[Next_rim]

Initial build: forge-expand into stargate
Problem: Timed push (11:30-12:00 mark)
Goal: unorthodox solution, differentiate ladder experience
Assumptions: P is epic at denying scouting, zerg assumes standard ground play into colossi.

Normally you would want to get some sentries and colossi out, repel his push, then fight for that 3rd, trick him into getting too much corruptors, get blinkstalkers, outmicro broodlords etc etc etc. Good old standards.

I went different path in a pvz this morning, threw down 2-nd stargate and fleet beacon. At 13 mins I had 4 1:0 carriers (and 2 more on the way) and some negligible ground army. WOW, carriers rape hydra with catapults, they have same, if not better, range than colossi, and are fairly effective dps-wise. I'm inviting to join my thought-in-process here:

Hydra: 80 hp, 1 armor (with upgrade 1:1)
1:0 Carrier vs 1:1 hydra: interceptor damage 2x5, attack speed 3, dps = 10/3x8 = 26,6. Takes 3 seconds to kill a hydra (since interceptors don't all move at the same time, 0,2 is negligible).
1:0 Colossus vs 1:1 hydra: 15x2 attack, attack speed 1,64, dps = 30/1.64 = 18,29 (Colossus does splash on average of 3 units, let's make it 18,29 to 54,87 dps on hydra ball, depending on positioning). Takes 4,34 seconds to kill 1-3 hydra.

4,34/3-1 = 44% 1-target advantage for carrier dps. The longer the battle lasts, the better the carrier is, even despite colossus splash.

Won't do the math for roaches, since roaches pose 0 threat to carriers. Carriers just beat on the from the skies.

Let's compare costs with my build from the points I finish building my mapcontrol voidray+ scouting phoenix from my opening stargate (8 min mark):

Carrier: add 2nd stargate (150/150, build time 120. Can add this structure at the same time you are getting phoenix, not to extend 2nd carrier by 40 seconds), add fleet beacon (300/200, build time 80), catapult upgrade (150/150, research time 80). Total of 600/500. Carrier unit cost: 450/250, build time 140 seconds. Time till 1st carrier can be built - 80 seconds

Coloss: add robotics (200/100, build time 65), add bay (200/200, build time 65), coloss range upgrade (200/200, research time 150). Total of 600/500. Coloss unit cost: 300/200, build time 75 seconds. Time till 1st colossus can be built - 130 seconds.

So, it takes me 80 seconds to start building a carrier, and in 220 seconds I get 2 carriers with catapult ready. 11:30 mark, when zerg supposedly moves out to push. It takes 130 seconds to start building a colossus, and in another 150 seconds I get 2 colossus with thermal lance. 280 seconds total.

Now, at 12 mins I have 2+2x 45% ready carriers with catapult upgrade. If I tech colossus, I get 1 colossus with no upgrade, and one more on the way 65% done.

To add, with 2x stargates and no requirement to spend chrono on lance, all chronos go 100% into army boosting.

+ of carriers:
1)Better army potential at 12 min mark, faster execution
2)Forces zerg to play AA (corruptors), for which you already have air presence and upgrade advantage.
3)Negates annoying broodlord play
4)Negates powerful ultra play
5)MUCH easier positioning. If you place colossi in bad position with corruptors at bad angle, it's game. Carriers...well, they fly.
6)Fun to execute

- of carriers:
1) Easy to bypass and force into base-trade situation
2) Easy to scout and prepare hard counter in advance
3) No tech tree diversity - 100% devotion to stargate play. Hard to switch out.
4) No synergy with ground army. Basically, ground army serves as meatshield for your natural to hold those roaches.
5) There is a critical number of hydra (i believe 7 for each carrier), when hydra becomes unkillbale by carriers due to interceptors dying too fast.

+ of colossus
1) Ground unit, better roach counter, opens tech for immortals
2) Cost efficiency due to splash

- of colossus:
1) Don't counter ultra
2) Becomes useless with large corruptor count
3) Bad ffs make them much less cost-efficient.

Quick Comments

	Zanderax:	Fun fun fun for everyone. Good build idea
	Mukade:	This is a great post, well thought out as always

[cruxis]

Whenever I see forge expand, I expect air play. Without a doubt. 9/10 times it is air play. With that other 1 being 6 colossi.

The whole point of stargate play is to kill overlords and queens. Most players stop at 4 pheonix, to force hydra, then switch to colossi.

Post up some replays so we can really nitpick your build.

Also, what league are you?

