[Fenner]

You can learn the game with cheese well imo.

Bronze players can't even execute a 1 base build with good timings so practicing a 4gate untill you get to the point where you hit the same timings as a pro player is a good way to learn but you need to realize that once you are able to hit those timings there isn't much point in continueing to do it.

Frantics 4gate right now is probably horrible since he's still in Brzone and you can get to masters 4gating every match up.

I think that learning about scoutign and stuff at the lower isn't too useful as you will be learning timings that don't make any sense are becoming irrelevent once you progress. A 4 gate at Bronze may hit at 10 mins but if someone does it well it will hit at 8mins. If you get it in your head that the 4gate hits at that timing then all your reactions will be skewed an incorrect etc. Think its definitely worth just working on mechanics and not thinking about your build/reactions untill you get within a decent timing range of gm/masters playes, maybe 30 seconds?

But of course to practice your mechanics the best you need a plan/build which is why I think cheese is a great way to learn because you have a plan but you don't need to react to anything - can just purely work on your mechanics for executing the cheese to optimal timings... You can also slowly increase the difficulty of the cheese you execute to keep pushing your mechanics, do 1 base cheese, then 1.5 base cheese then 2 base cheese etc untill you're hitting optimal timings.

[Dox]

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

Bronze players can't even execute a 1 base build with good timings

FWIW I coached her with standard play and pretty much all of her games are 3-4 base macro games with 3-3-3 upgrades, Colossi, Storm, Motherships, all that good stuff.

I think the point she was trying to make though, is she's encountered a lot of people recently with the mentality that "cheese is unbeatable" and she's trying to refute that by showing that learning to play standard from day 1 can be just as effective as cheesing your way to X before learning how to play the game properly.

You also suggested that scouting is less important at the lower leagues because timings will differ as you improve... but I disagree, because building those good habits of scouting and learning how to identify what your opponent is going to throw at you based on his economic/infrastructure status is invaluable regardless of what league you're in.

I feel as though the mentality behind "strictly cheese" players is very short sighted. They care about winning here and now, rather than investing in long-term skills. A lot of players say, "I cheesed my way until Silver/Gold/whatever" and then they either: 1) learn how to play macro or 2) burn out because suddenly they don't win as much. They see that next league as their objective and are satisfied when they meet it. But ultimately they're striving and settling for mediocrity, whilst the objective should always be GM (aka "the best"), and every other league between here and there should be viewed only as a stepping stone.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

I agree with you that it's never too early to build good habits!