[Zanderax]

I have been recently thinking about the quality of play in the lower leagues and I have come to the conclusion that BSG is split into two groups.

1) The Cheesers
2) The Thinkers

We all know what the Cheesers are like; 6, 7, 8 Pool, 4 Gates, Bunker Rushes and the worst of the lot, Cannon Rushes. But the thinkers start a game with an overall plan of the game that utilizes strengths of their race and they know which units to get out and how to maximize their troops.

Now everyone knows there are no Cheesers in the GSL or the TSL or any other high level competition. I know that only few Cheesers exist in the Master League and almost all of them would be crushed by the play in the Grandmaster league. We begin to see Cheesers appear in the diamond league and by the time you hit bronze it can be hard to wade through the SEA of these offensive low interest players.

Without wins you cannot go up divisions and without going up divisions you will get pitted against cheese again and again and ultimately you will lose. This is what I think drags a lot of good BSG thinkers down and keeps them from getting higher in their server.

Some say you must fight cheese with cheese but I see two problems with that idea.

1) Cheese is not as fun as a full well thought out game.
2) This will produce another Cheeser and in a year or two we may see leagues like Platinum and Diamond be full of Cheesers.

My solution is to discourage cheese (more so than already) and educate the BSG players (there are already fabulous people doing this.)

My problem is coming across people who say that can do what they like, yes that is technically true but I think many will find it more satisfying to learn to play properly.

I want to encourage low level players to find the fun in playing a game for longer than 10 minutes.

Together we can Make Cheese History

Quick Comments

NvPinder:

'and almost all of them would be crushed by the play in the Grandmaster league' As a grandmaster player i can testify that i still lose to cheese... a lot... and that this sentence is false.

[Cute]

Not sure that I entirely agree with this post. Cheese most certainly does exist in the GSL and other leagues. It's a part of the game, and every player should know how to cheese, and it's often a good idea to throw a cheesy build into a bo3 or whatever.

I think the problem is more with BSG players not knowing how to respond appropriately to cheese, as all of it is possible to stop.

Of course, I still swear (loudly) when I lose a game to dumb cheese, but most of the times it's my fault for not scouting/reacting properly.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Can I get an Amen.
	Bendy:	Completely agree
	rezyn8:
	nirvAnA:
	Zanderax:	Thank you for boarding my perspective of the game :)
	jobmercy:	ohh yeah..that hit the spot..

[|Erasmus|]

Not everyone agrees with you that longer games are more fun. I love the elitism that makes people say that cheesing makes it not a 'proper game' (your own words). I too enjoy a good macro game, but the game would be incredibly boring if everyone held to the good old NR20 rule.

There is cheese at every level of gameplay. A lot of cheeses have very simple counters that anyone plat and higher should pull off with ease if it's scouted.

Hence there is a good amount of cheese all the way up the ladder as people try to proxy and do other things to hide the cheese. If it is not scouted and adjusted for, cheese will beat even the best players with some regularity (bit by bit anyone? yes once everyone realised he would marine-scv every game he just got manhandled, but he still made a Ro16 in the GSL).

Quick Comments

	Zanderax:
	jobmercy:	hate late game..i get anxious and pushy..

[Maynarde]

Yeah I dunno man I've seen all seasons of GSL and I've seen plenty of cheese and HEAPS of all ins. Cheese is always going to exist because regardless of whether or not you do it (I don't, ever) it IS actually a viable strategy (imo).

Losing to it sucks sure, I get pretty mad. BUT I think reactions to cheese is what BSG players suffer with, I totally agree with Cute above. Someone proficient enough at scouting and analyzing what they see will always switch to defensive mode when they smell cheese.

Quick Comments

Zanderax:

[PiG]

There are probably more cheesers at lower levels due to less understanding of the game so many see it simply as a "cool strategy". That being said cheesers exist at all levels. CombatEx consistently sits in the top 100 GM on NA and will dual proxy gate into VR every game I've played him. Indy sits in top 20 on SEA pretty consistently and even made it to the finals of ESL last night (where Redarchon crushed him) and all this guy ever seems to use is a mix of cannons, dts and voidrays.

