[syfChadMann]

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	just... why would you even post that? :/
	Dox:	ERASMUS RACIST ERACISTMUS
	neKo:	mmmmmmmhmmmmm
	ToRSpartaz:	....

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by Dox

Uhhh? I asked for FTP access to implement it and you said no.

I was talking about the development of the replays functionality. Was ignored for months and that was the reason veteris and myself started working on it.

Originally Posted by Dox

I'm really struggling to wrap my head around the logic here. We've already spoken about this but you still seem to be under the impression that I'd be modifying production files rather than working in test environment.

If you are working in a test environment why exactly are you so after the site's FTP details? You can just set the theme up on your own FTP, like what I suggested to you.

Originally Posted by Dox

What the hell? I linked you and like 5 other people to the files.

I never saw anything, just went through our skype history, do not see anything.

Originally Posted by Dox

your "solution" of copy/pasting blocks of code to me on skype so that i could edit them and send them back to you for implementation is less than ideal.

The main gripe i have is you trying to spin it like I'm some guy actively trying to hinder the site's advancement when that couldn't be further from the truth. I guess thats why people are being "so damn defensive" - its because you try to spin them in some untrue negative light. The unstable incident comes to mind where you insinuated he could not be bothered to check for clashes.

Demanding full admin permissions on the site to edit the "sticky tournament" area, and then trying to paint me as someone whos hindering growth because I declined. Its not even about you, the site has being doing fine without *anyone* having full admin permissions simply because people do not require full admin permissions to help out. The copy/pasting alternative which i was suggested can be as simple as updating a forum post in the staff fourms and I'll update it when i see it I don't get why you're making it out to be such a complex arduous task. Writers do something similar when they wait for crazerk to proof read and move their posts to news and so do other tournament organizers who do not have news posting permissions yet.

You also need to comprehend this is because of the sites limitation and not me going out of my way to make things difficult for you. If the site separated permissions better, i would give you and all the other mods sticky tourneys editing permissions, like how I was happy to give all mods and many others streaming / replay DB management permissions etc without them even having to ask.

Originally Posted by Dox

it's about having to jump through ridiculous hoops to implement enhancements.

They aren't ridiculous at all, setting up test servers and working with limited permissions are industry standard, especially on existing sites. As i said before, the volunteer coders who have helped on the site have never once requested for the access you demanded to implement stuff, and neither have other the paid coders I hired.

[Peleus]

Easy, both of you take it to PM's, there isn't really a reason to discuss it in here and doesn't really have much to do with the thread.

Ironic that the Benji thread still ends in argument even without Benji - lol, perhaps it never was his fault.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	we did talk it over pms 2 days ago, he wasn't happy still so he brought it out here
	Dox:	i brought it out? lol

[BaKaiNu]

@nirvAnA & Dox: Stop deviating this thread, keep it on track as Benji's vlog, not a thread that you both can argue about site power priveledges/coding etc. I suggest moving the argument to site improvement thread, or create a new thread. Otherwise, PM between each other is a very good start.

Quick Comments

	crAzerk:	no PM pls, how would we get to read such drama then. site imprvmt gogo
	nirvAnA:	yea excatly what baka said! No need to go out of topic and attack people and expect them not to defend themselves
	inFeZa:	BAN THEM BOTH
	Dox:	my post was on topic, nirvana did the derailing champ
	JoFritzMD:	BRING OUT THE BANHAMMER!

[NvRossi]

spin doctors!

ontopic: listened to the vblog while laddering.

