[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

You can find everything related to the drama here as well as del's original personal attack in response to his infraction.

Summary:

1. del leaves a negative comment about the race wars without reading properly that line ups weren't out yet
2. I infracted him for it as it was his fault to be so quick to make such a comment without reading
3. I also mock deL's "importance" in a neg rep and subsequent post, belittling him e.g. "grow up"
4. deL makes 400 word personal attack. Hes missing the point, his infraction was about not reading the thread and its the same way people on TL are warned for not reading the OPs and making stupid comments (your opinion shouldn't be here and ignoring the context of his attack). He follows up with negative attack on the whole of the sc2sea community, mods and drags my wife into it
5. Gets banned for 1 week for that response. The mod team and people who read it suggest it was way too lenient and him to be banned for longer.
6. I realise in his anger he also went on to cancel the BSGCL, and furthermore delete the OP which had all information to ensure no one else would be able to continue it.
7. Ban is extended indefinitely, loses Nirvana's trust and is thus removed as Team Au Manager without consulting the Aus team
8. deL's removal as manager is announced in the NW2 thread and comments from del's friends result. Everything is moved here so threads don't get derailed

---

"my comment about putting down tournaments not organised by him"
It didn't manifest out of thin air, and i remember how discouraging it was for me as I experienced this first hand. When I first started organising stuff on TL or first created sc2sea when we were nothing - one of the first few comments would always be by del and be something negative / sarcastic. Then I realised he did this for any every other organiser in SEA as well. Some examples

sc2sea.com's weekly KOTH - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=154412
del "so will this be like a one-day only SEA event cos we will all go to the US server?"

Ichors tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=199391
del "Still has to be better than $20 first prize even if it's $20,000 of mousepads." (this just seems like somewhat negative but useful feedback. The tourney ended up going with a consolidated monthly $100 prize)

When sc2sea first started out - http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=13683#post13683
del "I think we should maybe aim a bit lower, and at least get SC2SEA to a level where it's mediocre first. "

There are countless other examples this was just a quick 5 minute search.

Do I think he really wants to help the community? Does he ever make such comments when hes part of the event? I.e Nation Wars. Does he view us as a threat? He loves being in charge (as do you) and when someone else comes along his position feels threatened. Hence my comment about him always putting down other organisers. This is a side of del that his friends would not have experienced. He goes out of his way to put down tournaments, and does not have a good relationship with some other organisers because of this. del-benji, del-dox, del-nirvana. In many cases he has been supported by his friends TA vs Benji, FXO vs DoX, TA vs nirvana.

In my opinion if he truly cared about the community he would never have left such remarks, and would have helped encourage or support organisers or give them the means to be able to reach out to the community. For e.g the BSGs, GPDs, and now even the BSGCL were not any of my ideas, people approached me with them by PM and I took the time to encourage them to go with it, helped them with the rules/format/templates, ran them through the organising process and provided them the structure to run it to reach out to the community. (All of which support your website and the GM Manual)

Now compare my actions with del's and you will see a huge difference in the way we do things and grow communities (Nirvana the Savior of SEA >>> deL the Troll is what this sounds like). If TA did not have a BSG team, do you honestly think del would have even created a BSG league in the first place? (absolutely yes, he's created tournaments and leagues with 0 vested interest before beyond living in the region e.g. SoO I&II) Im not saying he created it solely for TA but when he does "community" stuff its always aligned with his own interests(stuff like this makes the summary feels like a personal attack on deL). TA wasn't doing so hot in BSGCL (irrelevant, the league is for fun, it wasn't some diabolical plot for TA to showcase it's BSG prowess -.-) and FXO was giving him pressure and hence my comment about making events when its aligned to his own interests. Rossi he didn't just get a gentle reminder, he got yelled it for spending so much time on NON-FXO (so the guy's getting yelled at and belittled from both sides, let alone any RL issues, no wonder he lost it) stuff just before I infracted him (which i did not know until later of course).

