[Frogmite]

Update: SEACL was by far the most popular choice with voters and hence it will be our first major tournament of 2012. This thread will be where you can discuss the format.

Hello admin, moderators and MVPs,

We have been speaking with Erasmus, Stallion and Maynarde about the clan leagues on sc2sea.com. It appears today that there are more stuff done for BSG/PD players than for good players. Furthermore, we faced a lot of issues with smurfing, players not laddering on SEA, players purposely remaining in BSG/PD just to play those clan leagues.

It's not exactly the result expected so we have been thinking about setting up a new clan league system, that aims to start early 2012.

Current league system:

Pro:
+ Dedicated to the level of players (BSG/PD)
+ New teams created for the events (or teams we never heard about)

Con:
- smurfing, farming, loss tanking
- people not laddering on SEA
- player purposely staying in bsg/pd to play competitions
- not encouraging players to get better
- not enough coverage

New clan league system

The main point of the new league system would be to remove the league ranking restriction.
The idea we got, was to merge BSGCL/PDCL/SEACL into one big league, open for all players, but with three divisions.

I put an example below on what could be the divisions for season 1. I am not 100% aware of the levels of the teams/clans so don't be offensed if your team/clan is not in the right division.

TOP DIVISION:
Terror Australis, aLternative, Infinity, newGeneration, SPR, ArchaicMSI, xGKing, SQLT, TTesport, Mineski, Flash

MIDDLE DIVISION:
FXO, Prodigy, EVE, H, nRv, Crux, 2bh, FaDe, iRL

BOTTOM DIVISION:
BtD, QED, TCP, ToR, Clanless, KA, VB,...

Features

- Restrictions for 2 teams max per clan
- One player can only play for one team
- There will be a cash prize for first team/clan of top league. No cash prize for bottom/middle league as we must not force players to remain in a lower league. However we can think to another prize for finishing first of the league (sc2sea achievement....)
- At the end of a season, top 2 teams face bottom 2 teams to decide who is promoted/demoted.
- 5/7? players per team minimum - tell me what is your thought about that
- BO 5/7? seacl style (every player playing 1 game)
- playoff with top 4 teams of top league / no playoffs ???

Dates
Starting date: 26th January 2012
End of regular season: 29th March 2012
End of playoff :? 12th April 2012?
So roughly 4 month for a season.

What do we need
- Cash prizes for first team of TOP DIVISION. I spoke with Mayo to check if Tt can sponsorize this clan league. Will check with Razer too. If you know interested people to sponsor this project they are welcome.
- 2 admins per divisions, so 6 in total (Maynarde, myself, Erasmus, Stallion, ???, ???)
- a strong organization, i believe it won't be a mess if we manage the three leagues separetly.
- maybe give three different days (tuesday/wednesday/friday?) for the three divisions so there can be a better coverage?

Pro
+ Give a strong identity to SEA community
+ No more smurfing/cheating
+ It will encourage people to get better
+ It will involves pro/semi-pro teams into the community.

Con
- no dedicated competition for BSG/PD players, unless someone else run those league next seasons.
- difficult for bronze/silver players to get a seat into teams and so playing clan league.

These are just ideas, we won't post anything before it gets mature enough. We'll maybe make a poll as well to see what people think about it.

Tell me what do you think of this, all comments are welcome.

[Eddie]

Interesting idea.

I like it how all clans would compete in divisions, earn the right to advance. The top few clans in SEA deserve a decent prizepool, eg SEACL type setup.

However i think it would hurt the chances of BSG and even PD players getting games big time though. I'd assume a lot of clans would have at least have several Masters/High Diamonds, maybe a few GM's too, so you'd likely see the same top 5/7 guys of these teams playing the bulk of the season.

Negatives out way the Pro's imo, as providing events for BSGPD players, who represent the majority of players, and keeping them interested in the game and their own events, should be a main goal of sc2sea.

Is smurfing really such a big deal? Can't say there's been any major incidents in the GPD's. Perhaps it is easier to moderate individuals, i don't know...

If this idea was to be introduced and we kept the other lower clan leagues as well, that would be cool.

[Frogmite]

I like your comments, we could maybe make the three divisions as follows:

TOP division - no league restrictions
MID division - diamond league restriction
BOTTOM division - gold league restriction

If a team is dominating the Bottom division (BSG) then they will play in the higher division the next season.

So BSG players still have a division where they can compete. If a player get promoted to platinum he'll have to play for mid division (in his team or another team=transfert, mercato....). Today platinum players are dominating the BSGCL and that's not the point of this league.