My view on single elim is that it should only be used for more showmatchy one-off tournaments such as the recent Asus pro-am. For Important qualifiers, bigger tournaments i still prefer double elim. i find the finals just as enjoyable no matter what tbh. I Found my recent series with mafia where he came back through lb and bet me 1-2 1-2 in the tokyo qualifier 2 pretty exciting even though i was on the losing end of it haha. Theres room for both.

also enjoyed listening to yourself in this medium

[Dox]

All I did was reply to Stallion (on topic) yo, I didn't ask anyone to come out swinging. Sorry for derailing the thread with one of the subjects that came up in Benji's video. I'll stop posting in the thread now.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

it wasn't just "a reply" you were deliberately cutting the facts out & spinning me in negative light

[Sephyre]

[NvRossi]

you are very bad at interpreting personal attacks nirvana... you need some thicker skin my man

Quick Comments

	Dox:	STOP IT WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ROSSI
	nirvAnA:	Idk, other people felt that way after reading dox's post as well. Anyway lets move on!

[TN.Fitz]

Being a foreigner hat supports SEA I'm not happy that it is not doing well. I've never found a exact reason to go full time into SC2 because of my BW casting. But this is different. I'll see using my 12 hour different schedule if I can do something a bit more related to this scene.

[Unstable]

I've been meaning to make time recently to do a vlog of my own explaining what I've learned in the terms of esports events and business since I have been in the shadows for a while. But after listening to Benji's I figured it ties in well. I originally was going to be a forum post response but it ended up being like 5 pages long, So I figured i would return in kind with a vlog of my own giving feedback on his points and a few other areas as well as explaining the best possible ways for SEA to put itself back on the map.

After reviewing it, I do sound a bit "well i did this" "and this" which sounds upmyself, but keep in mind this is my personal experience and how I learned things to create what is a profitable e sports business. I was also just winging this one, if I find a few hours sometimes soon I will do a more structured and concise version with more topics.

You Tube

You Tube

note - near the end i referenced dox/nirvana argument in this thread, was purely an example of bickering that is unhelpful not a reference to me/dox from a couple of weeks ago
The text of this can be found in spoiler if you dont want to listen to vlog.

+ [Text] +

Where I started
Where have I been
Why have I been gone from SEA


Starcraft in Australia.

Starcraft is NOT a career for players even in other countries it is mainly still a hobby, most Korean pro gamers that have quit school and gone purely programing and retired are literally screwed for a living unless they made enough and have other revenue options it is not a career, yes you can give examples of boxer and nada but that’s a handful of the hundreds of thousands of players. For example FXOpen players MUST continue school if they are in the house and we make accommodations for them to have time to pass their grades. Completely going into progaming (unless you have a year off in your teens to do whatever you want and then go back to work/uni whatever) Is an extremely risky move and will not payoff for 99.9999999% of people. Add in the fact that cost of living in Australia is much higher than pretty much anywhere else in the world it is not a good combination. You don’t need to practice 12 hours a day to compete at the highest level but you do need to put A LOT of effort in. You won’t be winning GSL with only 3-4 hours of practice a night + whatever you do on weekends but you will place high in tournaments on a global scale.

Money and Teams:
The trend that you see from team’s picking up new players for the “money” as you say is always going to be a factor however lots of progamers recently have been taking pay cuts because the investment for a salary of a certain figure usually isn’t worth it to the investors (you will be surprised at the average wage for foreign progamers and how low it really is). When a sponsor gives you money for your team, they expect that the money they give to you will create enough exposure to make them MORE than that figure in sales( you ended up talking about this after I wrote here but I’m lazy and don’t want to redo this entire section). This is how the sponsorship model works, there are very few organizations that are ok with running at a loss and working with them is absolutely fine, but don’t expect a pay rise ever if you’re in one of those organizations.

Holding a player to their contract:
You said along the lines of “you should never stop a player from leaving a contract” While as a general idea is correct and applies in 95% of cases, you can’t say never. Because contracts are there to protect both the team’s investment and the players right’s It’s like investing 50k in an apartment or something expecting a return from renters over the next year and then no one rent’s it or the house gets destroyed. (the best analogy I could kind of think of so bear with me)
Also a note that I seem to run into over and over again in esports. If you are told details of a contract but never sign it (don’t do it on purpose/forget doesn’t matter) and then actually benefit from the pro’s in the contract for example a flight to an international tournament. You ARE legally bound to that contract, if you want out saying “I didn’t sign anything” you have to pay back the amount of money that was spent on you or you are still bound to it.
Talking about sponsors:
This is pretty much 99% correct so nothing to really ad to this other than.