[PiG]

Fun but if your opponent scouts he can charge with mass whatever b4 u get them out. At the latest an overseer should hit the base base by 10 mins so u'll have to really deny that and somehow make it not look sus. Could work quite.regularly simply because zerg make a lot of assumptions about toss tech routes but if it be becomes popular at all it won't last long cos every1 will recognise it! Oh and yeah is like if sum1 could actually test hydra vs carrier and try to identify where hydra win and where carriers win, interesting...

[Next_rim]

Whenever I see forge expand, I expect air play. Without a doubt. 9/10 times it is air play. With that other 1 being 6 colossi.

The whole point of stargate play is to kill overlords and queens. Most players stop at 4 pheonix, to force hydra, then switch to colossi.

Exactly, but you never expect heavy stargate dedication, do you? You either get rdy for colossi or mass colossi. You go roach-hydra-corruptor-broodlord-infestor, or ling-infestor-ultra, with heavy droning, early 3rd and all the good things zerg has for macro. You build spores and queens to fight potential voidrays, and you get couple spines just in case.

Also, what league are you?

Top 8 of my diamond divison.

Post up some replays so we can really nitpick your build.

Right now I have one replay on Backwater Gulch against a bad zerg. That game actually sparked the idea to try it out. Sure will do, when I get a zerg on Shakuras or Tal'darim.

Also, I would like experienced zergs to comment on when they usually scout. I know 1st OL drills in at 5:30-6 min, and I'm usually able to take it down. Then I get a wall poke at 8-min. Then I reveal my voidray, and zerg turtles at base, macroing like there is no tomorrow, and getting colossi counter. At 12 they move out for push, while grabbing 3rd. Between 8 and 12 there is 0 scouting of my main going on. Is it normal? Or my zerg opps are just bad?

I was thinking to include an illusioned immortal, to fake-push at 11:30 with illusions past a zerg-controlled xel'naga, then turn back. Kind of show my army to 100% deceive him.

[Xeen]

What happens if Z isn't terrible and just kills all your carriers with corruptors then makes broodlords, because he gauges your unit composition through pressure/drops.

Post replays against good players and fielding different strategies.

[Next_rim]

Ok, here are two replays.

Game 1 on Backwater - the one that inspired me to try this
Game 2 on Tal'darim - dedicated build. Zerg went muta tho^^, and I had to cancel carriers to get phoenix.

Both zergs were pretty bad. Uploading to show:

a) approximate timings
b) build order
c) In game on Tal'darim, check out hydra pwnage

Please share your opinions on viability of this timing.

[TCPLemminks]

With the illusioned immortal, zergs will still go for hydras, even producing more hydras I think.
I don't think zergs sacrifice an overload again after the first one. Decent zergs will use an overseer though, but you could use the phoenix to deter it, as along as it doesn't see the beacon.

Thing is if he goes spire he won't have enough hydras to kill the carriers, though corrupters just destory carriers to the extent that it's not even funny.

Without immortals your army might get absolutely destoryed by the roaches, Voidrays just don't kill them quickly enough.

[PiG]

Hate to say "your opponents are bad", but they definitely aren't too great. Any "top" zerg will react to a forge fe by taking an extremely fast 3rd, or hitting some sort of fast timing such as an econ bane bust.

They won't be able to be aggressive with anything but lings until hydras, at which point if they go drops you're in a pretty bad spot as your slow carriers cant b aggressive and defend your production at the same time. Even if this isn't the case most good zergs will react to these air expos with some sort of pressure or timing, often with mass hydraling, you might be able to hold it but it will force you to show your hand earlier then you'd like. If the zerg chooses to just play defensively and squeeze more drones then he should be morphing an overseer/upgrading overseer speed and scouting your base as soon as his lair finishes at say 9:00. Anyone that plays blind is making an error.

All this doesn't mean your build is invalid it just means its taking advantage of something alot of people are neglecting: playing the meta game. Ultimately not a 'solid' build but sounds fun and each time you get a win with carriers you gotta feel boss :P.

[Next_rim]

Thing is if he goes spire he won't have enough hydras to kill the carriers, though corrupters just destory carriers to the extent that it's not even funny.

I'm still blanked on zerg scouting. If this is scouted right away, zerg will be able to counter hard, no doubt. Just like any build in general. Scouting is key.

However, I'm inclined to make a claim that without very heavy corruptor support, hydra is hard-countered by carriers. The cool part is that carriers can actually take down corruptors too. I was able to kill 11 corruptors with 6 carriers, 1 carrier dead and one left in red. Assuming same 6 carriers cleared 44 supply of 1:1 hydra without a scratch 2 mins earlier, it seems like a book definition of cost efficiency here.

