[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by rheotron

Really? I don't know if this is necessarily true.

Zealot drops/warp ins are economically viable. I mean, first of all, you'll get worker kills, 100 minerals per worker (50 for lost worker, 50 to remake) and a zealot will more than easily pay for itself once it gets into the mineral line.

In addition, he'll have to move his army back (or at least some of it) to deal with the drop. This way, you also get scouting information as well as the added bonus of delaying any pushes (at least for a few seconds). This is when you're right about pushing and warping at the same time, the army is split up meaning that it will be easier to take out.

Also, I don't know if there is a strict definition for a 'death ball', but from my perspective I think 200/200 supply. You can't warp in at 200 supply.

As I see it, unless it gets shutdown completely without doing economic damage, I'm pretty sure that a zealot/dt warp in is economically viable. That being said, I'm not pro, I could be wrong.:P

Unless your zealot got charge, or else they can just easily run away their workers and dropping will become very cost inefficient. Warp prism costing 250 minerals doesnt help much. If you did watch the match between HoSeo Sage Vs siriusfOu, he uses proxy pylons + phoenix high ground vision to warp in chargelots to harass.

Overall i think warp prism strats are quite workable on PvZ, while its alot less effective on PvT.

[aLtNinja]

The idea with warp prism zealot harass is generally not to kill drones, they are normally warped into the back of the main, with or without dts to snipe key tech structures and force the zerg army to move out of position leaving his expansions open, it can also be used to buy time to secure more bases or tech.

[Yonge]

I don't really play protoss but how long would it take to get the tech to be able to get a warp prism to someone's base (obviously with warpgate upgrade)? 7 mins or something? same timing as drop play?

i'm actually more intrigued by the warp prism play. WhiteRa uses it pretty often and seems to have some success with it. maybe for the reason that ppl don't see it very often so they don't expect it. I'd have to say I've been caught off guard a few times by warp prisms (not necessarily with DTs) and have been almost crippled by them.

[rheotron]

Originally Posted by stormninja

The idea with warp prism zealot harass is generally not to kill drones, they are normally warped into the back of the main, with or without dts to snipe key tech structures and force the zerg army to move out of position leaving his expansions open, it can also be used to buy time to secure more bases or tech.

What's the benefit of killing tech structures over drones? I mean, apart from the obvious. Why is it better to kill say a Hydra den than to kill 5-10 drones? Economically, I would have thought that the drones would have been better?

[Next_rim]

Warp prism is instrumental in midgame PvT, if you need to ninja some DT behind turret-heavy frontline, or want to delay 11 min push. It is especially good on Shakuras and TA for obvious reasons.

In all other cases, a proxy pylon is better. In PvZ, you can put pylons in locations of possible 4th and 5th, it really pays off late game. I use "lategame" proxies all the time on all maps. On Shakuras, I like to put a pylon directly on 4th base, then somewhere on the edge, and at the rocks, even though I play all-air. By min 16 I have 3 warpgates (1 from start, and I usually use 2-3 gateways as cheap wall for 4th base). I then add DT shrine, and whoa - I have an awesome harass unit. With pylons already placed all over the map, I don't even need any prisms.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Protoss players dont use warp prism because of 4 reasons

1. Robo facility is normally used for making collosus and u dont have the spare time of making warp prism.
2. A proxy pylon can do a similar job for 100 minerals
3. Most importantly, protoss have no stimmed marines / marauders that have high dps that can do enough damage to the opponent for their cost.
4. Warp prism are so slow that it cant escape in time.

Back to the topic, you shouldnt have the wrong composition if you scouts him constantly. If he is going ling/muta, you should be able to know when u notice that he doesnt have roaches. You should be able to change your composition.

About coming back, it is possible to come back with a collosus/gateway composition. Just suicide ur zealots to his 3rd/4th while warping in tons of stalkers to counter the mutas. Get blink ASAP.

Agreed with the reasons why Warp prism play sucks. Add to that the fact that Zerg will probably see it coming with their overlord spread and that Terran either has vikings out in play or is mobile enough to quickly react to a warp prism.