And yes smurfing is a big deal as we play in KOTH system, so i suppose we remove KOTH system as it is not relevant for low level

[|Erasmus|]

You should consider though, Eddie, that unlike a single GPD, these leagues run for a few months, and people are getting promoted/demoted, and just generally improving at different rates.

So the issue of smurfing becomes more an issue of determining when is a player 'too good' for a BSG clan league, etc. And there still people playing in the BSG clan league who have made semi-finals of GPDs and competed in Masters cups. So it's not like we're even avoiding that issue with the current system.

I think if we're just sensible about it, and seed teams based on the ranks of the Top 5 players, and we're using the PL format rather than the WL format so we don't have all-kills from one team having a player 2 leagues higher each week it will work out.

It also means the teams can be a bit more friendly, and gold players can be in the same team as their diamond friends, even if they realise they might not get played every week.

As an additional twist to this format, I might even propose that we have each team seed all it's players in the signup list:

1. Player A
2. Player B, etc.

Then each week you name a lineup of 5 players, who must play in their seeded order. So the two highest seeds of each team playing that week are matched up. And the teams take it in turns to pick one of the starting maps for that week (since normally you put a player out on a map they like in this format).

[nirvAnA]

this will probably be the new format for the SEACL that we just got a sponsor for!

[nirvAnA]

Bump!

Frogmite made this post awhile ago in the staff forums. It looks like SEACL will be our first tournament so its now open to public discussion and heres the place to discuss the format.

---

In response to benji's "pro teams only tier1" post

l agree there should be at least 3 leagues of separation but not with the "pro league teams only" because many of the top clans are just as good as the sponsored pros and if its just the pros its gonna be spread way tooo thin, not enough players per team, no back ups in case of no shows, etc.

xG - 3 players
SQLTt - 4 players
Flash - 2 players
Tt - 1 player
immunity - 1 player
Mski - 2 really good players
MiTH - 1 really good players

At the same time it will be showcasing not really top players (the others from misk/mith) and needlessly exclude alot of players who can compete with them for e.g iceiceice, targa, yoon, pokerface, timber, han, strafe, rev, muse won't be able to play in the league.

Lastly, theres a big skill gap between benji's "tier2" with infi ta alt and bsg which is better filled with P/D clans so these up and coming players have a better chance to develop and compete. So IMO this idea is something to think about for the future when there are enough players/teams and it is more developed. For now I'd like the divisions to look something like this and it will probably be limited to 10 teams per division so its easy to manage.

---

My thoughts on how SEACL #2 should be

---

Its very close to frogmite's OP im basically just suggesting and additional FA Cup GSTL style to run along side it.

Tier 1:
xG + some nGen
SQLT
inFi
aLt
Mski
TA
MiTH
SPR

+ Maybe some others like EVE, Gview, lGd, IRL i'm not too sure.

---

Tier 2: (PDCL league clans)
Imperial-Winter Nights
Brothers til Death
Ascension Gaming
Terror Australis PD
FaDe PD
Team VB
TCP
Crux
ToR PD

---

Tier 3: (BSG league clans)
FaDe A
Kelvins Army
The Clanless
FaDe B
Time of Rising BSG
Team Carbon Pressure
Terror Australis BSG
Brothers Till Death
VB
QED

---

• Big clans like TA, FaDe and ToR can be represented in several leagues so all their members have a chance to play.
• The league format will be something like 5-7 1v1 matches(each a best of 3) vs another clan weekly to encourage clan participation/activity.
• There will be a side cup (FA cup style) tournament where everyone can enter which will have the bulk of the prize pool.

So for instance round 1 matches will look something like this where the top teams are seeded and don't play each other till later rounds. This will basically be the SEACL Season 2 GSTL all kill format and every team would have had the chance to participate in it.

xG vs Imperial-Winter Nights
SQLT vs Brothers til Death
Ascension Gaming vs Time of Rising BSG
Terror Australis PD vs FaDe B

[deL]

nirvAnA's list looks solid. Seeing xG is looking to add some nGen members to it why not consider letting someone like Tt.PiG play for SQLT seeing they work closely with Tt anyway? SQLT does have a slightly smaller roster than those other teams up there too.

Also if we set up a good structured format now we could have things like promotion and relegation where the top performer/s in the lower league can try to be promoted to the top level in a playoff against the last placed teams in the tier above. That way we'd see as a red hot BSG team improves and eventually can take on teams in the PD level ;D

For teams you're not sure about whether they can be in the top level or not, it won't matter because you can place them in the one below and they should be able to get themselves promoted if they are worthy.