These guys have little understanding of the game overall but they've perfected simple attacks that try to trick the opponenent and because everyone's so used to people playing 'standard' alot of people die to it.

I think the problem at the lower levels with so much cheese is that starcraft 2 is an incredibly complex game that takes alot of speed and multitasking. So for many players who aren't as dedicated the fun lies in cheesy rushes and trickery. I remember when I was new to the game going past 15 minutes was pretty scary as I had NO understanding of macro or when to expand so it was confusing as all hell. I was much happier to just thor drop zergs before they got anti-air and just hope it would win me the game.

Warcraft III was similar where at the bottom levels you would scout your opponent and he would have 20 towers walling off his base and be massing sorceress to make hjis mortars invisible so they could go around sniping your town hall's. This was the stupidest thing ever that made me rage when i lost to it but the truth of it was whenever I actually scouted it early and responded properly i pwnt them.

So yeah that all being said I do agree with your point that we should educate these lowly masses! Teach them to not be satisfied with their rightful place as cheesers and noobs. Power to the bronze league!

Seriously though most of them are happy with the cheesy strats they're using and whilst popular commentators like husky have helped give insipiration to these nubs, Douche-bags like HD have been giving them tutorials on how to do a 7 pool double spine crawler rush in ZvZ. Boycott that guy he has the worst commentary ever.

My bad if that sounded like im derailing the thread... so back on point, Zanderax start a stream show teaching the nubs how to play macro!

Quick Comments

	Bendy:	Very thoughtful
	nirvAnA:
	Zanderax:
	cottonmouth.891:	nice thoughts cheers from Zerg bsg player.
	jobmercy:	ohh yeah..that hit the spot again baby..give me some moe!

[Bendy]

I agree with everyone here. Also may I add that there is not a clear distinction between cheesers and "thinkers" as you put it simply.

I think it's accurate when I say that almost everyone has cheesed before, it's even more fun than holding cheese off! You'll find that a much clearer distinction between players is short-term vs long-term oriented. You can have these "thinkers" (as you put) execute a perfectly safe build to get them into the mid-game, but have no idea how to act from there. This is similar to a cheeser who would perhaps leave the game after his cheese failed to do any damage.

Both of the short-term oriented players (cheesing or otherwise) are really looking at the smaller picture. It's common to have them roughly copy a build order and become confused when things don't go as planned.

A masters level player (again, cheesers included) will be able to gain a long term economic advantage over weaker opponents by having a clear plan. If they cut workers at the start and severely damage the opponent's economy with an early push, these long-term players know how to press the advantage by stepping back, expanding and defending against any counter-attacks in order to seal the deal. Day9 wrote a great piece on small advantages here. That's going on a bit of a tangent.

My point is that intelligent players know how to use cheese to gain an advantage. You will definitely see cheese above BSG. It will definitely be better executed. Cheese makes the game far more interesting and unpredictable, and it helps you grow as a player when you learn how to respond to it.

Quick Comments

Zanderax:

[Zanderax]

Props to this community for forever shaping and changing how I see SC2

[NvPinder]

I have been recently thinking about the quality of play in the lower leagues and I have come to the conclusion that BSG is split into two groups.

1) The Cheesers
2) The Thinkers

Here's your first problem, you're immediately categorizing people into either: People who always cheese and people who never do, and by labeling the people who never do 'thinkers' you're giving cheesing a hugely negative connotation (which we're all 100% guilty of except maybe 'special tactics' white-ra and 'calculated risks' oxygen). This categorization is incredibly bad as it will make newer players think that ever performing any sort of cheese strat is entirely stupid of them and anytime it is performed against them they feel like they have the moral high ground of "**** that newby im better than him he just cheeses to win". Both of which are incredibly bad habbits for a new player to learn.

