[TAcawkballs]

i think Asians are imbalanced.

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by TAcawkballs

i think Asians are imbalanced.

I think that we should have a few drinks and make love on SUnday

Originally Posted by Benji

Yet had zero zergs on the podcast, clear and unbias opinion right there.

Every single pro zerg will admit or comment on zerg being the weakest race at the moment. Some are very vocal, others arent, but none are saying the race is fine. Its ONLY Protoss and Terrans saying so.

Time for you to get some lessons from Del. But then again he did say that you were a lost cause....

[Meatex]

I haven't confirmed but I did hear that Fruit Dealer has switched to Terran.
But saying just switch is a bit dumb. All zergs put a lot of time into practicing their race and those who stick with zerg usually find the mechanics more to their preferences. I for one find zerg the most fun while being the most frustrating but I don't want to switch just to win games easily. Where is the fun in massing death ball on 2 base then a-moving to win? :P

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Meatex

I haven't confirmed but I did hear that Fruit Dealer has switched to Terran.
But saying just switch is a bit dumb. All zergs put a lot of time into practicing their race and those who stick with zerg usually find the mechanics more to their preferences. I for one find zerg the most fun while being the most frustrating but I don't want to switch just to win games easily. Where is the fun in massing death ball on 2 base then a-moving to win? :P

Implying Zerg is anything but massing units and 1aing at opponents' timing pushes. Oh look, gold league generalizations.

Fruitdealer will be weak no matter what race he plays, I expect. Cool was hyped up in BW, then faded off because he doesn't practice hard - the same thing he's admitted about his mentality with SC2.

[ToRDjvillian]

Why did the collosus fall over? Because it was imbalanced XD

I honestly don't think any race is overpowered and it is all about how you react to you opponent. To many forcefields? Go massive units crush it.

I find Zerg to be the easiest race to play once use to it.

[TASponge]

TAEdgE is imba.

[Meatex]

Well tbh Fruit Dealer is kinda busy helping his sick mother so of course he won't have much time to practice.
Protoss and Terran always say that zerg can counter so on and so forth with advanced trickery and high APM techniques all the while sitting in their impregnable bases waiting till they have enough to kill all your army twice over.
The trick is you might have a better army but my army will kill all your buildings first

[BaKaiNu]

^ Does not apply to Terran.

[ZergGirl]

You got two people balancing this game. One plays protoss and the other randoms, be happy we have what we do.

p.s imba 'upgraded marines' and FF.

[Meatex]

Potthead has a point
Protoss is, after all, powered entirely by the tears from zerg players

[PiG]

Zerg isn't underpowered they just involve the most actions. They have such huge potential with their high mobility and ability to tech switch very suddenly. They are the hardest to play well in terms of mechanics, definitely much harder than protoss.

[nGenLight]

Every race has their own advantages and disadvantages. Most imbalance cries stems from players inability to deal with certain strategies/unit compositions, and they feel the resolve to blame it on game balance, rather than take the issue upon themselves. That said, having played all three races myself for a good time, Zerg is definitely the hardest mechanically and the most volatile to just... die.

What Pig said about potential can be also said about Terran, with them having the most efficient "small army" (1-2 Medivac with MM). Being such a harass heavy race, the potential for multitasking is unlimited. E.g with enough APM Terran can produce 10 different drops at 10 different locations at the same time preemptively. It is extremely difficult then to deal with that with an immobile Protoss army that is extremely weak/inefficient when the ball is split - Being mechanically easy has its own relative flaws, such as the inability to make use of all your APM etc. However, having watched someone like ST_Ace play Protoss, you can really see the difference between a 50apm Protoss which just continously adds to a ball and then die to multi-pronged attacks and a 300apm Protoss that just makes perfect decisions... T

The potential for all races is endless - Generally speaking, Zerg: Mechcanically, Terran: Multitasking, Protoss: Unit positioning/control. I think the recent patch and recent maps are definitely bringing balance closer together than it ever was, & I feel they are definitely on the right track. It is better to be positive than to keep calling out Blizzard for doing a crappy job, for a relatively new game I feel the balance level and the feedback taken has already been incredible. However that said, balance talks will always exist because of peoples tendency to blame failure on something not associated to themselves. If it frustrates you that much personally, just switch race, nobody wants to hear whining.

[cure]

I completely agree with Light. The races are pretty balanced now, but zerg does require a higher apm to play at the same level with other races.

[Hyperterminal]

I am a Zerg player and I wouldn't think of switching out to any other race however I do honestly think that Zerg is probably the weakest race of the 3 but not by a lot. I think it comes down to just a couple of things. Zerg really has nothing that compares to the Stalker and Marine in the early game. Both can attack air and ground units and both have an ability upgrade (Blink, Stim, Shields). Other major problem stems from map choice, small ramps are pretty much a killer for any race trying to get through but for Zerg more so. Protoss have major advantages here with Shields and god forbid if they get Psi Storm, they can control people coming in as well as break through with those tools. Terran have Bunkers and Siege Tanks not much needs to be mentioned by this. You can see GSL has tried addressing this with their latest map decisions with more maps having less choke points and more open spaces. I personally believe Protoss Sentries need to be looked at around balance because at the moment many of the major turning points of GSL, MLG and Dreamhack all stemmed from Sentries...