Also if we still want something else to cheer about we could 'connect' the teams in each league. Bigger teams like ToR, FaDe and TA would obviously have their own BSG and PD teams but others could 'adopt' lower teams like SQLT/BtD and these alliances could tally their results at the end to see who was most successful across all divisions :3 The teams could benefit by meeting new players or practicing with them or whatever.

[Snx.FigJig]

Just wondering what about teams that wouldn't fit in the PD tier 2 league? Like iRL, winter nights, and crux mainly consist of masters-gm players but still wouldn't be at the level of infi, alt, and TA's top players. Where would they be?

[Benji]

I'm supposed to be casting in 10 minutes, but I want to get a quick post out there and I may follow this up with a more indepth one either after Masters Cup or tomorrow at work.

But basically how I see it is you want players to be picked up by pro teams, and you want teams to be represented. I think we can all agree with this, if people don't, please say so and I can address this.

Yes I may be a little bias, which is why this is a public forum but as i see it, SEA clans and SEA Pro Teams cannot have a format which suits the players. The pro teams want a format for less players (as they have smaller rosters) and the clans want larger rosters as they have a lot of players. This cannot work together.

Second point, a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke. Yea the players might all still play on a clan, but it would completely miss the purpose of it. These formats WORK but only if there is a league for the top tier teams, which SEA DOES NOT HAVE at the moment. (eg: TCL is successful for mid tier clans because top tier players play in TeSL).

Thirdly with regards to players showing up, sponsored players are contractually bound to represent the team in team events (or should be). If they don't show for a match, that's poor form for their team. (Obviously given notice dates can be moved if something conflicts).

Like I said at the start, its now 3 minutes before I have to cast, so I can't post more until later, but please question anything I have posted or the logic. As for prize breakdown for what I suggest (Teams in top tier, clans mid tier) I think splitting it something like 75% top 25% mid can work. We need incentive for players and teams to pick up sponsors, or to join a preexisting team, and this SHOULD BE one of those reasons.

[deL]

The trouble Benji is that we should aim for this to be something the pro teams get involved in, but not now - in the long term. This is just a spontaneous event dependent on private donators and has no guaranteed future so if you set the bar too high now at 5 players or whatever or new pro teams form just to play in this and it ceases to be then teams are left with overpopulated rosters. This does a lot more damage than good for the teams and disrupt the scene.

Sure you want people to get picked up by pro teams but only if they deserve it and only if they can provide a useful service to the team - the point isn't just to suck all you can from the sponsors. That is a sure way to make no future for SC2 as an eSport in Aus/SEA. Let it build organically and the first steps are these clan leagues - like the last one that was a huge success for players and fans ("a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke" is not the case judging by last time). If you rush in to it eager to include pro teams when it doesn't really fit you may end up doing more harm than good.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

But basically how I see it is you want players to be picked up by pro teams, and you want teams to be represented. I think we can all agree with this, if people don't, please say so and I can address this.

Who wants to sign The Chad?..

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Second point, a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke. Yea the players might all still play on a clan, but it would completely miss the purpose of it. These formats WORK but only if there is a league for the top tier teams, which SEA DOES NOT HAVE at the moment. (eg: TCL is successful for mid tier clans because top tier players play in TeSL).

I don't see this as a Joke - depends what the end goal of the SEACL is.. is it to promote the community and have fun, then no. If it is to introduce a new competitive area for top tier players, then perhaps

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Thirdly with regards to players showing up, sponsored players are contractually bound to represent the team in team events (or should be). If they don't show for a match, that's poor form for their team. (Obviously given notice dates can be moved if something conflicts).

As for prize breakdown for what I suggest (Teams in top tier, clans mid tier) I think splitting it something like 75% top 25% mid can work. We need incentive for players and teams to pick up sponsors, or to join a preexisting team, and this SHOULD BE one of those reasons.

Agreed, players from pro teams should show up - thats what they are supposed to do.
And, Also I agree that there should be a top tier clan league division then a separate division between pro-teams. So someone like Mafia, for example, can play in the top tier competition for xGKing, and the top Clan division for TA. of course this comes down to scheduling - but if the Clan league system has larger rosters he wouldn't need to play every week.. but just occasionally to show case his ability and have some fun... IMO not everyone is driven by $ incentives... sure prizes are good but we all play this game because we enjoy it. So if there was a top Clan league with a minor prize the people could compete for a bit of fun - that would be great... Then for the serious pro(semi-pro) gamers there can be a more significant prize? (perhaps make this level an Open tournament with an entry fee to boost the prize pool and keep out low league teams?.. but if they wanna boost the prize and get rofl'd that is up to them.

Great to see how this all develops!

eSports yo!

