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x5.Revenant · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Do you seriously mean this?

Just some samples of verbal abuse:

I don't agree with many other things you said in your post Edarus, but ok I'm lazy to quote and elaborate further. Goodnight

I believe the case about EvetS will die down the moment the proper punishment is given to him, not just for his constant wrongdoings, but also to set an example for the hackers out there.

**nGenLight** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 2:12 AM

I think most everyone is aware of the gravity of the punishment that is getting classified as a maphacker - that is the harshest punishment that will follow him wherever he goes.

My only problem I have is the fact that a serious offense like maphacking is only formally punished by a 3 months ban from the biggest SEA community. In comparison - Blizzard simply closed accounts, Bored Aussie has an at least 12 month period before the subject could even appeal for an unban. Did TA accept Sensei 3 months after his crime? Or did it take a good x years. A 3 months ban to a maphacker (an obvious lying one aswell) is very dangerous precedence.

I'm calling for at least a 6 months to 12 months ban. He can get his second chance then. Also adding to the fact that now he is a proven liar (shady character - nice outside, dodgey secrets) - This is not the type of person nor the type of offense you want to show leniency towards - He didn't argue with an admin, he didn't troll like a Zanooku, what he did was an direct crime towards competitive gaming, had multiple chances to fess up and continued to lie - Why would you show leniency to someone like that? There are situations and issues we can be lenient about - I don't think we should show the rest of the world and people contemplating maphacking that this is something we would be in anyways lenient towards.

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:	agreed and afaik he only copped 2 months
	asdfSchnitzel:
	breadfan:	I like the idea of having the ban time set in stone
	syfPhoenix:
	TragicHero:

x5.Revenant · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I think most everyone is aware of the gravity of the punishment that is getting classified as a maphacker - that is the harshest punishment that will follow him wherever he goes.

My only problem I have is the fact that a serious offense like maphacking is only formally punished by a 3 months ban from the biggest SEA community. In comparison - Blizzard simply closed accounts, Bored Aussie has an at least 12 month period before the subject could even appeal for an unban. Did TA accept Sensei 3 months after his crime? Or did it take a good x years. A 3 months ban to a maphacker (an obvious lying one aswell) is very dangerous precedence.

I'm calling for at least a 6 months to 12 months ban. He can get his second chance then. Also adding to the fact that now he is a proven liar (shady character - nice outside, dodgey secrets) - This is not the type of person nor the type of offense you want to show leniency towards - He didn't argue with an admin, he didn't troll like a Zanooku, what he did was an direct crime towards competitive gaming, had multiple chances to fess up and continued to lie - Why would you show leniency to someone like that? There are situations and issues we can be lenient about - I don't think we should show the rest of the world and people contemplating maphacking that this is something we would be in anyways lenient towards.

Totally agree there. Would he had admitted to his multiple maphacking instances, instead of lying about just maphacking ONCE, a three month ban would have sounded reasonable. But leaving it any less than a long term ban seems totally unjustifiable, given that he went through a series of atrocious actions to dealing with this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elimzke

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

He's already told the community that "he realized it was stupid shit" to hack with his confession post. However, in his "I realized what I was doing was stupid shit and I admit it"(confession) post, he lied over and over again. If the situation is just left hanging, it's just an indicator for future hackers to say "Hey guys! Hack your hearts out! If you're ever caught and you have no bad records on you, feel free to run away scot-free and defend yourself and lie to everyone in the community until you're eventually pinned to the corner with concrete evidence!".

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

FvRelimzkE · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 2:40 AM

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

Quick Comments

asdfSchnitzel:

**TAEdgE** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elimzke

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

Allegedly he hacked vs JazBas in a Community Open, was bought up long ago by JazBas but dismissed back then. Don't know if that was proven or not.

DeekZ · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 3:54 AM

Damn this thing is crazy, lots of difference in opinions.

I think the best cause of action would just be to ban him for a few months from the site, and then leave it alone. The stigma he's going to carry around for the rest of his days if he continues playing under that ID is going to suck enough as it is, and with all eyes on him now he most likely won't be hacking any time soon..

Not to mention whatever punishment is handed down by his clan, whether that be removal or something else. It sucks this whole thing had to happen and that he felt like he had to lie about it but certainly everyone can understand why he would lie about it.. considering the backlash we're seeing now that we know for sure.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

**Cordance** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revenant

He's already told the community that "he realized it was stupid shit" to hack with his confession post. However, in his "I realized what I was doing was stupid shit and I admit it"(confession) post, he lied over and over again. If the situation is just left hanging, it's just an indicator for future hackers to say "Hey guys! Hack your hearts out! If you're ever caught and you have no bad records on you, feel free to run away scot-free and defend yourself and lie to everyone in the community until you're eventually pinned to the corner with concrete evidence!".

