[Pocshi]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

Ok so you lost to a weird korean 4 gate, you managed to kill all the pylons before he got warp which was good. but then lost because you couldn't keep him out of your base.

so your warp gate finished at 6:20 and you have 2 gates and a sentry and you know he is being agressive so make sure you turn ur gates into warp gates (you forgot to do this for ages) and then warp in more sentries right away and make sure you keep forcefielding the bottom of the ramp and chronoboost your gateways. Once you get 6 or 7 sentries you can make other units since that number is enough to forcefield the ramp forever with a fair bit of overlap.
Then you could tech to collosus and then go and kill him.

(also make sure you are always mining gas with 3 in each, you forget to put probes in your 2nd gas for ages because your distracted a bit and when you do remember you only put 2 probes in, which may have delayed extra sentries.)

Yeah I wanted to get more sentries but then i thought if i got my sentries and he got up the ramp i wouldnt have the DPS to fight him. Also if they are already inside my base what should I do? should I try to keep warping in stalkers and try to outmicro them?

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Pocshi

Yeah I wanted to get more sentries but then i thought if i got my sentries and he got up the ramp i wouldnt have the DPS to fight him. Also if they are already inside my base what should I do? should I try to keep warping in stalkers and try to outmicro them?

once you get 5 sentries you can forcefield the ramp forever, and it won't matter that you don't have the dps to take him on. And if you warp in stalkers or zealots, you won't have the dps anyway since he will have more.

If he gets up your ramp and has a pylon that can warp into your base as well, you just lose unless you have 4gates of your own. You can try to pull probes and fight that way, but it usually won't work. So don't let him get up your ramp no matter what.

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

yep, except you want 7 or so sentries so you can overlap ff by a couple of seconds

[S2Glow]

hmm , in ohana i played , i try to drone drill but my drone seems not to listen to me.. any help?

http://drop.sc/234162

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

if you go hatch first, patrol a drone on the bottom of the ramp

[Oshiego]

http://drop.sc/235292
Race: Protoss
Going Against: Terran
League: Bronze

Would want someone kind enough to point out some mistakes and also I want to know what are the usual timing a Protoss should start attacking at ?

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

i'll check this on saturday if for some reason it isn't already done by then

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

http://drop.sc/235292
Race: Protoss
Going Against: Terran
League: Bronze

Would want someone kind enough to point out some mistakes and also I want to know what are the usual timing a Protoss should start attacking at ?

Okay, for this, I'm going to talk about mainly basics and some logic.
Against terran, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to open with a walloff, it'll only cause you harm. Since this is bronze league, anything can go down, and a walloff can completely mess you up (one base 3 raxes and whatnot.
The next thing is chronoboosting. You used your first few chronos, and then you stopped completely. Chrono boosting is something that needs to always needs to be worked on at a low level, then it becomes muscle memory, and you'll do it sub-consciously most of the time. These key fundamentals need to be worked on early, at your stages, so that at later stages, everything is refined. Especially using these chrono boosts on probes earlier rather than later will net a much larger income, and if you're constantly chrono boosting probes, your early game economy accelerates dramatically.

When you made your robotics facility, you didn't bother to make an observer first. You need information from the opponent desperately at this point, especially when you're playing in the dark as you were. The opponent had a bunker out the front of his natural, with no expansion there. This means he's pretty much allin if you expand and get a larger economy. You didn't know he had no expansion, and attacked into an army much larger than your unfavourably and just died. If you knew he had no expansion, you could just sit back on 2 bases, get a large economy, keep expanding at a faster rates, have a much larger bunch of units, and streamroll your opponent. There is absolutely no reason to expand, and then go balls to the wall on units and attack, while you're getting your expansion up, and prior to getting your expansion up, you want to be playing defensively, scouting the map with observers and knowing what your opponent is doing so you can react to it effectively. First thing you should make most of the time from your robotics is an observer, and send it straight to their base, and check what they're up to.