Do I feel he has contributed to sc2sea? My relationship with him has always been shaky, but I always did my best to keep it neutral (and believe me that was a massive challenge). Because the events he holds even though aligned to his own interests are also aligned to mine AKA the success of my website, clan and manual does benefit the AU SC2 community and so for the greater good I've put aside our personal differences up until I provoked him, even despite my Mod team telling me to ban him repeatedly since the site first began. Recall

del "I think we should maybe aim a bit lower, and at least get SC2SEA to a level where it's mediocre first. " (Harsh but true at the time, baby steps are the way to go. The OP had his head in the clouds)

He was basically always putting us down in multiple threads right from the start at the crucial point where we really needed support. And only when we started becoming big and successful did he start being positive because he wanted to be part of the influence and exposure we were getting (derogatory speculation). The people who have helped build this community are the ones who really give their time (which deL has) or their money, from the donators to the organisers who take their time to run stuff or normal members who take the time to make constructive posts and help others with their strategy. Playing in tournaments and winning prizes does not contribute to building the community. Yes, some of TA have played a big part and if I had to identify people from TA who have helped the most it would probably be Pinder/EdgE to a certain extent for good posts, Fourby a regular donator (who recently joined TA), Paroxysm who organised many events and most recently Edarus who is helping organise the BSGCL.

---

"freedom of speech"

If there wasn't any this thread wouldn't exist afaik this thread is a first and a result of complaints about the delete/edit modding.

basically its brought up continuously by del/deth their friends. I call them "friends" and not "TA" because i have nothing against TA nor do i hold any grudges because they belong to TA. Most of TA are perfectly fine people and if they post something negative I attribute it to be because they are supporting their friends out of friendship and that is what good friends do. Why is this so? Because in over 30,000 posts there have been no other people who were not from TA who have had any problems whatsoever with the way sc2sea is run (XeeN must be the first then -.-). If you remove del/deth related posts there would be 0 posts with people who have a problem.

This also ties in with the freedom of speech / expression argument. Apart from del/deth/zanoku/uncletom/Mancannon (rossi's blog? It's hard to know what else has been deleted) I have never had to delete anyone's posts. When faced with the predicament of "preserving someones freedom of speech" or "deleting the thread for the good of the community" the later we be chosen every single time and its not close at all. (This is what many of us have a problem with. Since when are you the arbiter of what is 'good for the community'? No one person should be able to just outright decide someone else's opinion on a community forum is immature/inappropriate and delete it. Alot of the TA members resent having your values imposed upon them. TL is FAR more impartial. IMO there should be more transparency like this thread, maybe a deleted post thread similar to the TL banlist?)

1. I don't want people to open threads and see it derailed with battles of personal opinions/ "freedom of speech".
Case in point - KPoP thread. An exciting thread with potential for meetups with the community turned into an immature battle of musical preference. (Why does the community have to abide by your idea of maturity and class? It's like being back in school, give people the freedom to post what they want as long as it's not abusive/racist etc. Modding for immaturity on a forum with many young gamers will just build resentment. Set a good example by all means but don't play the teacher)

2. I dont want people to be offended by racist / sexual remarks and then "decide for themselves if they are offended by it"
Case in point - ManCannon's constant sexual remarks about kelly

3. I dont want the reputation system to be abused, however vulnerable it may inherently be.
Tagging certain people actually proved to be amazing deterrent to stop the abuse even though i copped so much shit at the start for implementing it. The reputation system is now used so much better as evidenced in this thread. See this thread http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2011

That thread is a perfect example of how people can express opinions but still keep it civil, and it becomes a good read. It never derails into immaturity or personal attacks and this is the way "difference of opinions" should be communicated. These are in my opinion what makes forms good, a pleasant environment people can enjoy which produces good feelings rather than a troll filled preservation of everyone's opinion (there can be a balance, TL is a great model, use it). Other sites who dont have harsh moderation CG, BA etc will suffer, sc2sea will not. TL will not. There are ways to bring across the same message rather than being so overtly negative

Sorry about the long quote but the OP just doesn't sit well with me and I guess this is the thread for this kind of discussion. The summary would be much more balanced coming from another mod with a separate Nirvana opinion piece (much of the 2nd half). For an impartial summary it's pretty heavily biased, anti-deL and exaggerated. Most of the balancing edits are highlighted.

