[Doctor]

Hey there peeps ,
I would like to ask all the brotosses out there.
What is Protoss most cons ? And for PvZ and PvT , name the things that always cause you problem as a Protoss..
I wanna know about what are the things that makes protoss frustated..

Soz for my bad english..
Cheers

[x5_Bard]

Marauders -.-

Quick Comments

ToRCrispy:

[Zealo]

mutas

(mandatory extra characters)

[ProAnnn]

Against zerg, their ability to either make pure drones or pure units, makes you feel threatened at all times. For individual units, it will probably be speedlings and roaches. They are so retardedly cost efficient and fast(Speedlings - speedroaches) for counter attacks.

Against terran: Ghosts.

[Bendy]

Not so much a unit, more the ability to tech switch quickly if they bank a lot of larvae.

e.g. when I go for a stalker sentry immortal push against mass roach, kill everything, then get demolished right after by a flood of lings. Probably due to me losing most of my sentries and not having any forcefields though

[FaDeBadger]

Ghosts and mutas. Everything else I can deal with.

[Bash]

Yep, ghosts + Mutas, anything else is generally EZPZ

[Stallion]

ok the way i feel protoss is atm pvp
still revolves around 4 gate and basically you see them be greedy you 4 gate them

pvt
hard but not unwinable its about spreading your units out engaging in the open and denying drops and forcing them to emp either your ghosts 1 by 1 or armyif they hit army pull back and storm if hts make archons and attack easy in writing hard in practice aswell as macroing / expanding behind it espically late game pvt is very hard with mules so that t gets a bigger army

pvz
mass muta is a thing i am striggling against more these days with good players who dnt lose heaps of them for nothing i feel the real lack of good anti air as protoss in this match up atm im getting dts to harras then and let me take a 3rd off 6 gates and going into storm archon stalker and throwing zealots in with extra money as stalkers do crap vs lings. the big issue with this of course is it seems to always come down to a base race no matter what i do im looking forward to seeing how the tempest in Hots affects this issue

so to summurise
pvp nothing mirror lol
pvt ghosts mules
pvz muta

[Kringe]

as terran what frustrates me the most is their tempo play, they can continously stream units to ur base and as toos u fall behind due to the fact u cant macro and micro same time (only race that cant), and gateways early game can not keep up with the continously flowing terran army

also mules just suck dick plus obserevers cost tonnes and waste time of colosi production and scan is pretty much free "but u waste the scan u waste the mule and 300 mins" well shut up nerd because mules dont make money

[EveVendetta]

In PvT, that you can't win a well kiting / micro-ed MMM unless u have collo / charge + upgrades / superior position for FFs to work (which top T players generally manage to avoid as they can drop / retreat easily with speed if they spot u in a superior position.)

And the efficiency of medivac drops as u need a higher value army to defeat that army. Of which the Terran can pull back without losing much if he sees a higher value army approaching.

In PvZ, that you have to turtle and try disruptive things like DT/Air/Warp Prism as you can't keep up with zerg in economy otherwise.

And generally, that the production of warp prism is limited due to the importance of ALL the other robo units (obs, immortal, collo) . In comparison with medivacs which is an obvious choice from starport in almost all the terran armies apart from full mech / banshee harass.

[EveJeonSa]

My problem in PvT is mainly positioning in units.

My problem in PvZ Is everything

[Next_rim]

PvP - my worst problem with protoss. Not that it's hard...it's just boring, imho.

PvZ - ezmode, a-move carriers into greedy zerg. Muta? Who cares, gots 7 stargates on 8 gases.
PvT - 45% winrate. That 55% comes solely from good EMP and me losing macro afterwards.

[Cute]

PvZ in general

Ahh, nothing like a good whine thread ^-^

[NvPinder]

I had 99 problems and building a mothership solved them all.

Something about losing a game when you've built a mothership is much less disheartening and winning is 10x more satisfying. I thoroughly recommend it.