You know I kind of like the idea of hackers only getting exposed when you have evidence ... I mean I like mob justice as much as the next guy (in the mob) but the amount of hacking and smurfing accusations that get thrown around I would rather the precedent be set that we need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. The thought of someone getting lucky by sending mutas around the map so they dont get spotted and running into a drop ship and suddenly get cast out of the community should be something to give you pause.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	This post reeks of maphacker... JOKES!
	nirvAnA:

**Nemo** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 9:06 AM

Well, I hate what I'm going to do because I will revive a story that is now "closed". But I guess you can't get away with bad behavior without being punished for it forever.

I wanted to just show it to Nirvana and Edge so they can pass the information to the main character of this story but Nirvana absolutly wanted me to post it openly.

I have fumed a lot about the lynching of Evets because we have a precedent when someone blatantly cheated, never admitted and got away with it because he had powerful friends. I hate it when justice applies to you differently whether you have powerful allies or not so I will refresh some memories about the Meany case:
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php...ighlight=Meany

The videos : http://fr.justin.tv/nemoulysses/videos

At that time, Cosmos and I were utterly surprised that everybody did not see the obvious. Cosmos, by the way, never came back here, really disappointed by the way things went.

So I don't want any harm done to Meany, he got away with it, good for him. But I really would like to remind people of the fact that men justice must be very careful with punishment because it can carry its own injustice.

Being too harsh with Evets would be unfair considering that other cheaters who never admitted anything simply get away with it. And it was only 6 month ago. Poor Sensei who admitted too still hear for his own deeds 5 years after ... What message do we send ? Don't admit, that's far better for you ?

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	Exactly.
	FaDeBadger:	Wise words, was thinking of that case myself but couldn't find it
	nirvAnA:	The double standards in this thread and that one is eye opening
	TAScarecrow:	hacker gets away with it so we must be nice to evetS?
	sRFullstop:
	EveMassacrisM:	Yep. MeaNy clearly was hacking yet no punishment was given out.

**nirvAnA** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 9:49 AM

Summary of meany thread: (full thread)

Cosmos genuinely felt Meany was hacking, made a proper post with analysis based on incriminating evidence to warn the community but instead got shot down and attacked for making accusations. The comments even pressured Cosmos to end up apologizing!!
Nemo got attacked too for analysing the games and bringing suspicious plays to attention and was even accused of being cosmo's smurf
That is really ironic to see if you compare this thread to meanys thread, because of the influence of the people defending meany.
Alot of posts supporting the idea he map hacked by Zergirl, Dox, MassacrisM ended up being ignored.
Disappointed at what happened after trying to alert the community, comos left SC2SEA and never returned.
Meany got away scot free.

Replay:

http://terranimba.com/replay/3OJk3YzUUOVj2Z

MUST WATCH Vods of the blatant hacking from the replay:

http://www.justin.tv/nemoulysses/b/289420237
http://www.justin.tv/nemoulysses/b/289421746

Revenant, muse, riichard and all those involved in the analysis of replays in this thread please watch this and tell me your conclusion, viewing it with the same level of objectivity as EvetS games. How different it is from evets other "blatant hacking" replays?

This was actually a big mistake on my part, as I was busy with a project at that time and did not watch the replay/vods back then to make a formal SC2SEA decision. I just wrote a disclaimer in the OP based on the comments I was seeing to keep things in the thread civil.

Dox felt it was incriminating, as well as Timber, TALost, Zerggirl, MassacrisM, V_enDetta and the SPR team led by Master, who felt it too suspicious rightly removed him from SPR. SPR is an awesome clan btw whom i love. They were however among the minority, with the majority of his friends supporting meany.

There was also surprisingly absolutely ZERO pressure then to make a formal community decision about the matter.

As such a conclusion was never reached, meany got away scot free and the thread was closed by Baka as things were getting out of hand. (There was hardly any drama on sc2sea at that time)

I think the lesson to learn from this is how not to let the certain vocal members alter your decision. Meany had the support of friends and ended up getting away scot free.

His friends were basically doing what FaDe was doing in this thread. Supporting their mates like any good friend would do. Everyone has double standards when it comes to your friends as compared to a person you do not know. Had evets being from another big clan instead of FaDe, I feel yes he will be condemned by all, but this thread and suggestions here will have turned up being very different. Look what happened to meany for instance, he got away SCOT FREE!!! And it is not the fault of his friends either its just human nature to stick up for your mates.

Its just that meany had ALOT of credible friends like Jazbas (whos totally awesome btw who goes out on a limb to support his buddy), Zergtastic (BSGadmin) and some of TA, and that made it look like there "wasn't enough evidence" and cosmos was seen as a "rager / baseless acuser" when that couldn't be further from the truth.