Quick Comments

	[TA]LoSt:
	Nvdeth:	so much truth..
	faithHunter:	Respect.

[[TA]LoSt]

I'm in the same position as almost everyone is in regards to this thread; we can see where both people are in the wrong and I don't need to comment any further on that. However, this..

Originally Posted by AZKziek

I'm not a big fan of deL and I think it's good his reign has finally come to an end (He got away with way too much, I'm glad he's no longer here, a step forward for sure).
EDIT: Now that his position has been flushed away, what does it take for one to take his place?

... The reign of deL? You have to be trolling right now.. What do you think deL is trying to take over the SC2SEA site? Or thinks he runs the place? Please..

If you hadn't noticed, when SC2SEA started and SEA events were posted on TL, TA members (including deL) recommended posting the thread on this website and using this site for SEA related tournaments etc. The fact you call it the reign of deL makes it look like he's either done nothing but attempt to trash this website or has attempts to overtake this website; neither of which are true. Regardless of how much you hate the guy, his attempts to grow the SEA community even before sc2 was released (I didn't see anyone else stepping up when Australian BW was basically dead) went unmatched for such a long period of time and you can't deny that.

The point is, what's happened here is obviously deserved and everybody knows his retaliation was uncalled for, however you implying that everything he's done for the community is because of his own personal gain is a joke.

Goodluck taking his place, hopefully you have your own reign too one day..

[Nvdeth]

@nirvana's rep comment before, i never said del didnt make a personal attack on you. Like has been established previously,his attack was emotional and heated after your snide remarks and jabs at him.

Your response and the OP to this thread shows a meticulous and devious attempt to pass off your own personal attacks and opinions however as truth and trustworthy/honest. Scarecrow does a great job at highlighting everything in his post.

The worst possible thing you can do here, and you're even still showing it with your rep comment towards me, is that you're trying to take the moral high ground. Stop it.

[nirvAnA]

Yes it was pretty biased because it was my take of the situation and what i believe to be true, its my perspective of things rather than a neutral report. I would have avoided this situation if i left it to baka/sky to moderate his comment instead but then again i remember how baka handled the KPOP thread and proceeded to get attacked with demands for explanations on why people were infracted, from del + friends yet again of course.

He did not just lose my trust, he lost the trust and respect of alot of people, I received many message expressing disbelief of his cancellation of the BSG and his immaturity from various parts of the community even from several TA members. Hence my statement about losing the trust of the community. Obviously your opinion of del is completely different then mine, you have not seen the side of him we see. You are defending him like any other good friend or clan leader will, and its something good people do.

As for the Team AU removal, I am the one who appointed him for Season 2 in the first place. So what authority did i have to appoint him? The same that i used to remove him. Yes i am aware i cannot speak for Australia and have no right in how they are managed outside of the nation wars. But for the Nation Wars along with jump, we are the only admins. I ran Nation Wars Season 1 by myself and appointed all the respective leaders after he abruptly left as well. FYI in Nation Wars Season 1 I replaced the PH manager as well, after feedback/complaints from the PH community and I replaced the MY manager as well, putting timber in charge. I've always done replacements if i felt it was needed for the successful running of the event.

This season its my obligation to the sponsor to make sure every thing runs smoothly. I was never gonna replace del even after his rant against me, it was his cancellation of the BSG and the DELETION of the post with the information to make sure no one else could continue it which make me lose my trust in him. If I did not do backups regularly the BSGCL would be dead and gone with the only hope being me asking him if he saved the text before deleting it. I do not wish to be in that position at the mercy of him whether he decides to perform his AU managerial duties properly or not and do not want to risk the event. I had a discussion with Jump and we agreed to replace him.

Read Erasmus post again.
If deL just accepted his infraction, no harm done, just try a tiny bit harder when posting in future... Instead he cancels the one big community thing he's been doing, and tries to sabotage it so noone can continue to run it without him. That doesn't strike me as the guy a lot of you people claim has selflessly done so much for australian starcraft, just a petty guy who wants more recognition and doesn't want any one else to have a share in it.