Viewer focused events:
You mentioned the differences between your way of keeping viewers and dox’s saying there is no right or wrong just opinions, and sorry but there is a right and wrong it’s the one who has the higher viewers the one that gets your more viewers is the more correct way of doing things. Take for example how the FXOpen event changed since it started (the abomination of the open event) then the live events, into replays and more games double elim into what our next one is. Also went from open to invite only to mix of the two with qualifiers etc, each time we have learned what works and what doesn’t and our reach has consistently grown.
Production quality:
Upping production quality for events and streamers is fine, however I ask you, have you made enough money from advertisements/sponsors? Did the extra work you put in give you extra viewers? How many more viewers did your green screen give you compared to your events before that.
That is something you have to take into consideration because that is what companies give a shit about. Is that tricaster that costs tens of thousands of dollars going to pay itself off? Is the X hours you spent doing up all those overlays for things bring in enough viewers to justify those X hours when you could be practicing more replays or actually sleeping.
In your manpower segment you say you can’t do it all, msg me on skype and I can show you some tricks and tips because believe it or not all the FXOpen events are still run by only me with 1 computer in the exact same way 1 screen sc2 1 screen xsplit, you can use things like hotkeys for xsplit etc that make it manageable.
SEA Scene:
I’ll just touch on the few points you made
Stagnating stream numbers –
What I have learned over the last year here is what brings you viewers in order of most relevant to least.
1) Be on TL obviously
2) The players
3) The prize pool
4) The format
5) Casters

So continuing on from this point this is because there is no pushing for viewers outside of SEA you need to get on TL get onto the other teams have events where you have both US/EU/KR players and SEA players so they can compete/perform so people start taking notice of it. Right now people are alike “who is that SEA guy”
I’ll give you an example of one of our players FXOTear, He is ******* good, he went 34-2 in the last in house ranking matches but no one knows who the **** he is because he hasn’t won anything or placed well in broadcasted matches(he did ok in GSTL winning 2 matches but then got cocky as **** in G3 which I tore him a new one about but still), compare that to someone like the guy who just won WCS EU and most people know who he is now. Or symbol before this GSTL who the **** is symbol? And now….
Dream hack/MLG getting more viewers – These are global events you can’t really compare them to local things. They have the ability because they grew over years and years and years.
Timezone issue – While this does make sense a lot of the time, there ARE viewers around at that time of night for example our last FIS which got 8-10k viewers per day was in SEA primetime! There is also Saturday/Sunday where you can have events that start at midday or 10am nothing is certain.

More people helping out In the scene:
You mentioned that there are only a few people helping out there and they need more help but I’m going to state something very controversial now and that is the only scene that I’ve seen this happen in is SEA and it is ******* tall poppy syndrome. I have encountered it god knows how many times, even to the point of my words being twisted and spread around to the point they get back to me and I go “what in the actual ****”
HAHA. Case in point the dox/nirvana spat in the comments, a week or so ago dox and I had an incident which can be avoided by language and communication. I am not singling dox out in this as its not just him nirvana/deth and myself in the past have been guilty of this, but it has to stop

Quick Comments

	Baldie:	Have my babies
	ETL.ViTaL:	.... another 30 mins :P
	x5_dot:	Thank you for that. Was incredible informative and insightful :)

[TABiggun]

With the whole double elim thing, why can't there just be double elimination and then the finals be a best of 5 or best of 7 instead of 2 best of 3s. This way there would still be a lot of games to determine who's the better player and the player from the loser's bracket would not be at a severe disadvantage.

Some might say "if you stay in the winner bracket you should have an advantage because you never lost" but if someone has fought hard through the lower bracket and played a ton of games and beaten a ton of good players to make their way into the finals then the least they can get now is a fair match instead of having to win 2 best of 3s.

