[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Really want to put my 2c in, but scared it will create a shit storm so here we go. Please remember that I'm only representing MY opinion not SPRs, and looking for a rational discussion surrounding the issue. I also have no influence over who SPR decides to field, that's up to the managers. Now hopefully the shitstorm disclaimers are out of the way....

Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.

Why is it we have no standardized rule for who is eligible and who is not? What is considered 'active' on the server? Keep in mind a few things though...
(...)
so if we don't lay down clear and objective rules this shitfight may happen every season (not just with SPR).

Unclear rules I think are what's causing the most issues.

In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.

In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.

They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.

Originally i beleive reasons given for their exclusion is they were on teams, and therefore ineligable. No worries, but other players are playing for clans who are on teams also.

They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing?

He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.

I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.

That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.

Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/

Look at his posts : http://www.sc2sea.com/search.php?searchid=36411



He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.

If the others want to be part of the community, they can.

But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?

Finally what about tournaments you say? Clearly tgun etc commonly plays in more sc2sea tournaments showing they are a part of the sc2sea community? Yes, youre right clearly they aren't actively joining in the community there,, but that's only because they were banned from most of them. It's a pretty silly chicken and egg scenario when you use the fact that they aren't allowed to be part of the sc2sea community as further justification for ... well ... not allowing them to be part of the sc2sea community.

That's not participating in tournament that makes you part of the community. Look at me.

Having stirred the pot I'll leave it there. Please remember these are MY views, not SPRs in any way and they never knew I was posting this.

Point taken, don't worry.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by dippa

You're going down the right path. This is the same problem that cropped up with the FadeEvetS hacking situation in that there isn't a clear policy as to what constitutes eligibility.

I don't think setting an amount of "games" could work; anything under 100-150 is really quite easy to hit for mercenaries. But like I said, this is a good starting point.

Acknowledging your post, however I'll address it in some of the 'what is part of the community' themed response below.

Originally Posted by Nemo

Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.

In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.

I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.

In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.

They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.

This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.

Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity, but that's exactly what 'leave it to the admins to decide' does. 'No unless the admins decide' is in every scenario a case by case decision and the definition of ambiguous. Since we talk about rules being a representation of a communities will, I'd draw a parallel to laws in our society. Imagine the outcry if instead of written laws we simply had a situation where "A judge will decide if what you did was appropriate". Clearly this would never work, with disagreements happening left right and centre.

Having set eligibility criteria allows an independent yes or no to be given without opinion or ambiguity. If someone however finds a way to abuse the spirit of the rules, the admins can still come in and change them, just like laws in our society need to be changed from time to time.

He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.

No problem, I was more just trying to point out that even people considered part of the community don't necessarily play 100's of games on SEA ladder.

That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.

Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/

He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.

If the others want to be part of the community, they can.

This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.

Addressing dippa's point - yes you're right that for mercs perhaps even 100 games isn't a high 'barrier'. But at what game count do they stop being a merc playing to get games up for eligibility and simply become a SEA ladder player playing? Having a reasonable number of games (25 imo but I'm open to discussion on exact numbers) highlights a few things.

1) They have a history of playing on SEA, as shown even a high number of games may not be a barrier to pro players trying to do it solely to gain eligibility, so why have it high for the following downsides.

2) Eligibility should apply to ALL players. Its easy to say that the highest tier players may find 100 games easy, but what about the BSG player who enjoys playing on SEA because it's less competition than say the KR ladder? What if they have friends playing on the SEA ladder? Once more the highest tiered player get the most focus and scrutiny, however it must be fair to all. This is also why I'm not keen on 'sc2sea.com' contribution requirements such as streaming etc. No one expects this of those in the lower leagues, why is it different barriers for the better players? Rules should be consistent and fair to all.

3) Pro players sometimes do not play a heap of ladder games. Let's face it often they are practising in customs, amongst friends, etc. I think it's unreasonable to make them play hundreds of games when many top tier players in the SEA community may not do that naturally anyway.

But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?

I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too. Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.

OK.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.

Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity,

Indeed we disagree on that point. It's driving us too far away of the main subject to discuss it here. If it's really neede for the discussion we will open another thread for that but I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.

I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:

• Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
• Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.

