[DUCKVILLELOL]

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

sigh its not safe to expand at all if you're doing a phoenix mirror. You have exactly the same tech paths and unit count, where is your advantage coming from? The only advantage you have is phoenix rally time, that's not enough to justify 4 additional zealots within your opponent's army. If you want to try phoenix mirror against me that's fine, I will show you why you can't expand unless behind a forge. The timing will hit as your nexus finishes and you will be down 400 minerals worth of units, lose the fight and ultimately the game. Or else you can sit on your ramp and lose 400 minerals as he kills your nexus for free and takes his own expansion.

edit:

I've had so much discussion time with NA grandmaster phoenix users on this subject, it's not even debatable, nobody in high level play will take an expansion in a Stargate mirror unless you have either A) Gained some ground in the early game, or, B) Gotten a forge and cannons up before his push hits.

"Where is your advantage coming from" - where is the disadvantage? If you have the same units... there is no disadvantage, it's fine to take the expo. I'll agree, yes certainly if you see that your opponent doesn't take theirs straight away too you'll obviously need to get some more expenditure going in your units instead of continuing to make probes (and yes, you'll likely need to make a small investment of 450 in forge/2 cannons) but this in no way is something that'll cause you to "ultimately" lose the game. If you are properly using your Phoenix and being active with them, you really shouldn't be blind-sided by someone who just attempts to 1 base bust. If it means losing 1 nix to scout what's coming, so be it. Better 1 nix dead than a game lost.

I know it sounds stupid but so many people even at a high level really don't understand how to play this particular style. You take the expo fast, put down a couple of cannons, and you'll be fine. On a map like Ohana sure you'll have a little more to contend with because of the second opening, but in the end it's not a big deal. Have a look at some of the replays in the link I posted before to see what I'm talking about.

As shieldz has pointed out though to directly answer the OP - you just need to stay ahead in nix count and you'll be fine.

[SLCNPezz]

Originally Posted by DUCKVILLELOL

"Where is your advantage coming from" - where is the disadvantage? If you have the same units... there is no disadvantage, it's fine to take the expo. I'll agree, yes certainly if you see that your opponent doesn't take theirs straight away too you'll obviously need to get some more expenditure going in your units instead of continuing to make probes (and yes, you'll likely need to make a small investment of 450 in forge/2 cannons) but this in no way is something that'll cause you to "ultimately" lose the game. If you are properly using your Phoenix and being active with them, you really shouldn't be blind-sided by someone who just attempts to 1 base bust. If it means losing 1 nix to scout what's coming, so be it. Better 1 nix dead than a game lost.

I know it sounds stupid but so many people even at a high level really don't understand how to play this particular style. You take the expo fast, put down a couple of cannons, and you'll be fine. On a map like Ohana sure you'll have a little more to contend with because of the second opening, but in the end it's not a big deal. Have a look at some of the replays in the link I posted before to see what I'm talking about.

As shieldz has pointed out though to directly answer the OP - you just need to stay ahead in nix count and you'll be fine.

I already stated that you CAN expand behind cannons in my first post - but this is a bit risky because if he hits while the cannons are building rather than after they finish you auto-lose. Also losing 1 phoenix in a phoenix mirror is really really really REALLY bad, I can't explain to you how bad it is, you've basically already lost (im talking when the phoenix count is around 5 and it's still 1 base game).

Also you do have a disadvantage... you put 400 minerals into something that won't help defend at all.

Also this blind-sided thing you're saying doesn't make sense, it doesn't matter whether you know he's 1 basing or not, you will lose to him every time if you put that nexus down. You have less units period, you can't hold it. The reason why you CAN expand in robo mirrors etc is because of the defenders advantage with SENTRIES, who work wonders against ground, and you can't get collosus out quick enough to punish a robo expand on one base. You can expand in blink obs mirrors because of the immortal rally time playing a crucial part in the battles, same with robo. With stargate this is completely different, you just can't expand, the rally time is negligible and forcefields don't do enough (plus u can't afford them due to gas constraints). I really want you guys to learn how stargate pvp works properly and it pains me to see people arguing because in this situation i just know im right, I've played stargate extensively in pvp and am quite good at the matchup.

You can play me whenever you want in customs, try expanding without a forge or even with a forge if you prefer, I'll kill you every time while the cannons are constructing or if u just didnt build cannons either way. It's not possible to expand in this situation unless you get an early advantage, either u tech to dts and kill probes or you kill some phoenix and decide you would rather expand than counter him etc.

Quick Comments

	Stallion:	this is pretty much why i don't play phenox styles
	DUCKVILLELOL:	Agree to disagree then I guess! :D