[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.

OK.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.

Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity,

Indeed we disagree on that point. It's driving us too far away of the main subject to discuss it here. If it's really neede for the discussion we will open another thread for that but I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.

I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:

• Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
• Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.

No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.

I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too.

You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.

Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.

Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Edit : Sorry, I won't be able to do you're replay analysis tonight, it's already 11 O'Clock and I had too many things to do including this discussion. Really sorry, I promised and failed. Will try to do it tomorow.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:

• Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
• Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.

No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.

The actual rule as I understand it is "8. You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration."

Now with no disrespect intended, your additional 'proposition' is exactly the sc2sea.com link that I'm referring to. There is a compulsory link with the website if you 'fail' the first criteria. If you have that additional proposition in there the rules become "Anyone from SEA automatically qualifies and you can also play if you're well liked on sc2sea.com". Now, the danger of challenging rules such as this is that it can imply that admin's can't make qualified or fair decisions. That is not my intent. I simply wish to point out that it creates ambiguity, and having objective rather than subjective rules with regards to eligibility removes these issues and sets a clear precedent for the future running of long multi season successful clan league.

You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.

As you can probably tell I'm all for objective rather than subjective rules, which is why I believe motivation shouldn't be considered in eligibility. There could be a player I think is a total d@#, but I acknowledge that they have the right to play in something. I'd also like to point out that anyone with a chance of winning automatically has a 'they are doing it for the money' motivation assigned to their actions, while anyone who isn't very strong has a 'they are doing it for the fun' motivation assigned to their actions. It pretty clearly shows that we don't know, and no one will ever know what is truly going through the mind of any player who signs up for a SEACL, so I don't think it's fair to judge their eligibility based on it.

Edit #2 (#1 was grammer): I realise I perhaps didn't answer your question fully. I'd also point out I can't accept that you are defined as part of a community, or not part of a community, purely because of your nationality of current residence. I think actions speak louder than words, which is why I think involvement in SEA (not sc2sea.com), laddering, being part of clans etc is a more telling tale of eligibility.

Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.

Firstly, I don't actually speak Korean, I've never had conversations with Tiger, yCh etc, and no, I don't know their motivation for playing. I've never had anyone ask my motivation for playing SC2 either, so I don't see why anyone should have to justify it to anyone else. I'd also like to point out that although this conversation has definitely kicked off on a SPR related situation, I'm trying to establish and contribute rules for all players / clans in this SEACL and all future ones. What's going to happen if a KR pro joins TA and ladders for a month on SEA before the announcement of SEACL#3? What if they ladder for a month AND post on sc2sea.com? What if they ladder for a week but become well liked here? What if they ladder for 6 months but don't post on sc2sea.com? What if pro's are allowed in the future, but at other times they have been disallowed? It's a recipe for a massive shitfight and disaster in future events when quite frankly it can be sorted now with next to no issues.

What is the down side of having objective rules stated clearly now? I truly don't see the problem with the rule change I suggested above, but would love some feedback on that specifically. I genuinely don't know if I'm actually arguing for all the SPR 'pro's' to be excluded or not, I haven't looked up their ladder history, I'm just trying to find where abouts a fair line in the sand can be drawn for the benefit of the community.

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Firstly, it's your opinion, and opinions are never 'wrong', simply disagreed with. What about if they've played 200 games over 3 months? 500 over 6 months? Once more I think there is a lot stronger link to the rules simply being more weighted towards 'liked on sc2sea.com' rather than an objective 'they play this much on SEA ladder'. It highlights the exact ambiguity that's created by not having a definition in place.