Based on your question about attack timings. Timings shouldn't be involved in any kind of bronze play to be honest, this is the stage where you work up economy management and making units. Attacking is the least of your worries. I know it's a lot funner to be aggressive and win games that way, but I myself feel terrible when I'm overly aggressive and just lose the game because of it. It's much safer to be the defender at this stage. If you just sit back and put all your concentration into those probes, pylons, gateways, and upgrades, your army is likely to be a lot better then your opponents if you scout correctly. Remember it's much better to be making a large amount of probes, and be floating a tonne of minerals, than having like 20 probes and having no money. You can practice spending your large sums of money, and having a tonne more units.

So some key things to improve on:

• Building probes
  Building pylons
  Chrono boosting
  Making units (spending money)
  Defending rather than attacking
  Scouting (Observers are amazing! Make lots of them!)

Anyway, I hope this helps

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

ty!

[Oshiego]

Originally Posted by Malice

Okay, for this, I'm going to talk about mainly basics and some logic.
Against terran, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to open with a walloff, it'll only cause you harm. Since this is bronze league, anything can go down, and a walloff can completely mess you up (one base 3 raxes and whatnot.
The next thing is chronoboosting. You used your first few chronos, and then you stopped completely. Chrono boosting is something that needs to always needs to be worked on at a low level, then it becomes muscle memory, and you'll do it sub-consciously most of the time. These key fundamentals need to be worked on early, at your stages, so that at later stages, everything is refined. Especially using these chrono boosts on probes earlier rather than later will net a much larger income, and if you're constantly chrono boosting probes, your early game economy accelerates dramatically.

When you made your robotics facility, you didn't bother to make an observer first. You need information from the opponent desperately at this point, especially when you're playing in the dark as you were. The opponent had a bunker out the front of his natural, with no expansion there. This means he's pretty much allin if you expand and get a larger economy. You didn't know he had no expansion, and attacked into an army much larger than your unfavourably and just died. If you knew he had no expansion, you could just sit back on 2 bases, get a large economy, keep expanding at a faster rates, have a much larger bunch of units, and streamroll your opponent. There is absolutely no reason to expand, and then go balls to the wall on units and attack, while you're getting your expansion up, and prior to getting your expansion up, you want to be playing defensively, scouting the map with observers and knowing what your opponent is doing so you can react to it effectively. First thing you should make most of the time from your robotics is an observer, and send it straight to their base, and check what they're up to.

Based on your question about attack timings. Timings shouldn't be involved in any kind of bronze play to be honest, this is the stage where you work up economy management and making units. Attacking is the least of your worries. I know it's a lot funner to be aggressive and win games that way, but I myself feel terrible when I'm overly aggressive and just lose the game because of it. It's much safer to be the defender at this stage. If you just sit back and put all your concentration into those probes, pylons, gateways, and upgrades, your army is likely to be a lot better then your opponents if you scout correctly. Remember it's much better to be making a large amount of probes, and be floating a tonne of minerals, than having like 20 probes and having no money. You can practice spending your large sums of money, and having a tonne more units.

So some key things to improve on:

• Building probes
  Building pylons
  Chrono boosting
  Making units (spending money)
  Defending rather than attacking
  Scouting (Observers are amazing! Make lots of them!)

Anyway, I hope this helps

That is a big one. Thanks a lot for pointing out man. Really appreciate that and yes I will work on constantly producing probes , using the chrono boost.
Thanks a lot man.

[Oshiego]

Just another replay here if you could help out. Against a terran again. I think I'm doing constant probes here and using my chrono boost.
http://drop.sc/235484


http://drop.sc/235725
Here another one. I feel that I'm improving in probes production and chronoboosting. Not sure if I really am .

Quick Comments

Malice:

I'll do it when I get home tonight ^^

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

Just another replay here if you could help out. Against a terran again. I think I'm doing constant probes here and using my chrono boost.
http://drop.sc/235484


http://drop.sc/235725
Here another one. I feel that I'm improving in probes production and chronoboosting. Not sure if I really am .

