[crAzerk]

but tbh im to noob i didnt know how to create borders or headings or any of that stuff

Just press enter for paragraphs, and click on the 'B' for bold for headings, etc. If you use any word processor like Microsoft Word it should be already intuitive, without having to actually type any BB Code.

[SLCN.Kez]

I did! theres a space in there somewhere i swear..... nah i think it looks so wall-ish because on a forum it doesnt go as wide. On word it looks fine and not very wallish.
will try the bold headings and such next post

[Zepph]

When you say "it is undeniable that some women get special treatment in the e-sports scene purely because they are women" I agree with you but only to a point. I think yes, you're right, sex does sell and having a pretty girl talking about something e-sports related will of course bring in those extra views and hold more people's attention (whether it be for the words coming out of their mouth or otherwise). On the other hand however, I feel that this special treatment is rather short-lived. Let's look at GSL casters for example.

Inevitably all casters will forever be compared to people like Tastosis and Day9. Casters like Moletrap,Wold and DoA copped a lot of crap when they started out, when in my opinion they're weren't bad at all. Perhaps their game knowledge isn't on the same level as someone else's or their jokes don't work as well, but they act professionally, give it their best and strive to improve because they obviously enjoy what they are doing. Now I feel they have indeed improved and as a result they are still frequently casting code A.

When Kelly got the job casting for Gom, she also got a lot of the same criticism as these other new casters. The only real difference being that people attacked her over her accent and of course gender as well. I'm not sure of Gom's reasons for hiring Kelly whether it was based on her casting skills or indeed the idea of just having a female on the show like the Korean stream often does. Either way, she is no longer casting a big events like GSL regularly. So it's not like being female gave her much more than a bit more publicity.

Basically what I'm saying is although a female may be hired on the basis of gender, if they aren't very well liked and aren't fit for the job then they won't be getting that special treatment you mentioned for long. If a tournament keeps bringing a bad caster back (female or otherwise), it's going to end up hurting the amount of viewers they get so it's in their best interest to replace them with someone better.

That said, there's nothing wrong with giving females a go in the e-sports scene. How can we expect better quality female casters if we don't give them a chance? It's definitely bad to put any inexperienced caster in a position where they will be casting for perhaps thousands of viewers, because like you said, it hurts the overall quality of the event. So if a company wants a female for the sake of having a female, I feel that they should be digging deeper into smaller communities similar to our own and finding out who people enjoy and who's had the best experience to avoid this problem. Everyone has to start somewhere, so I think to integrate females into the e-sports scene more easily, they just need to choose more wisely.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	"Choose more wisely", who could it be ? :D
	zeffrin:	yeah, totally what this guy said

[SLCN.Kez]

Couldnt agree with you more. wish id thought of that ahha

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Zepph

So if a company wants a female for the sake of having a female, I feel that they should be digging deeper into smaller communities similar to our own and finding out who people enjoy and who's had the best experience to avoid this problem. Everyone has to start somewhere, so I think to integrate females into the e-sports scene more easily, they just need to choose more wisely.

I was happy Bee and Duck were given the chance in a bigger stage and they did not bad considering the situation.
They need to be less nervous and stay away of the "Oh my god" type of thing, be more technical in the beginning to assess their casting.

[crAzerk]

I just have to say this everytime I see a comment about it, just to defend my fellow singaporeans:

The only real difference being that people attacked her over her accent and of course gender as well.

There's a difference between poor pronunciation and having an accent. The real problem for her was the former, not the latter.

Anyway, that's besides the discussion but i just had to say it. Still waiting (and hoping) for an OP edit though.

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	agreed... singaporean accent is actually kind of pleasant
	Zepph:	yeah (: you're right, could have phrased that better. ^.^

[|Erasmus|]

The main things I got out of this article:

1. You think all gamers hate girls because we were made fun of by girls we were sexually attracted to in highschool.

2. You hate girls because they get good casting jobs cause they have tits and will draw in viewers.

I feel like you've extrapolated backwards from 1, assuming that everyone feels the same and constructed some ridiculous reason for it based on your own experiences, which frankly, some of us don't share. Some of my best friends in high school were girls, and I wasn't even a big video gamer then. In fact, I mostly played the -far- more nerdy Magic: The Gathering. And I was open about it... I would go play in the library during lunch times some of the time.