Yes, of course literally not every single thing del did was purely aligned to his own interests but most of the time I have felt it to be such. Hence the difference in the way he treated organisers and the way I treated them. Why would you continually shoot down sc2sea (when we first started) or other people who are trying to organise tournaments for the community? Scarecrow are you actually defending his statement "I think we should maybe aim a bit lower, and at least get SC2SEA to a level where it's mediocre first?" That post was done in just March, 2011 and even if he believes that to be true would someone who is truly interested in building the community say something like that? These are valid points in my post which cant be ignored and the same goes for the negative remarks in the other organiser threads that i have shown.

As for "Why does the community have to abide by your idea of maturity and class?" TL is similar they have a clearly spelt out "Its our house so abide to our rules" page. I created the site in my vision of what a community should be like. I dislike obvious trolling or racists posts that will offend people. It will be moderated in my vision and my values just like TL was made in Nazgul's vision.

+ [TL Rules] +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...topic_id=17883
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE

This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.

2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING
4. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE
5. THOU SHALL NOT SPAM
6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
7. ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE
8. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
9. READ THE COMMANDMENTS
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN

Pretty sure del would have been banned without any explanation or this thread to justify our actions if he did such a personal attack on TL to Nazgul. Nazgul is alot wiser then me and doesn't ban people himself. Although he did take alot of heat from being involved in the Maphacking/win trading saga which banned Dimaga and a few others from TSL in SC1 but thats because he has very strong anti-hacker/cheating values and felt he needed to get involved.

Do I think it became a better place after all the trolls were removed? Mancannon, Zan, etc? Yes. Do i think it will be a better place when moderated in my vision? Yes. It has been extremely successful thus far and will continue to be for a long time. del + friends might not find it fair or that "freedom of speech" thing but you guys have your own website feel free do what you want there, nobody is stopping you or imposing their views on how you run your site.

Theres a part you dont see. Its like someone posting on your TA website something negative about one of your TA invitational events which you did out of good will and sponsored your own time and prizes, for e.g the one u invited huk some guy replies in the very first post "why are all these TA noobs playing in it", which is a clearly stupid thing to say since its a TA invitational after all and TA are far from noobs. Now this doesn't happen once but he had a history of these comments happening over and over again, you have already warned him nicely, did him the courtesy of pming/skpyped/msning him in private instead many times and its tricky because he organises events too for the country hes from and has strong ties with the clan he is in, which happens to be the largest and strongest clan in his country. Still despite of your warnings nothing works he keeps doing it and then have you delete his comments that go overboard or moderate him and then he calls his buddies and have a massive a freedom of speech argument and it happens every single time you moderate him and he says that its a community site where the rules should not be decided by you. Yes I know TA is not entirely a community site but the point is you have to view things from our perspective sometimes. I am not unreasonable or irrational and there are reasons behind my actions and he has been given so many chances for the stuff he has said.

If you look at positive and negative posts in this thread its basically del + friends vs nirvana + community yet again. Apart from Xeen who is always neutral and makes good comments which I value its hard to consider the other feedback because no one else apart from TA has problems with the way the site is run. I was obviously wrong to mix my personal comments with my moderation I have said that many times in this thread already but i stand by my opinion of del and the removal of his managerial role for the nation wars.

[Dox]

This thread is exhausting to read... everyone just needs to chill out and get along. We're all here for the same reason - we all love SC2 and we wanna get together with other huge nerds who love SC2. I know a lot of people enjoy using the internet for their own emotional outlet when they're feeling stressed or frustrated, but there are better ways to do it. (ie. Make a smurf account, search 4v4 RT and cannon rush your allies.)

There's no denying that deL has contributed countless efforts towards the SC2/SEA communities, and so has nirvAnA. Without either of them, we wouldn't have a community/website as awesome as this. Taking sides and pointing fingers does nothing but aggravate and divide the community. We're isolated enough as it is (Small Potatoes), so let's try to be more positive, more mature and more respectful of eachother.

Here's a picture of two cute puppies to make everyone smile.