No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.

I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too.

You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.

Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.

Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Edit : Sorry, I won't be able to do you're replay analysis tonight, it's already 11 O'Clock and I had too many things to do including this discussion. Really sorry, I promised and failed. Will try to do it tomorow.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:

• Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
• Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.

No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.

The actual rule as I understand it is "8. You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration."

Now with no disrespect intended, your additional 'proposition' is exactly the sc2sea.com link that I'm referring to. There is a compulsory link with the website if you 'fail' the first criteria. If you have that additional proposition in there the rules become "Anyone from SEA automatically qualifies and you can also play if you're well liked on sc2sea.com". Now, the danger of challenging rules such as this is that it can imply that admin's can't make qualified or fair decisions. That is not my intent. I simply wish to point out that it creates ambiguity, and having objective rather than subjective rules with regards to eligibility removes these issues and sets a clear precedent for the future running of long multi season successful clan league.

You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.

As you can probably tell I'm all for objective rather than subjective rules, which is why I believe motivation shouldn't be considered in eligibility. There could be a player I think is a total d@#, but I acknowledge that they have the right to play in something. I'd also like to point out that anyone with a chance of winning automatically has a 'they are doing it for the money' motivation assigned to their actions, while anyone who isn't very strong has a 'they are doing it for the fun' motivation assigned to their actions. It pretty clearly shows that we don't know, and no one will ever know what is truly going through the mind of any player who signs up for a SEACL, so I don't think it's fair to judge their eligibility based on it.

Edit #2 (#1 was grammer): I realise I perhaps didn't answer your question fully. I'd also point out I can't accept that you are defined as part of a community, or not part of a community, purely because of your nationality of current residence. I think actions speak louder than words, which is why I think involvement in SEA (not sc2sea.com), laddering, being part of clans etc is a more telling tale of eligibility.

Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.

Firstly, I don't actually speak Korean, I've never had conversations with Tiger, yCh etc, and no, I don't know their motivation for playing. I've never had anyone ask my motivation for playing SC2 either, so I don't see why anyone should have to justify it to anyone else. I'd also like to point out that although this conversation has definitely kicked off on a SPR related situation, I'm trying to establish and contribute rules for all players / clans in this SEACL and all future ones. What's going to happen if a KR pro joins TA and ladders for a month on SEA before the announcement of SEACL#3? What if they ladder for a month AND post on sc2sea.com? What if they ladder for a week but become well liked here? What if they ladder for 6 months but don't post on sc2sea.com? What if pro's are allowed in the future, but at other times they have been disallowed? It's a recipe for a massive shitfight and disaster in future events when quite frankly it can be sorted now with next to no issues.

What is the down side of having objective rules stated clearly now? I truly don't see the problem with the rule change I suggested above, but would love some feedback on that specifically. I genuinely don't know if I'm actually arguing for all the SPR 'pro's' to be excluded or not, I haven't looked up their ladder history, I'm just trying to find where abouts a fair line in the sand can be drawn for the benefit of the community.

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Firstly, it's your opinion, and opinions are never 'wrong', simply disagreed with. What about if they've played 200 games over 3 months? 500 over 6 months? Once more I think there is a lot stronger link to the rules simply being more weighted towards 'liked on sc2sea.com' rather than an objective 'they play this much on SEA ladder'. It highlights the exact ambiguity that's created by not having a definition in place.

[JaFF]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Originally Posted by Nemo

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

Only if he's not from SEA. SEA residents are automatically eligible for SEACL.
Stephano is an honorary member of my clan but i don't see him playing for SEACL neither.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	C'est ça. TCPStephano OMG !!!!
	krycek:	Frog speaks the truth

[JaFF]

Ah right. My bad. So that criteria is just for non-SEA residents. That makes more sense, silly me.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

no problem :)

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

I didn't mean a player from SEA (resident, nationality of one of the countries in SEA), but some one who is NOT from SEA but still is player on SEA server since 2 seasons. 2 seasons and 50 games seems to short for me. 6 month seems more legit to me. But the important thing is that the guy is involved in the community (not compulsory via sc2sea).

SEA residents or nationals are legit automatically in my opinion, no matter their participation to whatever, unless they are banned of course.