And as for girls getting these jobs without working for them... Seltzer has been posting her videos of player interviews on TL for many months. She's really quite good at them. I honestly don't really know the names of any guys who do that regularly. So good on her for finding that niche and marketing it and getting herself a ******* sweet gig with IPL. And if you do want to make that claim, you should have some facts backing it up. I'm sure some of those girls do more work than you actually think they do.

I really can't see anything worthwhile to read in this article, personally...

Quick Comments

zeffrin:

another good point, females do make better interviewers, prob other things I mention help

[Zepph]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I was happy Bee and Duck were given the chance in a bigger stage and they did not bad considering the situation.
They need to be less nervous and stay away of the "Oh my god" type of thing, be more technical in the beginning to assess their casting.

Yeah I agree, it's great to give anyone a chance. Maybe it didn't work out as well as people had hoped but they can only improve from the experience.

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

Until you get constantly harrassed, stalked and treated like shit. Like you would have ANY idea what it is like to be female and part of this community benji.

Quick Comments

	Benji:	terrible arguement
	iM yang:
	syfChadMann:	"terrible arguement" is a terrible response.
	FaDeBadger:

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by TARogue

Until you get constantly harrassed, stalked and treated like shit. Like you would have ANY idea what it is like to be female and part of this community benji.

There's definately disadvantages being a female in a community with not enough to go around... but I'm surprised anyone would doubt that women in general have an easier time through life.

People have an instinct to distrust strange men (probably warranted over thousands of years) whereas men usually have an instinct to protect women and therefore are given trust more easily.

Not discrediting the effect of being harassed by weirdos constantly, as I totally agree that part of being female would suck... but there's always the option of not putting yourself in situations where you know there is going to be a ratio of 100:1 men to women if you don't want them all climbing over each other for your attention.

I know personally, I'm married now and I've never really been long between girlfriends through my 20's yet still... when I was at EB Expo, I found myself unable to look away from a few of the cosplay girls and the dancers. Meant absolutely no offense, and didn't even have a desire to talk to them or anything but yeah, definately something deep inside draws me toward the women.

Also anecdotably, feminine voice just sounds so nice to us... I believe there was some research which indicates a reason for this, based around the reason women don't develop much deeper voices is because keeping the pitch of childen (though it does change of course) continues to inspire protective instincts in men.. and I dunno for certain but my conclusion is that for the same reason, Men _LOVE_ the sound of women, talking will get attention, moaning will immediately turn men on and the crescendo after that is enough to make a guy dump his productive fluids..

Whee, fun topic... I think it's important to say as well, this doesn't need to be an us vs them women vs men thing. It's an education thing... we need the nerds to feel more comfortable around women so more women will come... once there's sufficient gamer women for gamer blokes then all of this is going to go away... like it pretty much has in carshow industry and stuff nowadays. (A lot of car blokes find chicks into cars super sexy, and why not right, and now it's ok for girls to be into cars there's a balance which is happy)

Also diverging into the car topic for the moment... in that scene it has been accepted that men are interested in power and speed while women are more drawn toward asthetics and comfort... but it's symbiotic... bloke gets a blown v8 with a mandrel exhaust and is happy, but then because from his community he learns the women want nice seats and sound system lower road noise etc, so he puts on a better highperformance muffler and gets the interior trimed, installs a decent stereo.

Between the two differing goals one thing can become better than either side could have made it on their own... and our community will be the same.

[Malik]

u cant brew v u can swirl it though

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Not discrediting the effect of being harassed by weirdos constantly, as I totally agree that part of being female would suck... but there's always the option of not putting yourself in situations where you know there is going to be a ratio of 100:1 men to women if you don't want them all climbing over each other for your attention.

... So you're saying women shouldn't be in any esports scene?

Quick Comments

zeffrin:

I'm saying they shouldn't turn up at events if they're going to complain about it being a sausage party

[SLCN.Kez]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

The main things I got out of this article:

1. You think all gamers hate girls because we were made fun of by girls we were sexually attracted to in highschool.

2. You hate girls because they get good casting jobs cause they have tits and will draw in viewers.

I feel like you've extrapolated backwards from 1, assuming that everyone feels the same and constructed some ridiculous reason for it based on your own experiences, which frankly, some of us don't share. Some of my best friends in high school were girls, and I wasn't even a big video gamer then. In fact, I mostly played the -far- more nerdy Magic: The Gathering. And I was open about it... I would go play in the library during lunch times some of the time.