[FaDeBadger]

I like how you think

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

I had 99 problems and building a mothership solved them all.

Something about losing a game when you've built a mothership is much less disheartening and winning is 10x more satisfying. I thoroughly recommend it.

Agreed! Motership is the PvZ solution to broodlords. PvT still kinda gay for me don't have a good BO down yet for the mothership although i still win games with it winrate is nowhere near pvz

[inFeZa]

mothership is good in pvz. but when your making collosi and they already have a dozen corruptors it just soaks up damage from the colossi. And if your lucky you can get a vortex off.

OR

Recall into their main. It's pretty awesome.

[nirvAnA]

if you're getting collosi you're doing it wrong

this is the build - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=271126

The only thing the OP failed to realise is if you mix immortals into your composition from 1/2 robos and get templars and vortex after all your storm is used up INSTEAD of just zealot/archon you will basically never lose a game.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Agreed! Motership is the PvZ solution to broodlords. PvT still kinda gay for me don't have a good BO down yet for the mothership although i still win games with it winrate is nowhere near pvz

mmm ive been trying like, 2 base pheonix into mothership zealot archon stuff but it just doesn't seem too feasible in pvt atm unfortunately, ghosts emp range is just waaaaay to fuckn sick, and the fact that you're going zealot archon ontop of that makes ghosts MMM even stronger against your build.

Only way i can see it working is if you thoroughly out-control the terran and feedback every ghost that is within emp range before you cast the vortex, then morph archons -> into the toilet. But it's such an unforgiving and mechanically demanding play style I'm starting to think no one but the highest level broodwar pro-gamers could actually pull it off effectively enough to have it be worth it over just playing more standard builds. Kinda similar to 22-muta harass in broodwar, if you can control like jaedong and hit timings ridiculously crisply it becomes pretty effective, but anything less than best in the world control and multitask and it's kinda dogshit.

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

if you're getting collosi you're doing it wrong

this is the build - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=271126

The only thing the OP failed to realise is if you mix immortals into your composition from 1/2 robos and get templars and vortex after all your storm is used up INSTEAD of just zealot/archon you will basically never lose a game.

Yeah - i used that build for a while, was good but i found i needed more splash damage earlier game, so i would go 1 gate expand into stargate - get a void, then get 2-3 colossus and take a 3rd, then build the mother ship and archons, i just wanted to retain it for my playstyle some more.

[Meatex]

well im only gold protoss but i hate ghosts (emps makes me )
but for zerg... nothing
At gold zergs can't use infestors well and usually easy to spot mutas coming and have a bunch of stalkers ready so yeah.
Though sometimes i get roach ling all ined and die cause i was being super greedy :P

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

well im only gold protoss but i hate ghosts (emps makes me )
but for zerg... nothing
At gold zergs can't use infestors well and usually easy to spot mutas coming and have a bunch of stalkers ready so yeah.
Though sometimes i get roach ling all ined and die cause i was being super greedy :P

A quick stargate is good against a roach ling all-in. Usually i open 1 gate expand, add 2 more gates and a stargate while my nexus is building, then by the time a roach-ling all in comes you can have a void to defend it, you may lose a lot of ground units, but you can defend it quite well. Plus he'll have to spend money on spores/queens at home if he wants to survive.

[Meatex]

voids are for pussies - pheonixes are boss

[Bendy]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

voids are for pussies - pheonixes are boss

That reminds me of a Kiwikaki game I saw recently. He opened phoenix and his opponent went hydras, but he kept making phoenixes. Thought for sure he was going to die. When it came to the engagement he just lifted up most of the hydras and rolled the Zerg with his ground army.

Pure boss.

[Doctor]

what is the terrible map for Protoss versus X race ?
Like PvZ : Worst Metalopolis ?

[FaDeBadger]

PvZ: Any map you can't FFE on imo.
PvT: Spread out bases. Gotta keep my army clumped yo.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Doctor

what is the terrible map for Protoss versus X race ?
Like PvZ : Worst Metalopolis ?