A best of 5 or 7 would be much better for the fans because it would be more exciting and also much better for the player coming from the lower bracket. The only thing the 2 best of 3s rules is better for is the player coming from the winner bracket, noone else.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

I like the way your brain works

[PiG]

Originally Posted by TABiggun

With the whole double elim thing, why can't there just be double elimination and then the finals be a best of 5 or best of 7 instead of 2 best of 3s. This way there would still be a lot of games to determine who's the better player and the player from the loser's bracket would not be at a severe disadvantage.

Some might say "if you stay in the winner bracket you should have an advantage because you never lost" but if someone has fought hard through the lower bracket and played a ton of games and beaten a ton of good players to make their way into the finals then the least they can get now is a fair match instead of having to win 2 best of 3s.

A best of 5 or 7 would be much better for the fans because it would be more exciting and also much better for the player coming from the lower bracket. The only thing the 2 best of 3s rules is better for is the player coming from the winner bracket, noone else.

Being tired is an unmeasurable factor that applies more to some people than others.

Losing a set is losing a set.

If I beat mafia or light 2-0 in the upper finals and then have to beat them from scratch in a bo5 or bo7 in the grand finals I would be pretty mad because I know either of those two is hardly affected by tiredness. This system is completely unjustifiable because losing a set and then getting a second chance is not counteracted by the potential for tiredness to possibly affect someone's play.

I can see how it would balance out somewhat but the fact is it would vary hugely from player to player and overall would just be unfair to the player who gets eliminated after losing 1 set in the finals. Meanwhile the winner also lost 1 set but he got a second chance and then "cancelled out" his earlier loss by playing more games and hence being "tired".

Summary: i don't like that suggestion.

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by PiG

Being tired is an unmeasurable factor that applies more to some people than others.

Losing a set is losing a set.

If I beat mafia or light 2-0 in the upper finals and then have to beat them from scratch in a bo5 or bo7 in the grand finals I would be pretty mad because I know either of those two is hardly affected by tiredness. This system is completely unjustifiable because losing a set and then getting a second chance is not counteracted by the potential for tiredness to possibly affect someone's play.

I can see how it would balance out somewhat but the fact is it would vary hugely from player to player and overall would just be unfair to the player who gets eliminated after losing 1 set in the finals. Meanwhile the winner also lost 1 set but he got a second chance and then "cancelled out" his earlier loss by playing more games and hence being "tired".

Summary: i don't like that suggestion.

Firstly, I just want to add that I think groups into single elim is probs the best format. Anyway, in response to your post:

Once you have beaten someone in a bo3 earlier in the tournament I can understand why you would want to have an advantage over them --> because you already beat them.

So, why not resume from the previous score and play out a best of 7 instead of doing two bo3s?
eg. Pig beats mafia 2 - 1, and they later meet in the finals. Now the score is still 2 - 1 but they play a bo7 (first to 4 with pig up 2 - 1).

Even though its similar to two bo3s, I just think it makes more sense than just two bo3s if the winners bracket player loses. The winners bracket player still has the advantage from the previous games they played but the advantage is not as big as 2 bo3s (i think). I'm not sure but two bo3s might be the same as bo7 extended series but my brain hurts right now so i just dont want to think about it anymore.

Anyway, I think this is a good beginning of a discussion because tournament format is important.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	STOP DERAILING THE THREAD trolololooll
	Zealo:	you have to be trolling

[Peleus]

The whole single elim vs double elim etc comes down to a balance between spectators and players.

The more games you play (BO1 vs BO3 vs BO5) reduces the variance so it's more likely that the more skilled player will progress. Double elimination vs Single elimination is another example of reducing variance through giving better players a comeback opportunity through the lower bracket.

This (almost) goes directly opposed to the excitement factor, where each game is more critical and important hence, more exciting for the viewer. Greater variance means even a lower skill player can win the tournament given a lucky run through the brackets and a few cheeses.