We all know what the Cheesers are like; 6, 7, 8 Pool, 4 Gates, Bunker Rushes and the worst of the lot, Cannon Rushes. But the thinkers start a game with an overall plan of the game that utilizes strengths of their race and they know which units to get out and how to maximize their troops.

How exactly are 6, 7, 8 pools, 4 gate rushes, bunker rushes, and 'worst of the lot' cannon rushes, not "overall plans of the game that utilize the strengths of the race and maximize their troops". Hell if anything these builds utilize each and every unit way better than macro oriented builds do, once again you're just attaching incredibly negative connotations to something when if you actually read it with an unbiased opinion, you realize that you're just owning your own argument in the face.

Now everyone knows there are no Cheesers in the GSL or the TSL or any other high level competition. I know that only few Cheesers exist in the Master League and almost all of them would be crushed by the play in the Grandmaster league. We begin to see Cheesers appear in the diamond league and by the time you hit bronze it can be hard to wade through the SEA of these offensive low interest players.

Holy ******* jesus where do I start with this paragraph? I'm assuming you weren't around when Oxygen majored in mathmatics to do a lot of calculations of how risky plays would be when he 10 minute gamed his way to third in the first SEA blizzcon invitational, or when rain took 2nd in GSL by all-inning the bajesus out of everyone on his way there? Or any of the other examples in this thread.

Without wins you cannot go up divisions and without going up divisions you will get pitted against cheese again and again and ultimately you will lose. This is what I think drags a lot of good BSG thinkers down and keeps them from getting higher in their server.

Yep, wait... what? urrr. no.

How exactly does getting pitted against cheese again and again ultimately end up in you losing more than you win making it impossible to move up divisions? what the ****? Do you really think that it's impossible to maintain a >50% ratio against people non-stop cheesing the shit out of you? How the hell do you think all the grandmasters/masters/diamonds/plats/gold/silvers managed to get past bronze? did we just magically skip the wave of terrible 30apm cannon rushers? Give me a break, you're losing because of your own inability in crises management, not because cheese is impossible to stop a good % of the time, if you dont believe me give me your account details, i guarantee you i will get you to masters MMR from wherever you are right now with a minimum 95% winrate.

Some say you must fight cheese with cheese but I see two problems with that idea.

1) Cheese is not as fun as a full well thought out game.
2) This will produce another Cheeser and in a year or two we may see leagues like Platinum and Diamond be full of Cheesers.

Who the **** are you getting that advice from? In 90% of cases, the counter to cheese is a solid safe opening with good scouting....

My solution is to discourage cheese (more so than already) and educate the BSG players (there are already fabulous people doing this.)

I appreciate your willingness to help the community, i honestly do, but you are in no position to educate anyone in the starcraft community based off of the knowledge you've showed in this post.

My problem is coming across people who say that can do what they like, yes that is technically true but I think many will find it more satisfying to learn to play properly.

You have no idea what people will enjoy more, I don't particular want to go a butfuck a dude but im not going to go around telling gay people that it would be much more satisfying sticking their dick in pussy simply because that's my inclination.

I want to encourage low level players to find the fun in playing a game for longer than 10 minutes.

If they want to do that, it will 100% happen naturally just like it did for all the rest of us that started out that way. Forcing it down their throat "YOURE ENJOYING THE GAME WRONG, DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU SUCK AND YOURE RUINING IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE" is not going to go over well for some casual bronze player who couldnt give less of a shit.

Together we can Make Cheese History

cheese/all-inning is one of the most crucial parts of meta-game. If i could be bothered i could write a 1,000 word essay on why all-in builds are incredibly crucial to high level play... But i've spent long enough debunking all the rest of your post and tbh it'd be a huge waste of time.

also if i find out this is a TA member trolling me im going to kill you.