And as for girls getting these jobs without working for them... Seltzer has been posting her videos of player interviews on TL for many months. She's really quite good at them. I honestly don't really know the names of any guys who do that regularly. So good on her for finding that niche and marketing it and getting herself a ******* sweet gig with IPL. And if you do want to make that claim, you should have some facts backing it up. I'm sure some of those girls do more work than you actually think they do.

I really can't see anything worthwhile to read in this article, personally...

You really misread it everything i have posted havent you...?
im saying that could be a reason as to why theres animosity, not OMFG EVERY GAMER HATES GIRLS BECAUSE OF THIS<<<<>>>. re read the article, have an open mind, and dont be stupid. k go

[syfChadMann]

I don't understand why this thread is still open?..

Women and Men are equal in the western would. Why not in the E-stern world?..

The suggestion from Benji that women get in easier and are noticed more because of gender is because this 'industry' doesn't accept women (at its core - and it should) and when a women does something worthy its such a surprise that they did, like 'omg that cast is half decent - and a women.. wtf' whereas if it was a man it would be 'meh.. some dude trying to cast lol'...

So while it seems like they have it 'easier' its because stereotyping and gender inequality has developed such low expectations of 'girl gamers'... What you said Benji is like saying "Geesh - the Jews got it easy being given a country after WW2'.... well, no - not really but Female gamers get alot of flack just for being girls...

Lets cheer for a female compatriots and try and build the scene together!! dick or no dick.
- and I don't think much else needs to be said about this thread.. its a joke.. until people work together and over look gender, people will continue to waste time writing in threads like this.

EDIT - The only problem I see with eSports atm is its filled with dumb, socially awkward teenagers that can't handle talking to girls and get uncomfortable when they see one in the male dominated online sanctum.

Quick Comments

	VoxMSI.Rogue:
	Benji:	I do not agree
	FaDeBadger:
	deL:	I do agree, Benji sounds bitter about his lack of casting success and is looking for excuses
	Zepph:	well said sir

[zeffrin]

Further to my response to Maynarde.... I don't go to tupperware parties, baby showers, or any other event when I know there's going to be more women than men... and I think a lot of blokes feel the same.

Why is that? Because when they outnumber us like that they don't bother filtering their thoughts on their husbands etc, women in groups if you listen in can actually be far more judgemental and offensive of men than I hear (many) men talking of women

Quick Comments

	Kalikah:	...just wow
	deL:	are you 12?
	TAEdgE:	you're retarded
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	jesus christ mate, i hope no woman ever goes near you, you piece of shit
	TAriiChard:	.

[NvPinder]

Just want everyone to know that in the sc2sea chatbox we've come to an agreement that, while vaginas are not at all attractive to look at, women do have a place in esports.

Quick Comments

	TABjornbrandr:
	deL:	some are nice

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Further to my response to Maynarde.... I don't go to tupperware parties, baby showers, or any other event when I know there's going to be more women than men... and I think a lot of blokes feel the same.

Why is that? Because when they outnumber us like that they don't bother filtering their thoughts on their husbands etc, women in groups if you listen in can actually be far more judgemental and offensive of men than I hear (many) men talking of women

LOL - So women should stick to their domain?.. Tupperware parties, baby shows and the kitchen?
are you serious?

Buddy, you (and most of us) don't go to tupperware parties and baby showers because there not our interests.. but the interest of middle aged women. If a young woman wants to be involved in esports or go to gamer events or what ever - you can't just say - "no sorry miss, but you have to go to the tupperware and baby showers.. this is for men only" Women get shit tupperware - so the men claim games. sigh, are you seriously that sexist? Is this the 50s?

Just use your head for two seconds... esports and gaming is about PERSONAL INTEREST and believe it or not (this might be far fetched for you to understand) but some women actually like esports and gaming. So who the **** are you to deny them that interest? just because they haven't got a penis?!

tbh - this whole discussion is extremely sexist and retarded. You need to realise that women are as equal to you in their likes and dislikes and that they should have the same privilege of doing things they enjoy.