Favorable vs zerg: Smaller the rush distance the better better, gives zerg less time to respond to 'pressure' or timing attacks from when you move out of your base to when you hit theirs (hence why close positions on meta/shattered and maps like steppes were incredibly broken towards protoss in the matchup). Some people seem to hate playing non-FFE styles nowadays. Not really 100% sure why. gate-core-expand still works as well as ever and has better pressure options earlier (giving the zerg more opportunities to **** up), on smaller maps i honestly believe gate core expand is better than forge FE. But that's pretty speculative and preference based.

Favorable vs terran: Larger the rush/fly distance better, similar reasoning to above, only in this matchup you are usually the one weary of timing attacks (1-1-1, 2 rax pressure, 5 rax 2-base pressure, 2 medivac 2-base pressure, etc.), also timing attacks work quite different vs terran than zerg simply because of the mechanics of hatcheries vs production facilities. Against terran them knowing your timing attack is coming 25 seconds before it hits as opposed to 1 minute before it hits isn't AS big of a deal, as opposed to zerg where they get an extra round of pure-units from hatcheries as opposed to drones they would've/might've been building otherwise. And re-inforcement time doesn't matter in timing attacks cos we're protoss and have proxy pylons cos blizzard are retards.

Favorable in general:

-Close expansions helps us greatly, as terran and zerg both have a HUGE amount of mobility & harassment options in a standard game against us (medivac drop harass and speedling/speedroach/ovy drop) compared to what we have against them and smaller army value fights generally favor the other two races as well. So holding a third base on a map like abyssal caverns is a night mare for us because of the distance away from the main, whilst holding a 3rd base on a map like antiga shipyard is much easier for us as the 3 bases form a nice close proximity with only 2 main (and very close) entrances into our expansions.

-Tight chokey areas on maps. Most of our ability to keep up with the other races comes from 1 of 2 things (and often both combined), 1) forcefield is ridiculous, 2) our splash damage is ridiculous. Both these things become more and more effective the tight the area you are fighting the opposition in is. If a zerg gets a 360 degree angle on my army you can pretty much be sure that im going to get shat on unless i have a flobbity gillion sentries with full energy. So for example, Typhon peaks was a notoriously protoss map when it came to mid and late game scenarios, because practically the entire map is small chokey hallways. Whilst getting cross spots on a map like tal'darim with its huge open center against a zerg can be challenging because they can get really good engagements if you try to move across the map.

Far by air - Pretty much identical reasoning to close expansions. Closer the air distance the more prone you are to harass. This can however advantage us somewhat in air openings so it's not as bad.



So, maps that are notoriously good for protoss are things like
antiga - kinda close positions and you can get some gross close vs air spots vs terran, but is otherwise fantastic for both matchups because there are a lot of chokes, a nice tight area to defend your third, and the third is nice and close to your first 2 bases, with a very easily progressed to gold for your fourth in late game.

the new gsl map - can't remember its name, but 100% that map is in there because protoss are struggling in code S, the thing screams protoss in literally every way possible ive mentioned aboved.


Notoriously horrible for Protoss
-Desert oasis was literally the most broken map ever made, and favored zerg and even terran against protoss, the expansions where actually that far spread out, holding just your main and nat against harass was about as hard as holding your main nat and third on the average map nowadays. Combined with long rush distance it was just impossible to beat zerg here.

edit: my downvotes on ladder:
Abyssal caverns - not a tournament map (hence no use practicing it) and the third is disgusting to try and take.

whatever that lava one is - not a tournament map, its a joke and would I could write a 2,000 word essay on how bad it is whilst still missing major flaws.

Tal'darim alter - Actually a fine map, but PvP forcing 4gate vs 4gate combined with how ridiculously bad it is vs random (Check the "is it fair to not know randoms race" thread to see a more detailed description) means i just want to break things before the game even starts if I get those matchups on TDA after a loss.

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