EvetS was a by far much more contributive member, he even came out to admit his hacking rather then deny it like meany - what is he rewarded with? A life ban instead of getting away scot free? He now basically faces a SC2 death sentence, which even I now feel pressured to give because of some very vocal comments from influential members in this thead but I still don't believe is the right thing to do as it offers no redemption, which is the road evets has started on by choosing to admit his hacking instead of denying it.

As nemo has said the message now being sent is if you're caught deny it at all costs and you get away scot free. Rather than what the message should be - When suspected admit it, do your time and after doing community work slowly get rehabilitated into the community, it is not the end of SC2 for you if you are able to admit your mistake.

Rage · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 10:32 AM

I don't think a more significant ban is warranted. 3months is more than satisfactory and I agree that any more of a ban would likely simply result in leaving the community for good, which then makes the punishment irrelevant.

I just want people to stop using his "confession" and his "clean record" as mitigating factors when they speak about him, because both were clearly lies - he had absolutely not only done it once, and his clean record was only due to not yet being caught - and not something to be admired.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Whole heartedly agree long ban = leave community = irrelevant punishment
	Volition:	The punishment is satisfactory. So many people are just quoting "the floodgates will open" re cheaters. Good to see someone who is level headed

NvRossi · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 10:47 AM

I know for sure that meany admitted to stream cheating and not to map hacking to a friend. 100% just as bad though

Quick Comments

TATheMoonStar:

Correct, MeaNy was not hacking

**nirvAnA** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TARossi

I know for sure that meany admitted to stream cheating and not to map hacking to a friend. 100% just as bad though

For those who need context, here it is.

+ [context] +

But hes explaining all his actions here, saying he wanted to scan.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=24422&postcount=69

Meany: "I had to admit, that it really did seem like I was maphacking. But here's the explanation that you guys would want to hear. If you check my command centers, none of them had enough mana for a scan. I cannot remember every single detail of what moving my camera to a certain spot meant, but I am definitely sure that I was attempting to give a scan. "

In response to that clock replied:

+ Show +

In response to that EveMassacrisM replied:

+ Show +

Both these responses were never addressed.

Point is - if he was stream cheating he wouldn't even bother to scan there was just a single marine there he would know that - This means EITHER his "stream cheating" excuse which he confessed to a friend privately was a lie OR his explanation given in that thread was a lie so how can his other words be trusted? And yea don't see how stream cheating can be defended since that's cheating as well, like you have said Rossi, its the same thing but people there (if aware he stream cheated) were defending him for it.

Quick Comments

tex0111_slyguy_golden:

Sanctify · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 10:50 AM

Oh now we wouldn't want that...I think this community would really miss the presence of a liar and hacker if they were to leave. Lets be lenient so they can come back and **** with us some more, and show other hackers that we like having them here.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

just go away already

Volition · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 10:58 AM

I agree with Nirvanas post - it is funny how some members are extremely vocal in this thread about cheaters but downplay it and deny it (despite the evidence) in the old thread. Sorta interesting how the "cheaters are the scum of the earth and should be hanged" is in this thread, but they are 100% sure Meany did not cheated in the other game, and ignore posts much better than those made by themselves in this thread.

Is the moral of the story that if you are going to cheat, you better have high friends in the sc2sea community??

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAEdgE:	i dont like your posts

Spud · Mon, 2nd-Jan-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volition

Is the moral of the story that if you are going to cheat, you better have high friends in the sc2sea community??

LOL. High friends a;lkdfja;lkdf. That makes me laugh.

On the hacking, Ive always wondered how retarded the motives for hacking are. Why do people actually do it, is it to be famous on the interwebs at a computer game? So you can act like a mobster on b.net or something? If you get a power-trip from Starcraft u might need more than a 3month ban, maybe a 3year stint is a psych ward.

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

The voice of Voices voices its opinion

TAriiChard · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 11:42 AM

Hi Nirvana,

Firstly, may you please add a feature to the website where if someone types up a response on a thread and then accidentally clicks on a link, they can click on "back" and what they wrote before will appear instead of disappear. Thanks... TT

For me, I've always been an "innocent until proven guilty" type of guy. In MeaNy's situation, sure there was a lot of evidence proving that he was a map hacker but there wasn't that defining piece of evidence to prove him 100% guilty like that piece of evidence I gave in the FaDeEvets case. Even if 90% of me thought that he was guilty, what if that 10% of MeaNy being not guilty was correct then how bad would we all feel if we convicted him and banned him from sc2sea and events as well as imprint the "hacker" tag on his forehead. If I could go back in time I would have listened to Nemo and Cosmos and given more constructive responses but I would have continued to defend MeaNy which is similar to what FaDe has done for Evets.