Not a crying session about how Zerg is underpowered because I don't believe we are in a horrible shape just some slight tweaks would even the playing field just a tad.

[nGenLight]

^ People who like to talk about imbalance generally focus on their own race's weakness and the other races' strengths. Instead of doing that maybe start to think about the weakness of your opponent's race, the strength of your race and how you can exploit that just as your opponent has used his race's strength to exploit your race's weakness.

I have so much fun killing Protoss as Terran because I know exactly what I don't want to deal with as Protoss against a Terran opponent.

I do agree that Zerg is probably the weakest of the three race currently, largely because the race itself is underdeveloped from a production standpoint which greatly limits the amount of strategies Zerg can employ against their Terran/Protoss counterparts. During the dark period of Zerg (GSL2 til now), Zergs had relatively no variation in their play, roach/hydra against Protoss, lingblingmuta against Terran, also having to deal with 832742398 different ways to die to an all-in. That said, I believe the current patch has addressed many of these inevitable problems such as map size, counters to the protoss death ball, and thus Zerg have really begun to develop. We are starting to see a a ton of variation to strategies that Zerg players can employ now, top tier Zerg players are no longer as predictable they were, really know how to use their mobility well and are invincible to all-ins. While we do not see Zerg producing results just yet on an international level, as they are playing catchup, I can see a definite rise in Zergs' prominence in the near future.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

^ People who like to talk about imbalance generally focus on their own race's weakness and the other races' strengths. Instead of doing that maybe start to think about the weakness of your opponent's race, the strength of your race and how you can exploit that just as your opponent has used his race's strength to exploit your race's weakness.

I have so much fun killing Protoss as Terran because I know exactly what I don't want to deal with as Protoss against a Terran opponent.

I do agree that Zerg is probably the weakest of the three race currently, largely because the race itself is underdeveloped from a production standpoint which greatly limits the amount of strategies Zerg can employ against their Terran/Protoss counterparts. During the dark period of Zerg (GSL2 til now), Zergs had relatively no variation in their play, roach/hydra against Protoss, lingblingmuta against Terran, also having to deal with 832742398 different ways to die to an all-in. That said, I believe the current patch has addressed many of these inevitable problems such as map size, counters to the protoss death ball, and thus Zerg have really begun to develop. We are starting to see a a ton of variation to strategies that Zerg players can employ now, top tier Zerg players are no longer as predictable they were, really know how to use their mobility well and are invincible to all-ins. While we do not see Zerg producing results just yet on an international level, as they are playing catchup, I can see a definite rise in Zergs' prominence in the near future.

Zerg are doing and have been trying alot of crazy openings to give them a chance in the earlygame so they can actually get ahead in the midgame. Burrowmove Roaches, Ling/Bane in ZvP, Ling Infestor Ultra in ZvT, Ling Bling Roach in ZvT and so forth and YET, all it takes a single Bo3 where you make a few small errors and you get knocked out by some allin.

If zerg plays perfect and actually gets a scout or read on his opponant, the zerg will most likely win, but players make mistakes and Zerg mistakes are in most situations much more devastating.

Not to mention everytime we adapt, Protoss or Terran figure out something even more abusive and difficult to deal with (ie: new gateway heavy armies). Blizzard needs to stop tweaking all the cutesy stuff like Infestors and HT's and start looking at the raw basics, the Marine and Warp Gate mechanics.

[toasti0]

The biggest thing you will notice with the three races is if you wanna play like a pro you just copy there build orders right? This is great if you wanna play pro prot you just 4 gate than a move, if you wanna play like prot terran tlo you just 6 rax or 1 rax 3 factory or whatever and a move. But if you wanna play like pro july zerg you have to ??? oh wait you can't just make exactly 4 gate or 3 rax and push out you have to use your brain and queue each unit as you need them. This makes it impossible to copy a pro zergs strategy because all there strategies are made up on the fly.

The other downside to zerg is it's really bad ability to counter T & P units e.g. mutas are great but get countered by marines the first unit T makes. Ultras are great but get countered by stimed marines, banes are great but get counted by tanks or stimed marines, broadlords are great but get countered by stimed marines or 1 viking, hydras and roaches are great but get counted by marauder marines tanks with stim just incase. Zerg units are many in numbers but paper thin (cept mass roach).

I played zerg for a long long time and in fact fruit dealers wins were the main reason i switched to zerg as a main. After a long long while I decided to play protoss after only playing prot a handful of times my win ratio went up 20% compared to my months and months of zerg practice simply by making death balls 4 gate etc.

Now i'm in the process of playing terran and considering switching to T as a main they are very good if you can drop and multi task but due to the nature of mech being so slow the protoss death ball is far better at mobility being that colossi don't need to seige up to do splash dmg with ff to help out.