Quick Comments

mGGSouth:

[pikk0n]

I disagree on the part on getting rid of cheese. Having ALL games follow the same boring macro IdrA crap will just make sc2 boring. The cheesers create the rage in players like IdrA and I find that these reactions make the game so much more fun. Like what cute said, scouting is important. As a random player, most people playing against me would expect cheeses but I have been doing 1 gate/rax expands, 15 hatches, etc. I am definitely familiar with all kinds of cheeses. Masters 2v2 ftw (top 18 in SEA) from cheesey ass plays. I find that having cheese in your repertoire makes you a much scarier opponent to play against and if you decide to do a macro game, it throws your opponent off completely. Also, when you're able to stop a cheese, the feeling you get is just so satisfying especially when your opponent rage quits.

I recently came up against a fellow random and my scouting failed me. Where once I would usually scout the hidden bush area on shakuras, I was overconfident and decided to ignore that location. As a result, I got proxy 2 gated and even with my stalker micro, I couldn't hold off 8 zealots without a sentry forcefielding the ramp and with blink just being researched. I blamed that to my lack of scouting and being unprepared to deal with a proxy 2 gate is just bad bad bad... It was a delayed proxy 2gate because I scouted him early, forcing him to land a gateway in his base which made me careless.

[Meatex]

I can understand how the OP feels
When I face cheese even if I scout it and have plenty of time to prepare and walk over it i get to the point where I simply couldn't be bothered wasting my time defending the cheesing the massing a counter attacking and kill him only for him to try and hide nexii or CC's around the map.
So i not that a P has too few units and is likely going for dts I will roach ling rush trying to get in before dts get out. I don't quite bust through in time to stop dt but i get in do a tonne of damage force his dts to kill my army while i prepare at home.
I gg just because I didn't have the patience after so many cheeses - some lost some won - that I would rather give him the win.
Same with terran when I bust into his base cause I sense banshees, do a lot of damage and he flies away i'd rather give him the win even if all i need to do is get mutas.
Not always but sometimes I just get sooooo tired of my opponents doing retarded bs regardless of win or lose I feel like the game was a waste

[cruxis]

CombatEx is in Grandmaster and his standard opening is cannon rush/contain. When you do it to put yourself ahead in tech/econ and not to win the game, it's a pretty valid strategy.

[DeNile]

As a bronze who trys to play macro often failing epicly. I do cheese every now and again as it is very aggressive fun way to play if I only have limited time online.

Often though I'm the recipient of cheese and 90percent of the time I lose to it from poor scouting and slow reaction time. If only I placed that forcefield in time,dam lings.

In the end of the day ppl in bronze and silver will do whatever build there successful in. And as long as a 6 pool will win mor then half the time they will do it. So the best way to educate is to show ways of stoping cheese making these builds less successful for the average b-s player.

[iM yang]

I would say something to disagree with the OP but JP demolished it.

[EveMassacrisM]

I cheese from time to time just so I would be unpredictable as a player. Even now I know lots of players in GMs who have only 1-2 openings against Zerg and they have no idea how much of an disadvantage that is to them.

It's sadder sometimes that I still lose to those builds even when I know what's coming, but that's irrelevant >.>

[Zanderax]

Please understand that this is the way I saw the game, I apologize if I've offended anyone.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Zanderax

Please understand that this is the way I saw the game, I apologize if I've offended anyone.

It's all good man. People that read the thread will realise that you've changed your initial outlook from the OP. Enjoy your laddering.

Quick Comments

Cute:

[nirvAnA]

This is slightly out of topic because it is not really relevant to OP's idea of how cheesing keeps players in BSG but nevertheless it attempts to answer the question "Why you might be stuck in BSG" and i hope BSG players reading this will find it useful.

In my opinion the main reason why the majority of players are stuck in BSG is largely because of their mechanics, a skill many of them tend to overlook. This stems from one of these issues:

1. Starcraft was one of their first "competitive RTS" games and their mechanical skillset is largely undeveloped. They have low apm, do not use hotkeys/short cut keys, don't know mechanical "tricks" like using way points or the SHIFT/CRTL/F1 keys.
2. They simply do not have time to play the game. Generally repetition and time is what is needed to improve mechanics and because they have not enough time to play they lack the continual repetition needed to improve their mechanics.

