[NvPinder]

In the current standard Hallucination can get up before an Observer? Hallucination takes 110 seconds before Chronoboost, Observers take 40 seconds + 45 seconds (Robotics Facility warp in time). If Halucination can be completed before an Observer gets out isn't it more likely that the Robotics Facility was delayed? Or is it more of the metagame in PvZ that people go for an Immortal first before the Observer? Thanks

I was more saying because getting the robo off 1 base is so unpopular because in the current state of the matchup its just straight up not an effective way to open, you're going to have hallu much earlier than you would get an observer opening gateways into an expansion before robo etc.

I love the Phoenix scout but in PvT and PvP there are still some threat of early cloaked units. PvZ it's a lot more viable but I'm usually concerned about Roach aggression early on. Do you think these concerns are still valid?

I dont get exactly what u mean here, spending 100/100 on hallucinate wont really make you THAT much weaker against roaches, and the scouting of their base to see if they're continuing that roach production or if they're switching back to drones and prepare accordingly.

Regarding the 3rd paragraph, I have a lot of trouble knowing how to put aggression so the Phoenix scout will definitely help. Although, don't we want them to make more Speedlings? So, just curious, wouldn't it be more of a positioning issue? Or perhaps just an issue of players (like me =p) committing too much to an attack? If we walk up to the Zerg's base with a decent sized army, he can't afford to not make units right?

yeah, we want them to make those speedlings, the thing is we dont know if they made them, and if they have them made sitting on the middle of the map and you move out and get your army absolutely CRUSHED. You're suddenly in a shitload of trouble as the zerg is completely safe to pump drones for the next 5 minutes with absolutely no downside. Whereas if you can scout that he has that army, you have no need to pressure, can sit back and build up more army without risking yours, and basically the bigger the army's get, the less effective speedlings become. (for an extreme example: 10 speedlings vs 3 stalkers, 2 sentries could be a pretty even fight unless you have really really really good FF's, whereas 100 speedlings vs 30 stalkers and 20 sentries will be a ton more favourable for protoss)


And yeah, you wanna get hallu right as warpgate ends.

[GFree]

Hey that'd be a pretty cute thing to see in a game, your suggestion of tech misdirection.

Originally Posted by JPMoney

I was more saying because getting the robo off 1 base is so unpopular because in the current state of the matchup its just straight up not an effective way to open, you're going to have hallu much earlier than you would get an observer opening gateways into an expansion before robo etc.

2 Gate Robo doesn't happen anymore? O.o Against Zerg I would aim for an early expand but I usually get Robo before expanding against Terran...

Originally Posted by JPMoney

I dont get exactly what u mean here, spending 100/100 on hallucinate wont really make you THAT much weaker against roaches, and the scouting of their base to see if they're continuing that roach production or if they're switching back to drones and prepare accordingly.

I was referring to the possible lack of Sentries caused by spendign that 50 gas earlier making any very early Roach push more likely to be fatal. Is that not really a concern?

Originally Posted by JPMoney

yeah, we want them to make those speedlings, the thing is we dont know if they made them, and if they have them made sitting on the middle of the map and you move out and get your army absolutely CRUSHED. You're suddenly in a shitload of trouble as the zerg is completely safe to pump drones for the next 5 minutes with absolutely no downside. Whereas if you can scout that he has that army, you have no need to pressure, can sit back and build up more army without risking yours, and basically the bigger the army's get, the less effective speedlings become. (for an extreme example: 10 speedlings vs 3 stalkers, 2 sentries could be a pretty even fight unless you have really really really good FF's, whereas 100 speedlings vs 30 stalkers and 20 sentries will be a ton more favourable for protoss)


And yeah, you wanna get hallu right as warpgate ends.

I see. How about just walking up with our ball, see the Larvae morphing in at the Natural and then pull back? =p Yeah I see how Hallucination will help though. Would really give a safe, early scouting option.

[NvPinder]

2 Gate Robo doesn't happen anymore? O.o Against Zerg I would aim for an early expand but I usually get Robo before expanding against Terran...

Everything i said was only relatively to PvZ, 1,2 or 3 gate robo are all prefectly fine opening PvT.

I was referring to the possible lack of Sentries caused by spendign that 50 gas earlier making any very early Roach push more likely to be fatal. Is that not really a concern?

It's never really been that much of a concern for me, if you try to get away with a sneakier to early expansion (read: me every single game), you can run into trouble, but holding your ramp shouldnt be a problem what so ever.

I see. How about just walking up with our ball, see the Larvae morphing in at the Natural and then pull back? =p Yeah I see how Hallucination will help though. Would really give a safe, early scouting option.

Yeah but my point is, if they already built the speedlings, which isnt at all uncommon, and kill your ball in the middle of the map, you're instantly in a fair bit of trouble.