Peace.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAriiChard:	but edrama is fun ... ehhh fine
	TAsCarLet:	those puppies make me want to kill people

[AZKziek]

Interesting to see all of TA support TAdeL, perhaps a poll should exist on whether or not he should be permanently banned with friends of deL unable to vote.

Quick Comments

	TAShiHao:	Keep your fingers in your pants if you have nothing better to add.
	[TA]LoSt:	Jump on the bandwagon some more bro
	Nvdeth:	try harder next time
	TAriiChard:	If it was all of TA ... It would have been atleast 70 people
	NvPinder:	Perhaps a poll should exist on whether or not you should be permanently banned with no one but TA allowed to vote cos that would make just as much sense if not more
	TAsCarLet:	how does cock taste, let me know.
	TAminimat:	I dont ^.^ but the way you suggested isnt good or fair. If he breaks the rules he should be banned, not on a community vote.
	aLtShortizz:	Ziek's comment was pretty stupid, but honestly, u guys do somehow proved his point.

[Nvdeth]

Originally Posted by Dox

This thread is exhausting to read... everyone just needs to chill out and get along. We're all here for the same reason - we all love SC2 and we wanna get together with other huge nerds who love SC2. I know a lot of people enjoy using the internet for their own emotional outlet when they're feeling stressed or frustrated, but there are better ways to do it. (ie. Make a smurf account, search 4v4 RT and cannon rush your allies.)

There's no denying that deL has contributed countless efforts towards the SC2/SEA communities, and so has nirvAnA. Without either of them, we wouldn't have a community/website as awesome as this. Taking sides and pointing fingers does nothing but aggravate and divide the community. We're isolated enough as it is (Small Potatoes), so let's try to be more positive, more mature and more respectful of eachother.

Here's a picture of two cute puppies to make everyone smile.




Peace.

As much as id like to believe in a utopian community where everything is fun and games and we all hold hands/sing kumbaya, its not really practical. I'm actually pretty impressed that nirvana has left this thread open for conflict to be aired and discussed pretty much freely, and I hope that we can get more of this in the future. What we have had the most issue with in the past is that everything got deleted and only one side of the story (ie. not ours/TA/del etc) was visible to the community.

With a thread like this, conflict can be managed and everyone gets a chance to have their say, and observers can make up their own minds. A community without conflict where everyone got along and agreed with everything everyone says would be a boring place too. Conflict managed properly can really improve a community too!

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by AZKziek

Interesting to see all of TA support TAdeL, perhaps a poll should exist on whether or not he should be permanently banned with friends of deL unable to vote.

5 TA guys replied on this thread. 4 including me believe that both parties were in the wrong leading to much discussion of which I believe has benefited everyone... You're stupid.

That is all.

[Nemo]

TAriiChard, I'm really relieved deL felt bad immediately about his racist comments. He will still have to apologizes himself for it.

I think that we must really separate the topic of moderation policy and the attitude of deL. I would like to express an opinion on moderation policy but that's not the place to do it. deL is perfectly entitled to express whatever opinion he has on this subject, the problem discussed here is how he did it and the consequences it had.

Originally Posted by Dox

There's no denying that deL has contributed countless efforts towards the SC2/SEA communities, and so has nirvAnA. Without either of them, we wouldn't have a community/website as awesome as this. Taking sides and pointing fingers does nothing but aggravate and divide the community.

Originally Posted by [TA]LoSt

I'm in the same position as almost everyone is in regards to this thread; we can see where both people are in the wrong and I don't need to comment any further on that.

For what I read there is no much to add to the analysis of the problem itself. I think we should now see how to settle this wisely as I understand deL is ban indefinitely :

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Ban is extended indefinitely,

I will try to summarize the roots of the problems as I have understood them from a exterior point of view :

• deL is an important part of Australian eSport since a long time
• nirvAnA, his team and the community has build a very successful site in seasc2.com
• deL and certain people have been unhappy with the moderation policy and expressed it
• deL expressed it and other things sometimes the wrong way (trollism, harsh comments) and got infracted and banned several times for that
• deL crossed the line with his last message (racism, personal attacks, trash talk on moderation team and TGM, etc.) and cancellation of BSGCL tournament.
• deL is banned indefinitely
• nirvAnA makes the mistake of moderating himself while he is the main target of deL
• Certain people think deL should not be excluded definitely as he is important part of the community.