There are certain warp prism based all ins used against 1 rax FE Terran builds with the goal of bypassing the bunkers entirely and whilst that's annoying as **** to deal with it's not really the strongest way to punish 1 rax FE, imo. Against Zerg you might try and be cute and FF off his ramp with a warp prism but don't count on that working against competent people.

In general, I think there's a more fundamental flaw then "how do I play from this bad spot". The only time you built the wrong units as protoss is if you got hit by a timing you didn't expect and it has to be something pretty severe. Like if you happen to be playing against ST_Ace and he goes pure zealot/sentry and you hit him with about 12 blue flames and roast all his units and his probe line (hehehehe). There's nothing generally wrong with having lots of zealot/sentry (especially with FF's like his), they were just the wrong unit at the time and ther'es **** all you can do about that.

Or against Zerg. If you've got too many zealots vs zerg then, well, why were you building zealots? Zealots suck in that matchup after a certain point; midgame. Either you're doing a sweet timing attack with them or they're a waste. Just float the mins, find a way to dump them in expos, pylons and cannons and build stalkers like a normal protoss.

And 200/200 is a fine time to push. How could it not be? Your army ain't getting any bigger. Hell, you can build more warpgates behind it if you're banking a ton of money and reinforce from like 40 warpgates directly onto him. Nothing wrong with that.

Quick Comments

ToRDeathsFang:

[aLtNinja]

Originally Posted by rheotron

What's the benefit of killing tech structures over drones? I mean, apart from the obvious. Why is it better to kill say a Hydra den than to kill 5-10 drones? Economically, I would have thought that the drones would have been better?

The only time where i have seen protoss use them is in the lategame, to me it seems like a tactic to come back from behind, in the late game a zerg will have 2-3 spines and a spore at every base but it is not yet common to build them in the main, sniping the main lair/hive will stop overseers from being morphed in and give you a large period of time where it is hard to be attacked.
The other reason is key tech structures like infestation pit and greater spire have been really hard to deal with for protoss lately, and when a zerg is maxed killing drones doesn't really mean anything because they can just rebuild them.

[porkchop]

im a toss player too, quite low though ,
there is a segment in YOUTUBE/mrbittertv, where he talks with whitrah , i think its a series, and they cover all matchups ,

6gate when a zerg goes for its 3rd always works, just scout 1st ,
200/200 for toss is imba, with the right amounts of sentris and stalkers, templars and zealots, even without colosi , , its imba , against any army ...

wanna play a few ? practise in SEA,

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by porkchop

im a toss player too, quite low though ,
there is a segment in YOUTUBE/mrbittertv, where he talks with whitrah , i think its a series, and they cover all matchups ,

6gate when a zerg goes for its 3rd always works, just scout 1st ,
200/200 for toss is imba, with the right amounts of sentris and stalkers, templars and zealots, even without colosi , , its imba , against any army ...

wanna play a few ? practise in SEA,

Without collosus, i totally disagree that its imba.

Lets say in PvT, a few money EMP will just make ur army useless without storms, without forcefields.

In PvZ, its a little more strong with templars and ffs. But i believe when you have templar tech, the zerg AT LEAST, have infestor tech or hydra or good upgrades. PvZ templars are pretty strong but i feel that they are extremely micro intensive and you can easily die to strong zerg counter attacks/ multi-pronged attacks/ nydus and harass. In conclusion, i think the Protoss 200/200 imba deathball have disappeared in PvZ after the innovation by zerg progamers like baneling drops + infestors and stuff.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Agreed. ProAnnn so smart.

[Next_rim]

In conclusion, i think the Protoss 200/200 imba deathball have disappeared in PvZ

New style deathball - mommaship, 4x carriers and xload of voidrays. For some reason, ladder zerg have so much trouble dealing with it

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

New style deathball - mommaship, 4x carriers and xload of voidrays. For some reason, ladder zerg have so much trouble dealing with it

Oh DARN. I invented that build. Who the hell popularized it? Its very weak to timing attacks with nydus hydras before u get above 4 carriers. Directly countered by nydus. You should try.