Starcraft isn't a hard game, and most BSG players already have a decent understanding of strategy. Just from watching GSL or "pro replays" you can get a general idea of the strategies vs each race and basically that level of strategic knowledge is all you need to advance from BSG. (The subtle timings/understanding is really not important at this level) So why can't people simply follow what they see on GSL or watch a replay of oGsMC and suddenly play just like him? It is because mechanical skills are alot less intuitive, they cant be learnt from just watching and they lack these skills to execute what they have seen.

After helping quite a few BSG players with replay analysis, in the end it always comes down to them having a mechanics/macro problem that they feel is not the main cause of the skill celling when it actually is. And this actually harms them in the long run because they end up wrongly classifying builds and strategies as flawed when they were actually viable if not for their mechanics that let them down. Alot of the time this also converges with thoughts of imbalance and why the other race has so much more units or better units etc which again harms the players growth.

This is why i recommend players take a learning approach and spend time studying the correct methods etc especially if sc2 was your first game or you don't have the time to "put in the hours" It was one of the reasons why i decided to write TGM,- to cater to BSG players who wanted to improve quickly but were busy with their jobs or other commitments and did not have the time to spend searching how to - so all the knowledge you needed could be found in one place. While some of the information might be found somewhere else maybe even for free, what is the cost of your time to find a series of high quality articles catered to you and how much would you have to go through to find what is actually useful and not wrong information which will hurt your game?

So basically the steps to improve your mechanics are as follows:

1. realise that mechanics are extremely important and spend time learning how to improve them
2. start by mastering the mechanical controls/game interface
3. and then mastering the art of macro.

If you do have the time however, for e.g you are a student and have tons of free time, the best places for learning this will be simply to watch all of day9.tv episodes which would be extremely educational. Ignore "Steal his build" or top replay analysis for now, you want to focus on the core basic control stuff, and watch first person streams and try to emulate their mastery of the game interface. Your next step would be to scour the teamliquid strategy section. Although alot of it is disorganised because the authors simply have no incentive to dedicate a large amount of time streamlining their thoughts) there are some really good quality gems in there, just that it might take some time to find what you're looking for.

[FSDarkNemesis]

But Getting cheesed over and over again, that tactic is extremely extremely aggravating! I hate getting cheese, like well beyond any comprehension. Defending a cheese is beyond my capabilities right now.

2 words:
Phuck Cheesers.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by UltimateDeep

But Getting cheesed over and over again, that tactic is extremely extremely aggravating! I hate getting cheese, like well beyond any comprehension. Defending a cheese is beyond my capabilities right now.

2 words:
Phuck Cheesers.

Steps to making at least gold:
1. Find a friend who plays SC2.
2. Play custom games against that friend. Get them to cheese you with the same build (6 pool, 4 gate, proxy 2 gate, 2 port banshee, w/e) every single game until you can beat it a few times in a row.
3. Go steal those noobs ladder points.

As an addendum to point 2, don't do stupid, stupid things because you know you're getting cheesed. Use a normal B/O and scout... see what the opponent is doing and learn to recognise it, then make a change to try and live through it.

[neon]

Well, as a platinum player (I got there early in S1, I'm probably mid gold but it didn't demote me when I started playing again a few days ago, so whatever!).

I lost to 5 games in a row today to, DT's (Not scouted), Banshee, (guessed but didn't prepare enough), Fast Void ray(didn't scout it), DT's again(didn't scout) and 6 pool (got my drone to his spawn last, cross map on metal, zvz, he managed to make a spine just out of creep sight (forgot that was possible)).

Every game I knew had things I should have done to beat it, namely scout and prepare accordingly. I just look at it from the method of, would x or y pro lose to this player, likely not, and why ? not because he has 200 apm, or because he built more drones, likely because he scouted and responded appropriately, if the strat was unbeatable, it'd probably be nerfed (except clearly Terran 2 rax bunker push).

Still, it is frustrating sometimes.