Alright, in the first game, it seems your fundamentals are getting a lot better. The reason you lost is because you didn't protect your economy well enough. Lategame, your economy is what is going to pull you through. If you're both trading armies, and he's 2-3 base saturation and you've lost 40 workers and you're down to pretty much no economy, you're going to run out of money. Nuff said. The main way for a terran to attack at an economy is through drops. Believe it or not, as toss lategame, these drops can be EXTREMELY easy to hold and stop, all it costs is a templar or two, lots of gateways, and a cannon or two at each base. If you're alert, as the dropship comes towards to expansion, you can feedback it. If the units get out, and you don't react in time, the cannon, warpins, and a storm can clean up 1-2 dropships of units extremely easily. I overbuild gateways in the lategame, when I get to about 4 bases, I'm on around 20-25 gateways. What I want to do is stay 190ish/200, and get a large bank going, while maxing upgrades, protecting my economy, and harassing his economy. No reason to engage unfavourably.
You were way ahead of his supply/army, but didn't attack, that's alright, you macro'd better in the midgame, and your army would have obliterated his in a fight, but when he maxed, and attacked your economy then traded, he could remax, you couldn't.
Anyways, back to the start of the game. Don't forge fast expand against terran for one. Learn a solid 1 gate expand build, or a 3 gate expand build to be safe. Forge expands have lots of major problems, especially when you're using buildings to wall off, they just work against you if the terran allins or attacks at your natural. Marauders can snipe those building without cannons being able to hit them, and marauders absolutely wreck cannons. 1 gate expands if done properly are extremely safe expands, and you should be able to hold allins with effective scouting.

So key things to remember:

• Protecting economy is what makes the lategame
• Keep chrono'ing them probes
• Learn a one gate expand build
• Forge expanding is extremely hard to pull off in tvp, especially at a lower level
• Lots of gateways mid-lategame
• You want to be trading armies when your economy is better than theirs

Alright, now with this second game. You're getting better, but I'd rather watch games where you lose. It's way easier to analyse what you did wrong to improve things if you lose the game. One thing I noticed is that when you attacked into the natural the second time, you even saw his army with your observer. If you're not sure if you should attack into something, then don't. You got greedy. After you killed his expansion, you have two choices, one, which is take your economy lead and get further ahead. Or set up a good timing push with higher tech such as colossus for when his nexus comes back up. I'd say the economy route is a lot more favourable most of the time to be honest. Attacks like those are what puts you behind when you're already ahead.

Hope this helped once again! ^^

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Another iGM Helper, great ! Many thanks !

[Oshiego]

Alright that helped me alot. Right now I'm having some problems with the cannons / templar. I'm those kind that any armies that I produce or so must be in the mix of the army I'm gonna attack with. I can't seem to negotiate with myself to leave a templar back in the to defend it. But yeah I will try to do it and make it a habit. I have like 2-3 loses latest one. I'll post them up soon.

Also I've added you up on Skype.

http://drop.sc/235759
PvT

[Malice]

http://drop.sc/237444

PvT. I feel as if I had the game, and then suddenly I had a bad engage with not so many good units and just lost. But there may be more to it. Any ideas?

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Malice

http://drop.sc/237444

the main thing that I see is that your production is way too low, it takes you wayyy too long to remax after an engagement, I would recommend a 2nd robo and you probably had enough gateways but it takes you ages to turn them into warp gates. (there were even 4 gates which u never even used all game). Also after an engagement and you are trying to get your supply back up, dump all your chrono on your robos and all your warpgates.

The next thing is your composition, because you are going for archons and not storm (i think not using storm is a mistake, but it is a personal preference) your only source of splash damage comes from your collosus (yes archons have 'splash' too but it's not very large radius, also in that last engagement your archons fired an average of 2 shots each, not the most cost efficient) and because you only have one robo you just do not have enough collosi to kill the terran's army. you also had too many stalkers which you blinked forward, which was bad because they are relatively weak units so it's better to use defensive blink backs. also you caused your zealots and archons to spaz out trying to get to the front.