In other words
More games = Less variance = Better for skilled players
Less games = More variance = Better for spectators

So while I agree with Pig that it's unfair to forgive a loss earlier in the brackets, it probably would make the finals more exciting. As a skilled player, Pig should never want this, and almost always want as little variance as possible, I can't blame him. A question I'd ask is, would you prefer a double elim tournament where the finals are a straight BO5 / BO7 whatever, or would you prefer a single elim tournament?

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Peleus

In other words
More games = Less variance = Better for skilled players
Less games = More variance = Better for spectators

I just want to note that this isn't necessarily the case, at least towards the "finals" end of the tournament. I get your point, but I would argue there's an important element to spectators which is getting to see their favourite players in action. I guess it comes down to people being "supporters" - it helps immensely for the wider audience to have a familiar name in the final match. I mean, if a final is featuring (to pick two names out of this thread) Rossi vs PiG, that has a lot more attraction to spectators than a final featuring IIIllIlII vs llIIllllI

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Peleus

The whole single elim vs double elim etc comes down to a balance between spectators and players.

The more games you play (BO1 vs BO3 vs BO5) reduces the variance so it's more likely that the more skilled player will progress. Double elimination vs Single elimination is another example of reducing variance through giving better players a comeback opportunity through the lower bracket.

This (almost) goes directly opposed to the excitement factor, where each game is more critical and important hence, more exciting for the viewer. Greater variance means even a lower skill player can win the tournament given a lucky run through the brackets and a few cheeses.

In other words
More games = Less variance = Better for skilled players
Less games = More variance = Better for spectators

So while I agree with Pig that it's unfair to forgive a loss earlier in the brackets, it probably would make the finals more exciting. As a skilled player, Pig should never want this, and almost always want as little variance as possible, I can't blame him. A question I'd ask is, would you prefer a double elim tournament where the finals are a straight BO5 / BO7 whatever, or would you prefer a single elim tournament?

In answer to your question Single elim over double elim with bo5bo7 finals any day. I don't think double elim can be fair unless it's always 2 bo3 finals. Otherwise you're just compromising the integrity of the format simply for the excitement in the finals.

I also don't like the idea of extended series i think it's so damn stupid that mlg use this system. It's like oh hey you beat him before? You get a lead even though you're both playing in the lower bracket, but just because he happened to drop a set to you, you get an advantage over him. Meanwhile you could completely avoid the person who knocked you down and never deal with that stupid disadvantage.

So yeah it's not just oh i beat him I want an advantage. If mafia/light lost to someone else and made it to me in the grand finals and I get no advantage I'd be just as mad. I'd basically be thinking "ok you get to lose a set and all it loses you is having to play some extra series... meanwhile I only get the one chance vs you despite winning all my series... wtf is the point in me winning earlier?"

As for ok you always start up say 2-0 in the bo7 if they come from lowers I think that's an ok final format... I suppose. Tbh though it seems like MLG just do it to dumb the format down so people can easily grasp it. You still get boring 20 minute finals when the upper player gets a 2-0.



In my eyes its either the current format which doesn't have a major problem or standard single elimination, potentially with a group stage. Either way there's bracket luck and just a variable in how many mistakes you're allowed to make before you're out. I just get annoyed that every tournament has decided that single elimination isn't valid at all and so I have to spend so long playing out each tournament I play. Also there's epically stupid wait times involved whenever tvt holds up a lower bracket. Basically I like me some Masters cup format once in a while. Single elimination, bo5 finals. Really clean and well run tournament that fits into an evening nicely and has exciting finals.

[|Erasmus|]

Just gonna say one thing: **** I love you unstable... you made a lot of fantastic points there.

[ETL.ViTaL]

lol just spent an hour watching and reading through this thread quite interesting

[Junho]

Everyone donate a $1 to Benji, he is doing it big for esports

[SFTAElessar]

I love this blog! its so awesome!