Limiting yourself to one race reduces your enjoyment of the game e.g yey another 4 gate game woot. If you wanna be able to say your the best sc2 player you goto play random that's why imo tlo is pro sauce, and if you don't wanna play random and think your race is unbalanced switch you'll have more fun learning a new race strats rather than nerd raging over loses and imba.

[jason]

Originally Posted by toasti0

The biggest thing you will notice with the three races is if you wanna play like a pro you just copy there build orders right? This is great if you wanna play pro prot you just 4 gate than a move, if you wanna play like prot terran tlo you just 6 rax or 1 rax 3 factory or whatever and a move. But if you wanna play like pro july zerg you have to ??? oh wait you can't just make exactly 4 gate or 3 rax and push out you have to use your brain and queue each unit as you need them. This makes it impossible to copy a pro zergs strategy because all there strategies are made up on the fly.

The other downside to zerg is it's really bad ability to counter T & P units e.g. mutas are great but get countered by marines the first unit T makes. Ultras are great but get countered by stimed marines, banes are great but get counted by tanks or stimed marines, broadlords are great but get countered by stimed marines or 1 viking, hydras and roaches are great but get counted by marauder marines tanks with stim just incase. Zerg units are many in numbers but paper thin (cept mass roach).

I played zerg for a long long time and in fact fruit dealers wins were the main reason i switched to zerg as a main. After a long long while I decided to play protoss after only playing prot a handful of times my win ratio went up 20% compared to my months and months of zerg practice simply by making death balls 4 gate etc.

Now i'm in the process of playing terran and considering switching to T as a main they are very good if you can drop and multi task but due to the nature of mech being so slow the protoss death ball is far better at mobility being that colossi don't need to seige up to do splash dmg with ff to help out.

Limiting yourself to one race reduces your enjoyment of the game e.g yey another 4 gate game woot. If you wanna be able to say your the best sc2 player you goto play random that's why imo tlo is pro sauce, and if you don't wanna play random and think your race is unbalanced switch you'll have more fun learning a new race strats rather than nerd raging over loses and imba.

@ ur 1st paragraph
The thing is, you can't copy the micro of those pro players.

And u think all tlo does is 6 rax a move?

plz watch gsl season 1 tlo vs hyperdub.

Have u seen that genius defensive nuke?

Have u seen the genius comeback?

The calm play and brilliant decision making?

Yeah, you can copy their build, but not their micro.

You can copy july's 14 pool 14 hatch, but u can't copy his micro.

You can copy tlo's 6 rax, but u can't copy his marine split against bling.


@ ur 2nd paragraph.

Hold on, which one has more mobility? marines or mutas?

Mutas > go in and kill 5 scvs. Leave

Come back and kill more, leave

A few times of these gave u a total of 10 - 20 scvs kills.

You don't expect to win the game by mutaing all his scvs.

Also, if u go up to his main, then his marines go to their main, but u have more mobility, so u can move straight down to the natural, and his marines takes much more time to get their. EG on metalopolis.

Hold on, if u just a move ur army, ur gonna lose to tank marines marauders.

But if u actually do micro, EG flank him and run in zling to absorb dmage and kill tanks, banelings killing marines, then mutas clearing things up, then actually zerg is quite powerful.

Also, if u make broodlords, u DON't onlymake broodlords, save most of the corruptors and make 3-4 broodlords. 3-4 broodlords literally pwn if unhurt. And how do u make them unhurt? atk marines with them, and the tanks will kill the marines due to splash damage and friendly fire as they will auto target the broodlings. Then corruptors deal with vikings.


You can't just say a unit counters a unit. Cuz I can say marines get countered by roach. Marauders get countered by hydras. Tanks get countered by mutas and thors get countered by zlings, the cheapest and most basic unit in the game, counters one of the strongest mechanic unit of the terran arsenal.

Yeah, multitasking, easier said than done. Can u atk at 3 locations while making units and supply depots and microing ur drops at the same time? Exactly, easier said than done.

Toss is weak in early game, if u let them get a deathball, then it's YOUR FAULT for letting them do so. Put pressure and don't let them take their 3rd.

Exploit your race's mobility. Eg atk on the left and on the right. the terran mech has unsiege, and move to ONE point to deal with it, and they are slow as hell. Then all you have to do is RETREAT! and you would've killed the other undefended point.

[toasti0]

Play prot it has a built in map hack just make a robo with observers and follow around your opponant counting how many units he has so that you can make perfect counter and know when there attacking at all times.

[nGenLight]

*Yawn* at the poster above me, continue to cry about the strengths of other races' without considering how you can abuse their weaknesses.

Benji, you know how I feel about Zerg. Bottom line is I don't think Zerg are underpowered, they are just much more difficult to learn and play. Hence you see relatively little amounts of Zerg players at the lower levels. & the little amounts of players seem to struggle because they don't have the understanding/mechanics of say Edge or Pig which is really required to even the field between Protoss/Terran.