Yes, 6 colossi would rape 22 hydras too, no doubt. 6 colossi can't shoot air to clear corruptos though, you need to add stalkers for that and work on positioning and flanking. Now, assume stalker + carrier army instead of stalker + colossi. double the firepower against air, and almost same firepower againts hydra. Profit?

[Next_rim]

Ok, I played 13 games tonight, got 11 protoss and 2 zerg -.-

Here is my second bad zerg of the night. Enjoy. I'm off to bed, hopefully I'll get my clanmates to crack on this hardcore tomorrow. We have some good master zergs.

[Next_rim]

Here is another game. Zerg went first spire again. He got a scout in at 9 mins and saw double stargate. He opened with 4 muta and 3 corruptors. Basically, there were corruptors on the map even before I got carriers.

I could feel he was very confused on what to do. He first got some corruptors, but I pushed out and cleared it. I knew he probably had same, if not more, on the way already, so I didn't continue pressure. Guess that was a mistake.

It evolved into a macro game, with zerg having advantage. It was hard for him to attack, since my air was so strong.

Eventually, he found an ultimate combo to counter heavy air - handful of mutas and corruptors, and 15-ish roaches on the ground to do the dirty job killing structures and probes.

I realized I have no game plan after revealing carriers. Yet to think of the best way to push, and how to cover the ground while at it (run-by with speedlings was attempted here too).

Looking for suggestions on:
1) optimal 3rd-base timing
2) ground army comp. Stalkers are actually hard to get, because I'm so gas-starved.
3) Possible ways of transitioning out.

[Next_rim]

More replays to check out.

Game 1 - againts baneling bust. Although he took wall down, it was too late. Looks like a bad banelings bust to me.
Game 2 - book example of 12-min hydra push. I feel like I had all it takes to easily fight back, but didn't succeed. He did too much econ damage, and I crumbled some 10 mins later.
Game 3 - on Xel'Naga. I took a risk of FE, and was VERY surprised to see him hatch before pool. Good 20 min carrier-vs-hydra rampage. I feel stalkers were not very effective againts corruptors. I suspect was lack of upgrades and poor focusing on my part.

Based on this experience, I made some conclusions:
-MUST get 2-3 sentries early
-With a handful of micro, zerg can't break at 12 mins with hydra push.
-If zerg goes spire first, get phoenix and stalker, add carriers later. Actually, zerg play into 3 corruptor-4 muta seems to be the hard counter for any stargate-heavy play early on.
-Good time to push - 4 carriers with a ground zealot-stalker mix. Comes at ~14 mins, with zerg having 22-28 hydra with lings and 5-6 corruptors. Secure 3rd while at it. Zerg will usually have his 3rd up and 2/3 saturated by that time.
-2 bases can support non-stop 3 stargate and 4 gateway production.
-Get ground weapon upgrades to increase stalker efficiency.
-Squeeze in a robo after 14 min to get observer and start limiting creep highway.

Overall, my build now looks like this:

-Up to min 6 - standard forge-FE
-At 6 min, throw 2 stargates. Make 1 phoenix and 1 voidray, go put pressure and reveal stargate play. Add sentries from 1 warpgate as gas allows to.
-At 8 min, put down fleet beacon. Start saving chrono.
-At 12 min, start warpgate research
-At 13 min, add 3 more gateways.
-At 13 min, you have 4 carriers, 2-3 sentries, 2 cannons at front. Enough to repel a 12-min hydra push, imho.
-At 14 min, after 2 rounds of stalkers, push out with what you have (4 carriers and 12-16 gateway units). If zerg has a lot of hydra, shouldn't push. Just wait for more carriers and stalkers, grab 3rd. Zerg is turtling and hastefully making corruptors.


Yet to see how this build works againts:
-11-min Roachbust
-Drops or nydus play

Most zerg still drone heavy when they see forge-FE, grab 3rd, tech lair, get spire/hydra den and go 200/200 from there.

Good luck, and starving for comments or suggestions

[Eldrid]

Chargelots (lol hydras??) voids (lolololol corruptors?) carriers

Profit

[Next_rim]

Eldrid,

This build is very gas-intensive. Putting up TC and wasting 200 on charge grade hits hard on timings. Later in the game, sure. At min 12-15, I'm usually at 0 gas all the time (or in the process of saving 250 for upcoming carriers). That's when i build additional gateways and zealots to harass zerg distant expos and protect against ling run-by.