Also your engagement to the right of your gold base near the end was quite bad. He had a massive concave, you had a bunch of zealots just sitting nearby doing nothing. and just didn't have enough splash damage. maybe a guardian shield or two would have been helpful, i dunno. I think you also had too many probes. maybe if you had a few less zealots attacking his 4th and put them instead into that engagement it would have been even better.

i dunno

that concludes my incoherent ramblings.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

http://drop.sc/235759

Make sure that you constantly build probes, and don't stop until you have like 3 bases of full saturation
Make sure that you constantly tap your control groups so that you can constantly check that you are making probes

[Oshiego]

Would like to have some pointers out on why I lost this game. First 1-2 engagments, I won him. Maybe I was scared to all in after the first engagement, which allowed him to reinforce his army more ?

http://drop.sc/239293

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

Would like to have some pointers out on why I lost this game. First 1-2 engagments, I won him. Maybe I was scared to all in after the first engagement, which allowed him to reinforce his army more ?

http://drop.sc/239293

Even though you were beating him in almost every engagement, he still won because you never attacked him back. So in the end, he had all six bases on his side of the map, while you were forced to stay on three. So he had pretty much twice as much money as you.




If you can kill an entire army, and you still have a big army (3 colossus, 2 immortals, decent amount of gateway units) you should just counterattack. Almost 100% of the time he won't be able to remake his army in time.


So you were doing alright, but his counter attack plays got him back into the game since it forced you to defend.



If you walled off as shown, that would have delayed the roaches by about 15 seconds. Then if you kept a sentry there, that would have delayed the roaches by another 15 seconds. 30 seconds would be enough for your army to return and force him back, or even kill all of the roaches if he isn't paying attention.

And that's the main reason you lost the game I think. Maybe if you build a couple of observers and put them outside your base you can spot his army movement earlier, and respond earlier as well.


Also I suggest you learn how to forge fast expand more efficiently. This is important. Your opening put your economy very behind your opponent's.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...%28vs._Zerg%29

[Oshiego]

Alright got it. Thanks a lot. I guessed that roach attack to my expo was to delay me and to forced me back to def while he reinforce. Will keep in mind to wall off properly.

Thanks once again.

[Shieldz]

wow delete so nice

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

;)

[Oshiego]

http://drop.sc/239947

need some pointouts for this replay. I'm sure that I could win that game. Just mistakes I saw for myself is yeah he had 2 more bases then me and I need to make use of my obs wisely. But I think that attack where I took down his natural, I overextend myself, should have take down his 3rd then back off ?\
Or?

Thanks

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

http://drop.sc/239947

need some pointouts for this replay. I'm sure that I could win that game. Just mistakes I saw for myself is yeah he had 2 more bases then me and I need to make use of my obs wisely. But I think that attack where I took down his natural, I overextend myself, should have take down his 3rd then back off ?\
Or?

Thanks

even more important than using the obs wisely is to get it earlier, or find some other way of scouting. He took 4 bases on his side of the map at 10:30, and had absolutely no defense at his third or fourth. If you just sent a few units to each of those bases, that would be almost half of his economy gone. So for a long time, his income was about 2700 minerals/minute (sometimes spiking to 3k when he muled), while yours was 1250. He had more than double your mineral income.

Watch your probe saturation. You want 16-18 probes on each base for the best saturation, any more probes don't really help that much. You can count by boxing all of the probes. You had 26 probes in your main, 13 probes in your natural.

So you lost because he had 4 bases of income a long time before you had three, and he just had too much production.

Make sure you always research zealot charge. Unless you are learning some blink focused build, you should get charge before blink no matter what.

And when you storm make sure you don't chase his army into it. Some of your storms were damaging your army more than his.

[Oshiego]

Alright got it. So always get charge before blink ? For both PvT / PvZ ? My weakness is now using obs wisely and checking bases. Rarely do that.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

http://drop.sc/239947

need some pointouts for this replay. I'm sure that I could win that game. Just mistakes I saw for myself is yeah he had 2 more bases then me and I need to make use of my obs wisely. But I think that attack where I took down his natural, I overextend myself, should have take down his 3rd then back off ?\
Or?

Thanks

5 replays in a month is way too much, especially in bronze. Don't abuse helpers time please.

Apply carefully the advice given to you for at least a week and 10-15 games before submitting another one. That's the time needed for you to apply them correctly and learn from them.