map.
This can be found: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3272

Please be aware, a rule forcing the lower league players to play first is enforced. If you submit a team not in this order we will rearrange it for you. Please nominated a 1-4 order of your players in their league order and specify a particular player to be your Ace player. This play can be from any league. Once both teams have published their line up, the match ups will be posted in that weeks news thread. If a team does not submit their line up in time they will receive a warning, multiple warnings may incur deduction of league points - extreme cases will see the team removed from the league altogether.

[syfChadMann]

I should have added to the PM, that all managers are expected to PM their line up.. DO NOT POST THE LINE UP.

Also, if your team is vsing TA (this week that would be TCP) please do not PM your line up to me.. Maynarde will have to handle all the TA matches - As I'm playing on the TA team.. And do not want anyone to think there is a conflict of interest.

EDIT: ohh man.. I just triple posted.. fml..

Also, if both teams submit their line ups early, then they will know the match ups sooner.. 8pm Wednesday 18th is the deadline... get them in asap... gl hf

Can all team managers please add me on Skype? 'nicolasjrusso'
We will be setting up a group skype chat for all managers and Maynarde and I. To have an easy communication medium between admins and the team managers. Thanks

[FSBenAD]

I definitely like what you guys are trying to do about rotating players, I was just worried about the complication of picking my side each week and having to look into 3 weeks ahead to work out when people were on holidays so no one played 3 weeks in a row. Since my team roster is only smallish.

2 changes per week sounds like the best way forward, with the added note that there is an expectation that rosters should change often and anyone who is not doing so will get a warning, then a penalty?

When can we expect confirmation of the rules for lineup choices?

Obviously depending on which we go with, changes who I would put up to play in week 1.

Thanks again to ChadMann and Maynarde for their hard working and for listening to our feedback.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

[syfChadMann]

I Think, Maynarde and I have decided on a final edition to the rules. Which will be posted up shortly..

Also, as the match line ups are sent in to me I'll post them in the weekly thread (http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3272).

If teams abusive this information of knowing their match ups before the deadline and trying to dodge an unfavourable match up.. they will start costing Wildcards.. and may result in line ups not being posted for anyone until 24 hrs before the match.

For the teams that haven't sent in your line ups.. as soon as I have both teams, I will post up the line ups.. so if you want more practice time, get the line ups in early!

This just in... SEA Bet for Tier 5!!!!
(http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=60285&postcount=17)

[NovaReapz]

Good Luck guys

[Zealo]

we can't decide on a lineup until we know what the finalized rules are...

[Maynarde]

Ok guys, here's the old rules with the new rules. Chad and I have discussed em some more and think it's pretty fair but it's of course up for discussion. Line ups are needed from every team before WEDNESDAY 9pm AEDT so we have a little time to talk about them before locking anything in. REALLY reluctant to change any rules while a season is active unless there's a glaring issue.

1. Submit your LINE UP (5 players) 24 HOURS before play time.

2. Your starting line up has 1 WILDCARD A WEEK to cover no-shows, 4 SUBS for full line up.

3. Players go out in LEAGUE ORDER.
If there are a bunch that are the same league, then you can bring them out whatever order you wish. I think anyone that has seen a lot of BSG games will agree that there's a pretty huge skill gap between an and an . It won't be a close game. ChadMann feels pretty strongly about keeping this rule.

4. You must CHANGE TWO PLAYERS of your playing line-up weekly
In the interest of rotation now that the "3 week rule" doesn't exist, we're upping the number of players to be rotated each week to 2.

5. Teams going out to play must have NO MORE than 2 PLAT (OR HIGHER).
Again, this is in the interest of everyone getting a chance and no team being too OP. This particular rule may be removed in the event of many many promotions. I'll be happy to remove it when most players are Plat or higher because then that means the idea behind the Tier is working

If I'm forgetting any rules I'll edit this post.

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Perfect!
	FSBenAD:	Thankyou and Chad, think this gets us all where we want to be, without too much complication
	TABag:	#winning! Seems fair and well suited to provide some rather enjoyable match ups!
	Zealo:	awesome :)

[breadfan]

Can I clarify.. Say your team includes 3 golds

Does the order they are going out in have to be locked in the 24 hours earlier? Or do teams choose the order on the night?