The differences between the two situations can be seen from their respected clan's responses to the situations. In MeaNy's case, his team came in defense by saying that he was "too noob as a maphack player" and "meany is one of the most fcking noob in our clan". This was followed by a statement by SPR stating that MeaNy had left their team because he didn't want to ruin their image and that a few members didn't support him... What did FaDe do? They defended the shit out of Evets to such an extent that it made them look bad when more evidence came out that concluded that Evets was a hacker. Where am I going with this? I really have no idea but I guess it’s to say that the two events were extremely different with a diverse of responses from numerous parties that would have altered the decision of whether or not these two players were guilty or not…

In short, even though there was a lot of evidence against MeaNy it didn’t feel as though he was 100% guilty and due to my nature I felt inclined to defend him. FaDeEvets was 100% guilty with plenty of evidence thus why he has been punished.

Also, saying that MeaNy got away scot free is incorrect as he was kind of forced to leave the clan (he wouldn’t stay in a clan that didn’t believe in what he said) while Evets hasn’t been forced to leave the clan, and we do give MeaNy shit for being a hacker (in a joking manner).

Quick Comments

	Meatex:	Most FaDe members didn't defend his hacking, just that he be granted a 2nd chance
	ChaynesOre:	It was more about the due process of providing damning evidence, which hadn't been fulfilled entirely before your replay
	AxSGRiM:

Meatex · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 11:57 AM

My first statement (made prior to the damning evidence provided by riichard) can be seen here for reference -> http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=190

I can certainly understand the anger that people feel when he gets just a 3 month ban and community service despite even lying in his admission of guilt but I also understand that he is young and immature - while not an excuse for what he did I do hope people realise that warrants a chance at redemption at some point in the future.

FaDe feels that at the time of my first statement the punishment was adequate and even with the full story now clear I strongly believe that completely removing him from the community is the wrong path to take.
I am very disappointed in his actions, not only the hacking but lying to our faces - even in his admission post - and as he betrayed our trust it with heavy hear that I must announce some further extension of his punishment from FaDe's end.
Though we will not kick and ostracize him just to save the reputation of FaDe - we will support him as friends when he hopefully get things IRL sorted and returns to do his time - but we feel it necessary to extend the punishment to an indefinite ban from all FaDe events both internal and external until such time that we feel he has earned back the trust that he has so squandered.
This is not a kick from FaDe as it is an extended form of severe probation. Some may disagree with this choice but I stand by my original thoughts on the issue.

This was a very tough decision for FaDe. We do not support hacking / cheating in any way shape or form but with that said, EvetS is a mate, a nice and helpful guy within FaDe at the very least and hope that with lesson learned and dues paid he will one day become an invaluable member of the community.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	I fully respect FaDe for everything they've done about this issue
	nirvAnA:	True friends stick by you when everyone else has left. Go FaDe! :)
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support that

TATheMoonStar · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

We hate hackers, we are aware how much it hurts the scene. Thats why there was even this thread made in the first place and hacking whatever the reasons is inexcusable. But it doesn't mean we should be so quick to crucify a former respected member of this community and offer him no chance of redemption.

Personally, I feel that it does.

Quick Comments

Spud:

U are the moonstar

**nGenLight** · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 1:52 PM

Well personally, cheating in a major competitive game such as StarCraft II with such a large community deserves a severe punishment on the fringe of banishment, regardless of screen cheating or maphacking. In my personal opinion, any caught cheaters should deserve at least 6 months - This is simply an offense too great to be lenient towards. I missed the entire meany drama until now, but IMO they should both get a very long ban. Though I do have to say that going through the net looking for maphack takes a more severe desire to cheat than to stream cheat - and either way we cannot prove if Meany stream cheated or simply maphacked, so IMO the same punishment is needed.

The defense that he was a former respected member is weak - The fact that he got to respectability through possible cheating and cheating behind a respectable name is pretty disgusting.

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

It looks like the mods have made up their decision on this matter - to allow the subject a very quick chance to redemption. Although I echo numerous voices in the community by taking a harder stance (moreso because the subjects lied multiple times about it), the decision is very understandable.

RicocheT · Sat, 31st-Dec-2011, 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

Are you familiar with a PVPGN server by the name of Bored Aussies? They have a maphacking sort of 'jury' as you would call it who watch through replays and only ban with conclusive evidence, mostly centred around DotA.
Of course this is completely different as there are tools for Warcraft 3 that help them detect, but I think a sort of same thing here would actually be helpful. Of course we would need to gather more than 1 replay, maybe I dont know, a number of 5~ or so replays, unless it's so bloody blatant that you don't need more than one replay.

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

Just my 2 cents.

Quick Comments

Flamga:

agreed