My conclusion (and that's only my opinion) is :

• deL must apologizes to nirvAnA and community for his bad behavior and especially his racist remark. Anglo-Saxons people have that good tradition of public apology, use it. He also has to really commit to follow the rules of sc2sea (aka no more troll and trying to be more positive (don't say "you suck", but : "good initiative, here what I could suggest to improve it :"). Yeah, that seems disgustingly Care-Bearly good, but that's the rules as they are for now, everyone has to follow them until changed.
• THEN deL should be reintegrated in the sc2sea community after having served a certain time of ban (punishment for breaking the rules).
• Independently, nirvAnA should open a separate thread to debate the moderation policy to avoid that permanent guerrilla against that policy that sometimes pollutes certain other topics and conversations. Everyone will be able to express freely its opinion there about it considering it's still the sc2sea team house and they will still have the final word. But a clear debate is the better way of narrowing the gap between everyone opinions on the subject.

Once again that's just my opinion as what we should do to settle this the best way. Other paths are possible but this one seems to me the best way to restore friendship between people involved here.

I hope that could help ...

[Dox]

Originally Posted by TAdeth

As much as id like to believe in a utopian community where everything is fun and games and we all hold hands/sing kumbaya, its not really practical.

Whoah, let's not go that far!

Originally Posted by TAdeth

Conflict managed properly can really improve a community too!

I agree with this completely, I just hope people keep it constructive instead of just baselessly flaming eachother. (ie. Look at all the bashing/generalisations towards TA.)

[deL]

First and foremost I’d like to apologise to the SC2SEA community, and in particular the BSG community of SC2SEA, who were caught in the crossfire of an ongoing disagreement I was involved in and for the language and personal attacks that have been construed as racist or offensive in my post. I immediately regretted what was said in the post.

Secondly I apologise to nirvana and his wife, who again was unnecessarily included in this personal disagreement. As for mentioning nirvana’s wife, I didn't mean to directly offend her but it was extremely inappropriate none the less and I regret doing it. To nirvana specifically I withdraw and apologise for accusations of favouritism towards aLt or Singapore that are clearly untrue. I also recognise the effort you put in to the site and the asset that sc2sea is in consolidating and growing the community. Similarly I apologise to the admins of the site that I insulted in my post and want to thank them for their work and effort and encourage them to keep it up.

In particular I want to sincerely apologise for the aforementioned racist and offensive insults that were made public. I never intended anything I wrote to be racist, but have since heard that many people felt differently. I was angry and frustrated and it showed in my childish response that was not fit for private conversation let alone a public forum. Anyone who took real exception to anything that was said I implore you to send me a Private Message and discuss it with me and see how I can make it up to you or explain myself if possible.

Finally, if we can take anything positive out of this it is that many of the differences in opinion or problems myself and the SC2SEA staff had have been brought to light and aired out a bit. Some of the things we have reached agreements on where they might have still been there now affecting future relations between members of the community. I will seek to improve my attitude towards the staff and members of sc2sea and hope in turn I can regain your trust. Hopefully in the future any misunderstandings or criticisms can be approached civilly in a more constructive atmosphere.

[nirvAnA]

Apology accepted.

Ban is no longer indefinite and will be removed after a reasonable period of time.

Lets all move on.

[TAEdgE]

in other news im joining aLt

Quick Comments

	NvPinder:	Sad to see you go but good luck in future cameron.
	nGenLight:	You deserter!

[TAEdgE]

i'm not joining aLt guys.

great to see this resolved though!

[NvPinder]

I agree with deL's apology

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

Sad to see you go but good luck in the future dexter

[aLtShortizz]

Takes alot to apologize like DeL did and for Nirvana to accept it, both players deserves respect for that. Nirvana's willingness to take advice and even some criticism is very encouraging as i believe he would definitely add this to his Mod-ing experience.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	Nemo:
	TAriiChard:

[Nemo]

You did what you had to do, deL, and you did it well.

[duckie]