Also, voids are total waste against hydra, and lose to corruptors in small numbers. 2 carriers are better against both that 3 voids (almost same gas-wise). I considered switching to stupid amounts of voidrays after initial 4 carriers, but dismissed this idea. At min 16, zerg rebuilds 150+ supply of hydra and corruptors, which totally wastes voidrays.

I actually played a very good game on metalopolis recently againts zerg opening hydra-roach, then switching to roach-corruptor. I got early stalker wpn upgrades. In the end, we battled it out 200vs200, with me counting 8 carriers and rest stalkers, and he had roaches and some ridiculous amount of corruptors. I had 5 carriers (lvl 3 wpn) left in the end, and 0 ground army. I made a conclusion that stalker-carrier is very much potent against heavy corruptor army. I wish i could do cost efficiency estimates to compare to standard stalker-colossus-sentry against roach-corruptor.

To say the least, small amount of carriers rapes small amount of corruptors. Corruptor advantage escalates only with heavy numbers, when they can 1-shot a carrier. So trading ground armies while clearing corruptors ensures you full 2-3 minutes to wreck havoc on expos. If it was colossus left, I wouldn't be able to proceed to killing expansions that easily. After a major 200vs200 and some ground army left for toss, zerg just spawns speedlings on all larva and finishes all army. It's very hard to get rid of leftover carriers. Need at least 2 corruptors for each carrier at this level of upgrades.

I'll definitely post a replay later tonight.

[Eldrid]

Do you wanna play a game? im actually interested in this build

Edit: of course i wont just blind counter you without scouting.

[Next_rim]

I'll be happy too, if you have an EU account. I only have EU.

[Next_rim]

Ok, based yesterday's 3 games, seems like this build has a hard time dealing with simple roach play. My army comp is able to clear a roach ball, but it takes a while, and I lose my 3rd regardless.

Roach ball comes at 15 min, when I'm 1/3 saturated at 3rd, have 6 carriers and 12-16 stalkers (130-ish supply). He comes with ~140 supply of roaches and 6-7 corruptors (or 10-15 hydra). Zerg AA dies in seconds, but roaches 2-shot the nexus, and then a-move into natural. By the time they die, I have 0 stalkers left, no 3rd and lonely 6 carriers. Zerg then grabs 4th, gets 20+ corruptors and 10-15 roaches, and finishes me. I am unable to rebuild enough stalkers to clear corruptors. Even if I get immortals and clear ground army, I still lose all carriers to corruptors, and have minimal chance of defending against broodlords.

At 200vs200, I can kill any number of corruptors anyday. But how to preserve stalker count? Sacrifice 3rd? Or sit at 2-base till 200/200, then push with double expo?

Suggestions?

[Eldrid]

Attack him before he attacks you. By the time his 40 roaches reach your base his base is half dead.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Ok, based yesterday's 3 games, seems like this build has a hard time dealing with simple roach play. My army comp is able to clear a roach ball, but it takes a while, and I lose my 3rd regardless.

Roach ball comes at 15 min, when I'm 1/3 saturated at 3rd, have 6 carriers and 12-16 stalkers (130-ish supply). He comes with ~140 supply of roaches and 6-7 corruptors (or 10-15 hydra). Zerg AA dies in seconds, but roaches 2-shot the nexus, and then a-move into natural. By the time they die, I have 0 stalkers left, no 3rd and lonely 6 carriers. Zerg then grabs 4th, gets 20+ corruptors and 10-15 roaches, and finishes me. I am unable to rebuild enough stalkers to clear corruptors. Even if I get immortals and clear ground army, I still lose all carriers to corruptors, and have minimal chance of defending against broodlords.

At 200vs200, I can kill any number of corruptors anyday. But how to preserve stalker count? Sacrifice 3rd? Or sit at 2-base till 200/200, then push with double expo?

Suggestions?

Cannons and forcefields.

If you're truly dedicated to this sort of strat, I would recommend 5/6 gate pressure in the midgame to get you a stable unit count and punish the zerg, then switching over into 3star carriers off the third - or opening void/gateway to secure the third, then transitioning.

[Next_rim]

Attack him before he attacks you. By the time his 40 roaches reach your base his base is half dead.

What timing is best to hit the zerg then? Assume he goes fast 3rd (8-9 min).

Cannons and forcefields.

Seems an obvious choice. Anyone have examples of good sim sity layout on shattered temple and metalopolis?

I would recommend 5/6 gate pressure in the midgame

What's the timing on 6-gateway push?