[EveSigns]

hey im rlly sorry if this has been talked about but im a little confused so ill just add my 2 cents anyways even if its been decided on. I would prefer some sort of format liek best of x (75-9) not quite in the gstl style but what i belive is the old proleague format where each team selects there 5 players and these players ALL play with the victor of their match not simply moving onto the next player but securing a single kill/point. this way mroe players could b involved, teams with only 1 good player (i.e. korean ring in/ sea PRO) wouldnt be able to single handedly rofl stomp everyone and as mentioned in a previous thread this could create instances where a weaker team by selecting good matchups/stratergies could take wins off some of the top 4. i know at least in my teams case we have maybe one 'Ace' player in strafe but a great deal of good players who with luck could take induvidual games off of the best. im sorry this is confsuing as **** and not well articulated but pls let me know hwta u guys think or tell me to shut up if its alrdy been discussed

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	Bash:	i kinda agree
	nirvAnA:	strafe ftw!

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by EveSigns

hey im rlly sorry if this has been talked about but im a little confused so ill just add my 2 cents anyways even if its been decided on. I would prefer some sort of format liek best of x (75-9) not quite in the gstl style but what i belive is the old proleague format where each team selects there 5 players and these players ALL play with the victor of their match not simply moving onto the next player but securing a single kill/point. this way mroe players could b involved, teams with only 1 good player (i.e. korean ring in/ sea PRO) wouldnt be able to single handedly rofl stomp everyone and as mentioned in a previous thread this could create instances where a weaker team by selecting good matchups/stratergies could take wins off some of the top 4. i know at least in my teams case we have maybe one 'Ace' player in strafe but a great deal of good players who with luck could take induvidual games off of the best. im sorry this is confsuing as **** and not well articulated but pls let me know hwta u guys think or tell me to shut up if its alrdy been discussed

Yeh, for me the all-kill format has lost some novelty. I loved having it everywhere at first (i don't mean just SEA, i mean international clan wars and GSTL) but now i miss the old Brood-War style where it was 5 vs 5, you put a player on a map etc. I think it would be a nice change, the only problem is actually having the required amount of players on. The All-kill format allows more time to prepare players and means that a team could only have to send 2 for example. TA on iCCup though participated in clan wars and even at insanely dumb times (2am) we had 4 players to put out and a 2v2 team for every clan war. I think it is doable, just needs careful preparation.

[crAzerk]

I'm not sure if this has been considered, but what is the plan with regards to players who improve?

In the PDCL/BSGCL we've already seen some examples of this (-cough-venosaur-cough) in which players improve far beyond the league they're representing. In a FOUR MONTHS event such as this, it's going to be even worse.

[nirvAnA]

Benji the infrastructure isnt in place, there aren't enough teams. its something to consider in the future but its too premature to have now, like del said, this league isnt even sustainable and only happened because of the goodwill of JoFritzMD. Its been almost a year since seacl#1 and there was nothing in between, no one bothered to step in. So until we have a stable of sponsors and a series of planned events for a year, this model will not work. If "pro teams" get hyped up and start recruiting tons and don't see any return because basically theres not even gonna be a seacl#3 for sometime, that will be the real joke. the SEA scene is small and its good to be optimistic but at the end of the day especially with sponsors who demand returns, you have to be realistic or they will just get disappointed and driven away.

excluding all the other good players will end up hurting the league, lessen the viewers and its not what sponsors want. sponsors can be represented just as well with a pro-team/clan league, i dont see why you are so against including clans. also PDCL players will have no league and we will be alienating a whole division of players.

as for pig playing for SQLT, - SQLT stands for sequential gaming, its a different team altogether from Tt. It is just that Tt is one of the sponsors of SQL and besides Tt gets more exposure if PiG doesn't get lumped with SQLT. Its like combining xGking and EG because they both have kingston as their sponsors and saying they are the same team.

[iM tgun]

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

[nirvAnA]

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

Quick Comments

	PiG:
	ZergGirl:

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

So what you're saying is, even if i'm able to reach an agreement with a team today, I wouldn't be allowed to play?

[deL]

Originally Posted by tgun

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

I dunno about the tourney admins but I'd much rather that than some 'clanless team' - it worked well for BSG but wouldn't really fit in here.

Quick Comments

PiG:

If you aren't part of sea team...

[ToR.Arnor]

My only thought to add is that the Pro-league needs to add ArchMSI to its roster, whether that means ArchMSI + TA members for reserves (similar to xG + nGen) or ArchMSI and TA get seperate slots (TA has more than enough non SQL/xG/ArchMSI members to make their own somewhat competitive team) is totally up to the tournament organizers