Move on with the modern world, accept people for what ever gender, race or creed... and just grow up.
This thread is offensive and should be closed. Filled with narrow minded comments.. doesn't do anything positive to the industry or scene.

EDIT - In addition, I just noticed Benji's "I do not Agree" -rep comment on my post. Explain yourself bro... what do you not agree with.. don't just hide behind your rep and stature and say "you don't agree"... What isn't there to agree with?.. Women have a hard time in this scene.. We need to celebrate their accomplishments in the industry because of the negativity thats thrown at them every day... they find it hard to continue.. because of sexism like this... and it becomes easier for women just to give up..

Construct a feasible response to my comment. grow up. accept women. don't blame them because you have a hard time and have to work hard in the scene - comments like that will just make it harder for you, in this scene.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	agreed, people have been banned for less in the past
	Kalikah:	tupperware parties are crap anyway

[TABjornbrandr]

Well just for my own input here, I've actually played against CheekyDuck on ladder (beat her there and in a few customs :P) and considering our level of play naturally there were mistakes on both our behalves etc etc, but at the end she said something along the lines of "Dammit, I shouldn't insert mistake here and I might've won." and then a little later on something along the lines of "Imagine how you'd feel if you'd lost to a girl."
Up until that point I didn't even know she was a girl, had never heard of her before that and the only thing remotely indicative of it was her saying "Hfgl ♥".
I just said what I thought, essentially "I don't see why it'd matter if you're a boy or a girl, there's plenty of gamer girls."
She was genuinely surprised that I was so indifferent to the gender of who I'm playing. To me it's just common sense, sometimes you just have to forget who your opponent is and just play the game. It's exactly the same as in work, forget that your boss is a woman and just recognise that they're your boss. Doesn't mean you have to try to sway her over simply because she's female or feel belittled because you're working for a woman. It's what they are that matters, not who they are.

Finally, I think that Benji may have been a little misinterpreted. If I may say so, I'd be more inclined to think that Benji meant that a lot of viewers who watch female casters initially do it because they're female and they find them attractive. Sure, that sounds fine to me. Same reason that a lot of people watch cheerleaders because they're female and attractive. The gamer demographic happens to be predominantly males with a huge number of teenage males and as such, there are a number of brainless males who like watching a mouth that comes with a pair of breasts.
However, I'd be inclined to think that the viewers who watch someone solely because they have tits aren't supportive and just do it for their own... pleasure. So I don't know whether or not people are more inclined to support female casters, but they may be more inclined to listen a little longer because of their gender.
In the end, no matter how attractive a female is, if they're hopeless at what they do they'll only end up with the truly unintelligent watching them, something that won't get them anywhere in the eSports scene.

[zeffrin]

ChadMann, you are overly sensitive.

But anyway, I do agree there's probably little else to add to this topic of real value.

But for what it's worth I'm not saying they shouldn't take part.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

I'm just going to say 1 thing, and that is women get it a million times easier to do anything in the scene.

When a girl first gets noticed as a girl, everyone wants to be their friend, they get a bunch of contacts with important people in the community, simply for being a female, where a male in the same situation needs to work hard and prove themselves over a long period of time.

They also get alot more attention in whatever they do, if they become casters (which most do as I am yet to see a female in SEA that is capable of competing at a high level) they instantly get more viewers than their male equivalent. If they are an average caster, its completely fine and they still get a bunch of attention where the male equiv will disappear or need to work hard to improve their skills.

It may sound harsh, but being a female online is a thousand times easier than being a male.

This is so true. Just try acting like a girl in WoW (I know someone who did LOL - he got his gf to talk to them on skype, etc) you will level up the fastest you have in your life and any gear that drops will be force fed to you even though you can't even use it.

There is a difference in standards but its because of the girl / guy ratio NOT because of the persons actual gender. Anything that is scarce in quantity becomes more valuable thats how the world works. If there were equal number of female/male WoW players, or female/male sc2 players, this would never happen and girls will be treated just like how the males are but for now girls bring a breath of fresh air thats why they are so in demand. Still hoping a female day9 would suddenly appear in this world, that would be sick.